Which major Christian church in the U.S. is closest to the truth?

[Grailhunter]

Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gen 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Perfect:

Gen 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What does it mean to be perfect in God's eyes?

Abram walked with God. Noah walked with God, Job feared God.

So would that mean to be perfect is to walk with and fear God?

So by he , meaning Christ has perfected for ever those that are sanctified or set apart, consecrated, dedicated to God,
then those, meaning the sanctified will forever walk with and fear God.

And Enoch walked with God, and was not, for God took him.

That's how I understand it.
Is there another interpretation @Grailhunter ?

Hugs

Well it is a little complicated.
I have actually heard this explanation from a female professor at Cambridge University and a South Baptist preacher.
This here is the kicker.....
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I am thinking you noticed this is a little odd.
No one can be perfect much less perfect as Yahweh. But for Yahweh to have any relationship with us, we have to be perfect, without a single sin. That is we have never sinned in our whole life. In the Old Testament in the Holy of Holies there was a veil that separated Yahweh from people. Because if anyone but the priest came to close, He would kill them. Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.

Webster's definition of Grace....
Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?

I think in general in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or an emotion.

When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
The phrase "saved by Grace" has implications. For us to be in Heaven we have to be perfect without sin. Even in Heaven Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin. So in effect we are saved by Grace, because if it weren't for Grace we could not go to Heaven.

Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?

We are changed.
Yahweh turned all authority over us to Yeshua. He turned our sins over to Yeshua.
And Grace, the blood of Yeshua acts like a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and Yahweh does not see them. So as far as Yahweh is concerned, we stand before Him in Heaven sinless.

Of course, the best of us sin. And that is between us and Yeshua and our sins are forgiven by Yeshua if we ask for forgiveness.......

And there is another element that has to do with Baptism. You might ask yourself if Yeshua forgives our sins what is the purpose of Baptism? Before we are Christians the sins we commit are directly a transgression against Yahweh. Baptism is for the remission of sins. When you come up out of that water, as far as Yahweh is concern you are born....we call it born again. That past person and the sins that person committed never happened, that person never existed. At that point your sins are between you and Yeshua. And you ask forgiveness and He forgives you. So this is how we are perfected by Grace.

 

[Marvelloustime]

and now look at it . It has grown MUCH worse as the inclusive god has made great inroads into all houses
and its leaven has swollen them fuller and fu ller , till even now they add the greatest sin of all sins
UNBELIEF . JESUS is now being DENIED outright by even mouth . As
more and more join hands with a lie . A lie brakelite and their new
peace plan has denied the PEACE plan of GOD . WHICH is and was TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
thus to be reconciled to GOD and have peace WITH GOD .
SO conclusion . ONLY an anti christ and many anti christs would b ring in
this interfiath interreligious ecumiencal LIE and cliam ITS THE PEACE PLAN OF GOD .
SOUNDS to me like its A peace plan all right , BUT NOT OF GOD but rather of ..........
Who by PEACE shall DESTROY MANY . that be the dark one .

@amigo de christo

 

[Ziggy]

Well it is a little complicated.
I have actually heard this explanation from a female professor at Cambridge University and a South Baptist preacher.
This here is the kicker.....
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I am thinking you noticed this is a little odd.
No one can be perfect much less perfect as Yahweh. But for Yahweh to have any relationship with us, we have to be perfect, without a single sin. That is we have never sinned in our whole life. In the Old Testament in the Holy of Holies there was a veil that separated Yahweh from people. Because if anyone but the priest came to close, He would kill them. Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.

Webster's definition of Grace....
Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?

I think in general in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or an emotion.

When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
The phrase "saved by Grace" has implications. For us to be in Heaven we have to be perfect without sin. Even in Heaven Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin. So in effect we are saved by Grace, because if it weren't for Grace we could not go to Heaven.

Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?

We are changed.
Yahweh turned all authority over us to Yeshua. He turned our sins over to Yeshua.
And Grace, the blood of Yeshua acts like a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and Yahweh does not see them. So as far as Yahweh is concerned, we stand before Him in Heaven sinless.

Of course, the best of us sin. And that is between us and Yeshua and our sins are forgiven by Yeshua if we ask for forgiveness.......

And there is another element that has to do with Baptism. You might ask yourself if Yeshua forgives our sins what is the purpose of Baptism? Before we are Christians the sins we commit are directly a transgression against Yahweh. Baptism is for the remission of sins. When you come up out of that water, as far as Yahweh is concern you are born....we call it born again. That past person and the sins that person committed never happened, that person never existed. At that point your sins are between you and Yeshua. And you ask forgiveness and He forgives you. So this is how we are perfected by Grace.

I agree with everything you wrote.
But I don't think it's meant to be complicated.
As far as Grace also agree it is an event, a period of time , a covering, it has a lot of applications depending.
We are in the Age of Grace for example is a period of God placing his hand over our faces so we can't see his displeasure.
Because no one can see God and live. If perchance His face was a reflection as a mirror of ourselves, if we could see ourselves in His face, as we are and not covered by the grace that comes from the Lord, a pardon, a veil as it were, not that it stops us from seeing Him but he gives us grace so we don't have to see ourselves.

When He looks at us when we are born again, He sees himself in us.

I have serious brain fog today. I wish I could participate more in this conversation.
I thank you for raising the question.
Let's do more ok?
Hugs

 

[Soyeong]

Yeshua did not teach the 3 in 1 God formula for the Trinity and of course the word Trinity is not in the Bible. What Yahweh taught was that Yeshua was His only begotten Son and said He was very pleased with Him. Yeshua said that the Father loves Him. Yeshua said that Yahweh was His Father over 50 times. He said that He did not do his will but the will of the Father. Yeshua said that He did not know the end of time but Yahweh did. At no time does anyone in the Bible say that Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit are one. Yeshua explained the oneness concept. Yeshua said that Yahweh was His God and He prayed to Him. The Apostles called Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord. The scriptures say that Yeshua ascended to the Father and sit on His right hand.

What does that have to do with the post that you were responding to?

 

[Grailhunter]

What does that have to do with the post that you were responding to?

Soyeong said:
Like I said, following what Christ taught is for Christians. It is contradictory for someone to want to be a Christian while not wanting to follow what Christ taught.

What He taught and what He did not teach.

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong said:
Like I said, following what Christ taught is for Christians. It is contradictory for someone to want to be a Christian while not wanting to follow what Christ taught.

What He taught and what He did not teach.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example.

Ya know there is a reason that a good Theologian has to wear many hats. Besides knowing the scriptures he has to be a historian, linguist, anthropologist, amongst other things.
We read the scriptures and do our best to understand them in the modern sense, but to get their true meaning you have to consider the circumstances and conditions and scenario of the time period in which they were written.

So what do you think Yeshua should have preached during period of time that was still the Old Covenant.
Preaching the Torah was correct. Preaching obedience to the Mosaic Law was correct.
At that point they were practicing polygamy and selling their daughters as sex slaves. Sacrificing animals in the Temple on the Saturday Jewish Sabbath.

Even after Yeshua's passing the Jews and Jewish-Christians were doing a lot of this stuff. Neither the Old or New Testament put a moratorium on polygamy, concubinage, and slavery. Yes the Torah supported and regulated polygamy, concubinage, and slavery. And there are reasons why Yeshua did not speak against polygamy, and concubinage, and slavery. Could have, should have Yeshua told those Jews that had fives wives that if they wanted to be saved and be a Christian, they would have to divorce 4 of their wives?

And then things changed.....Yeshua converted Paul. Paul and eventually Peter taught that Christians are not under the Law....none of them. The Gentile-Christians were taught the morals of Yeshua. The Gentile converts brought in the custom of wedding ceremonies and they worshipped on Sunday calling it the Lord's Day. Now the Gentile-Pagans had some pretty weird relationship practices, but they did not sell their children as sex slaves. And they did not practice polygamy so the Gentile-Christians did not have much of this going on, put enough that Paul had to stipulate that church leaders could only or had to be the husband of one wife.

So things change and to understand the scriptures it is good to consider that.

 

[Brakelite]

That quotation proves nothing except that Ellen White knew how to use biblical words.

The issue is not whether she sometimes wrote about Christ, grace, faith, or imputed righteousness. False teachers often mix truth with error. That is what makes them dangerous. A cup of poison does not become safe because most of it is water.

You claimed opponents offer “accusations without evidence,” but the evidence is in the doctrines themselves. Scripture does not teach an investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Scripture does not make seventh-day Sabbath observance a test of Christian faithfulness. Scripture does not authorize Ellen White as a prophetic interpreter of the Bible.

Paul did not say to accept a teacher because some of his words sound orthodox. He said, “Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:8.

The apostles taught that Christ “by one offering hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14. They taught, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday…or of the sabbath days” ~Colossians 2:16. Ellen White and Adventism add doctrines and obligations that the apostles did not teach.

Quoting one carefully selected paragraph does not erase those errors. Stop asking people to judge Ellen White by her best-sounding statements. Judge every doctrine she taught by Scripture. When that is done honestly, her claimed prophetic authority collapses.

Are you so seriously prejudiced that you believe Adventists, for the last 160 years, glossed over or were blind to Ellen White's duplicity as you describe? That we have to search through thousands of manuscripts and dozens of books and countless articles to squirrel out one or two legit biblical examples of bible truth in the midst of a mass of gross error?

Allow me to give you an opportunity to prove your theory.
Read her most published and most printed book, Steps to Christ. Surely in one of her books you will find a lot of error right? Or how about The Story of Redemption?

And regarding the investigative judgment. Answer me a few questions.
Do judges investigate the lives of those who stand before them accused of crimes?
Why would God not do the same when in Daniel there are several texts describing a court sitting on heaven?
Does that court sitting take place before Christ comes, or after?
If not before, how then do the angels know who to harvest and who to leave?
Are not the fruits a sign of a ripe harvest... are the fruits taken at harvest, or later?
When is the harvest?

You answer the above questions honestly and you cannot help but conclude that there must be a pre-advent judgment.

Final question. Where does the judgment take place between the sheep and the goats, upon which decisions are made regarding eternal destiny? On earth, or in heaven? If in heaven, how do the goats gain entry?
And when? surely it must be prior to the second coming at which time is the harvest and the resurrection of the saints.
"Behold I come quickly, to give every man the reward according to his works". When were those decisions made regarding such rewards?

 

[bdavidc]

Are you so seriously prejudiced that you believe Adventists, for the last 160 years, glossed over or were blind to Ellen White's duplicity as you describe? That we have to search through thousands of manuscripts and dozens of books and countless articles to squirrel out one or two legit biblical examples of bible truth in the midst of a mass of gross error?

Allow me to give you an opportunity to prove your theory.
Read her most published and most printed book, Steps to Christ. Surely in one of her books you will find a lot of error right? Or how about The Story of Redemption?

And regarding the investigative judgment. Answer me a few questions.
Do judges investigate the lives of those who stand before them accused of crimes?
Why would God not do the same when in Daniel there are several texts describing a court sitting on heaven?
Does that court sitting take place before Christ comes, or after?
If not before, how then do the angels know who to harvest and who to leave?
Are not the fruits a sign of a ripe harvest... are the fruits taken at harvest, or later?
When is the harvest?

You answer the above questions honestly and you cannot help but conclude that there must be a pre-advent judgment.

Final question. Where does the judgment take place between the sheep and the goats, upon which decisions are made regarding eternal destiny? On earth, or in heaven? If in heaven, how do the goats gain entry?
And when? surely it must be prior to the second coming at which time is the harvest and the resurrection of the saints.
"Behold I come quickly, to give every man the reward according to his works". When were those decisions made regarding such rewards?

You are assuming what you need to prove. Yes, Scripture teaches judgment. No, Scripture does not teach an investigative judgment beginning in 1844. That date is not in Daniel 7, Matthew 25, Revelation 22, or anywhere else in the Bible.

God does not investigate people because He lacks information. “All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do” ~Hebrews 4:13. “The Lord knoweth them that are his” ~2 Timothy 2:19. Christ already knows His sheep ~John 10:14.

Daniel 7 describes God judging evil kingdoms and vindicating the saints. It says nothing about Christ beginning a review of professing Christians in 1844.

The angels do not need an investigative judgment to know whom to gather. Christ sends them. “The Son of man shall send forth his angels” ~Matthew 13:41. They obey Him because He already knows who belongs to Him.

Matthew 25 also does not support your claim. It says, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory…then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” ~Matthew 25:31. The judgment described there takes place when Christ comes. The goats do not enter heaven. That idea is not in the passage.

Revelation 22:12 says Christ brings His reward with Him. It does not say He began investigating believers in 1844. You are reading Adventist doctrine into the verse.

Hebrews is clear that Christ’s saving work is complete:

“By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us” ~Hebrews 9:12.

“After he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” ~Hebrews 10:12.

“By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14.

That is a finished sacrifice and eternal redemption. It is not an unfinished process that required a new phase in 1844.

As for Steps to Christ, one book containing biblical language proves nothing about Ellen White’s prophetic authority. False teachers do not have to be wrong in every sentence. They only need to add doctrines God never taught.

You have proved that the Bible teaches judgment. Nobody denied that. You have not proved the investigative judgment, the year 1844, or Ellen White’s prophetic authority from Scripture.

Those are Adventist claims, not biblical teaching.

 

[Brakelite]

God does not investigate people because He lacks information. “All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do” ~Hebrews 4:13. “The Lord knoweth them that are his” ~2 Timothy 2:19. Christ already knows His sheep ~John 10:14.

Ask things are naked and open to Him. But what about the 2/3 of the angelic population that remained faithful to God and refused to rebel? The one planet in the universe that rebelled and sinned against God, why should God not reveal the fairness and justice behind His decision making in power to reassure the angels there that those they are going to be taking back to glory won't be inciting another rebellion? The closest angel to the throne Lucifer rebelled, who should we trust these weak sinful humans?

No, Scripture does not teach an investigative judgment beginning in 1844. That date is not in Daniel 7,

True, the time factor is in Daniel 8. And the exclamation of its beginning is in Daniel 9. But thy event itself is described in Daniel 7. 3 times.

The angels do not need an investigative judgment to know whom to gather. Christ sends them. “The Son of man shall send forth his angels” ~Matthew 13:41. They obey Him because He already knows who belongs to Him.

He knows, they don't. And nether do you.

Hebrews is clear that Christ’s saving work is complete:

Really? Them how come you and I became Christians? How come the church even came into existence of everything Christ was to accomplish stopped at Calvary?

That is a finished sacrifice and eternal redemption. It is not an unfinished process that required a new phase in 1844.

If it finished at Calvary then they would not have been a Pentecost.

As for Steps to Christ, one book containing biblical language proves nothing about Ellen White’s prophetic authority. False teachers do not have to be wrong in every sentence. They only need to add doctrines God never taught.

You didn't read it did you. I offered that as a challenge to see how sincere you are. Is a genuine enquiry into truth you hard for you that you have to rely on second hand conjecture?

 

[MatthewG]

No major U.S. denomination is “closest to the truth.” The truth isn’t found in a church brand — it’s found in Christ and in the teachings He gave through the apostles. Every denomination has some truth and some tradition mixed in. The closest thing to the truth is any group of believers who follow Scripture itself without adding man‑made requirements.

 

[Grailhunter]

No major U.S. denomination is “closest to the truth.” The truth isn’t found in a church brand — it’s found in Christ and in the teachings He gave through the apostles. Every denomination has some truth and some tradition mixed in. The closest thing to the truth is any group of believers who follow Scripture itself without adding man‑made requirements.

There are some that are pretty close.
Most adopted some of the Catholic doctrines like the 3 in 1 God formula for the Trinity and Augustine's Original Sin, or believe divorce is possible in Christianity, but those false beliefs do not threaten salvation. The Holy Ghost churches are very close because they incorporate the correct scriptures, except those that believe you have to speak in tongues at baptism or shortly thereafter to indicate you have received the Holy Ghost in order to be saved.

The Holy Ghost churches keep to the correct morals and worship together and Christian fellowship is common. But they are not the only ones that are close to correct.

Some churches/denomination believe baptism is just for show.....no spiritual effect. I do not think that works.
Some churches believe you should give ten percent of your income to the church over and above charity. Tithing is a Jewish belief. The scriptures say we should give according to our means, even if it is just a penny and give to charity.

 

[MatthewG]

I appreciate your breakdown, but a few of the points you listed aren’t actually grounded in the New Testament itself — they’re interpretations that different groups inherited over time.

For example:

• The Trinity — The “3‑in‑1 formula” isn’t a Catholic invention; it’s language Christians used long before Rome systematized anything. But salvation isn’t based on perfect theological formulas anyway.
• Original Sin — Augustine’s view isn’t the only historic Christian view, and the Bible doesn’t require agreement with his framework for someone to be saved.
• Divorce and remarriage — Christians disagree on this, but disagreement doesn’t equal loss of salvation.
• Tongues as proof of salvation — Acts never teaches tongues as a universal requirement; Paul explicitly says not all speak in tongues.
• Baptism’s meaning — It’s spiritually significant, but the New Testament never treats it as a magical ritual or a salvation‑meter.
• Tithing — You’re right that tithing is tied to the Mosaic system. The New Testament standard is generosity “as each is able,” not a fixed percentage.


The bigger issue is this:

No denomination is “closest to the truth” because the New Testament never tells believers to divide into denominations in the first place.

Jesus didn’t say:

• “Find the perfect church,”
• or “Pick the most accurate denomination,”
• or “Sort yourselves by doctrinal precision.”


He said:

• Believe in the Son,
• Love one another,
• Walk in the Spirit,
• Keep His teachings,
• Bear good fruit.


That’s the actual measure of truth.

Denominations can help or harm, but they don’t define who belongs to Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Trinity — The “3‑in‑1 formula” isn’t a Catholic invention; it’s language Christians used long before Rome systematized anything. But salvation isn’t based on perfect theological formulas anyway.

As you know the term Trinity does not appear in the Bible. The term was coined pretty early but it meant three. The three in one definition was defined by the Catholic church to stop the disagreement about the differences between God the Father and God the Son----like who was senior and the differences in their demeanor etc. The Catholic church made it a doctrine and enforced it upon threats of excommunication and death. In their beliefs you could not get to heaven unless you believed in the three in one formula for the Trinity.

 

[Grailhunter]

Tongues as proof of salvation — Acts never teaches tongues as a universal requirement; Paul explicitly says not all speak in tongues.

Agreed.

 

[Grailhunter]

Baptism’s meaning — It’s spiritually significant, but the New Testament never treats it as a magical ritual or a salvation‑meter.

The concept of born again come from the fact that Baptism is miraculous event.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1st Peter 3:21

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1st Corinthians 12:13

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Roman 6:1-4

I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11

And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; Matthew 3:16

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” Luke 2:21-22

Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, Colossians 2:12-13

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4

And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. Acts 8:36-38

For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5

For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:26

John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized John 3:23

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say baptism is optional for salvation or is not miraculous.​

 

[Grailhunter]

No denomination is “closest to the truth” because the New Testament never tells believers to divide into denominations in the first place.

There was effectively two denominations in the New Testament....Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians that believed differently and practiced Christianity differently. The Catholics believe in one faith and we all know how that turned out. Yeshua and the Apostle did not comment on the path Christianity would take. The Protestant reform was necessary. Once Christians got Bibles in their hands in the 16th century people interpreted the scriptures differently.

 

[Grailhunter]

“Find the perfect church,”
• or “Pick the most accurate denomination,”
• or “Sort yourselves by doctrinal precision.”

Again there is no scriptures about not going to church. There is no tradition on not going to church. The New Testament repeatedly shows Christians were gathering to worship the Lord. So Christians should go to church or gather to worship the Lord. But giving to the church is also noted in the scriptures Now common sense dictates that it would be good thing to find a church that preaches closest to the scripture.

 

[MatthewG]

As you know the term Trinity does not appear in the Bible. The term was coined pretty early but it meant three. The three in one definition was defined by the Catholic church to stop the disagreement about the differences between God the Father and God the Son----like who was senior and the differences in their demeanor etc. The Catholic church made it a doctrine and enforced it upon threats of excommunication and death. In their beliefs you could not get to heaven unless you believed in the three in one formula for the Trinity.

Agreed.

The concept of born again come from the fact that Baptism is miraculous event.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1st Peter 3:21

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1st Corinthians 12:13

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Roman 6:1-4

I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11

And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; Matthew 3:16

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” Luke 2:21-22

Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, Colossians 2:12-13

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4

And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. Acts 8:36-38

For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5

For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:26

John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized John 3:23

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say baptism is optional for salvation or is not miraculous.​

There was effectively two denominations in the New Testament....Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians that believed differently and practiced Christianity differently. The Catholics believe in one faith and we all know how that turned out. Yeshua and the Apostle did not comment on the path Christianity would take. The Protestant reform was necessary. Once Christians got Bibles in their hands in the 16th century people interpreted the scriptures differently.

Again there is no scriptures about not going to church. There is no tradition on not going to church. The New Testament repeatedly shows Christians were gathering to worship the Lord. So Christians should go to church or gather to worship the Lord. But giving to the church is also noted in the scriptures Now common sense dictates that it would be good thing to find a church that preaches closest to the scripture.

Okay. But I just live in reality. I know the harms that people do to others.


I’ll just continue to share where is needed and I just wanted to clarify on some things.

People read this material and they should not trust in their denominations they go to.


Trust is needed to be toward God and Yeshua… faith in them.

Church yeah it’s all cool and stuff very fancy yaya but people abuse people so I don’t really jive with that.

 

[MatthewG]

Here is copilots response to you,

Grailhunter, I hear what you’re saying, but I see things differently, and I’m keeping it simple.

On the Trinity — yes, the word isn’t in Scripture. Early believers debated the relationship between the Father and the Son, and later councils created a formula to settle those disputes. That’s history, not revelation. Scripture tells us not to “go beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6), so I stay with what the text actually says.

On baptism — I agree it’s important, powerful, and part of following Christ. But the New Testament never teaches that baptism itself is the source of salvation. The source is Christ, and salvation is received through faith.

Paul even said, “Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
If baptism were the mechanism of salvation, that statement wouldn’t make sense.

Jesus also said, “He who believes has eternal life” (John 6:47).
Belief is the foundation — baptism comes afterward as part of walking with Him.

Titus 3:5 says, “He saved us, not by works done by us in righteousness, but according to His mercy.”

As for gathering — meeting with other believers is good, but the New Testament never makes a building or a system the requirement. The early believers met in homes, outdoors, and wherever they could. The point was fellowship, not an institution. Jesus said, “Where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there” (Matthew 18:20).

I’m not here to argue traditions or systems.
I’m just staying with Scripture as written and living my faith quietly.