Who are the 144,000?

[quietthinker]

I accept the plain sayings of the Bible according to the normal use of language (as the writer used it), and I want evidence before rejecting that.

You say this but do you really think that when Jesus told his parables he was expecting them to be understood as per the normal use of language?.....and his reference to eating his flesh and drinking his blood, is that to be understood as per the normal use of language? I'm sure you get my point.

The book of Revelation tells us from the outset the messages were signified. What do you think that might mean?

 

[marks]

You say this but do you really think that when Jesus told his parables he was expecting them to be understood as per the normal use of language?.....and his reference to eating his flesh and drinking his blood, is that to be understood as per the normal use of language? I'm sure you get my point.

Are you remembering the Bible explains each of these? We don't have to rely on our own ability to somehow "discern" the "true meaning" of the "allegory".

Matthew 13:3 "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying . . ." We know this is a parable.

"My words are spirit", Jesus told His disciples, and explained to them what He meant.

Where are the words, This is a parable, this is a symbol, a great wonder, and this is what it means, this is how to understand it. We have those in a number of placed in the Bible but not here.

The book of Revelation tells us from the outset the messages were signified. What do you think that might mean?

I think it means the same as it means in other places it is used.

semaino

John 12:33 KJV
33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Jesus said, "if I be lifted up", which was to them as if we said today, "get the needle". An idiom of execution.

Jesus was specifying Him manner of execution. Revealing it. Making it known.

John 18:31-32 KJV
31) Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

Evidence of the same, this is Roman crucifixion.

John 21:19 KJV
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Same use here, Jesus made known what kind of death Peter would die.

Acts 11:28 KJV
And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Revelation 1:1 KJV
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I know, some think it means to "sign-i-fy", as if to convert everything to symbols. I stick with what the Bible itself calls a symbol.

The Revelation is the "Uncoverning" of Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[RLT63]

whatever that is!

Basically the idea that the Church replaces Israel. Here is an article on it from the premillennialism point of view. What is replacement theology / supersessionism? | GotQuestions.org

 

[MatthewG]

Even after sharing the commentary,

A possibly view that could be had here is these are at best the summation of how many people that had God marked on their foreheads, because there is something about the angels holding back the winds until the 144,000 is fulfilled.

You could see these 144,000 of the specific tribes actual believers since the ministry of Christ, and where the first ones of the Jewish nations of who willingly choose to put a mark of death on them for preaching and submitting that the Nazarene Jesus had rose again from the dead by God.

Therefore if you take in account of the listed names of the tribes; which Dan is said not to be listed in there; those would be the tribes that would have had their life dedication sold out for God and the gospel of Christ, that would be taken when Jesus came?

I could be wrong but those are just some of my thoughts.

 

[MatthewG]

Also consider this, a population of 144,000 is rather small as far as a blameless and pure church goes, in that time when Jesus was promised to return, and the Apostles wrote about that too with other believers they had wrote out to. I also consider those first early church believers who suffered terribly, don’t get enough credit considering they gave their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ, as they believed completely and truly from they heart, that God loved all, and to love others even your enemies. They were also watching and waiting to see him, and I believe they did perhaps as Jerusalem was starting to be completely destroyed, by the Romans. I wonder if the siege fell on a day when everyone was going to Jerusalem to have Passover. And then came the down fall.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Dropship]

Incidentally, why exactly 144,000?
Why not 143,999 or 144,001?

 

[ReChoired]

Who are the 144,000?

144,000, made up of 12 Tribes of Israel (Jesus, Israel of God; Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1) - Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin (Names, Character), both Dan (“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.” – Genesis 49:17 KJB) and Ephraim (“Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.” – Hosea 4:17 KJB) are not mentioned in this Revelation passage. See also Genesis 35:22-26; Numbers 1:5-16,20-46, 7:12-89, 10:11-28, 13:3-16, 26:2-51, 34:16-29; Deuteronomy 27:12-14, 33:6-29; Joshua 14:1-19:51, 21:1-45; 1 Chronicles 2:1-2, 4:1-7:40, 12:24-36, 27:16-22; Ezekiel 48:1-35 KJB.

12 – Service, Victory over self (Israel; OT – 12 patriarchs & NT – 12 disciples/apostles; prince or overcomer with God) and always being about the Father’s business, rulership (Esther 9:1; as the 12 hours in the day/night; John 11:9), purification (Esther 2:12), and 6 + 6 were the two stacks of the shewbread, a place for the Father and Son (Leviticus 24:5-6); see: Genesis 14:4, 42:13; 1 Kings 4:7, 18:31; 1 Chronicles 25:6,9-31; 2 Chronicles 34:3; Nehemiah 5:14; Ezekiel 47:12; Matthew 10:5-10; Mark 3:14-15, 9:35; Luke 2:42,49, 9:1-2; John 18:36; Acts 26:7; James 1:1; Revelation 7:3,4-8, 22:2. KJB

1,000 – The whole of Multitudes (Judges 9:49, 15:15-16; Job 9:3, 33:23; Psalms 50:10; Ecclesiastes 7:28; Mathew 18:24) or full measurement of something (Deuteronomy 7:9; Joshua 23:10; Ezekiel 47:3-5 KJB), whole unit (1 Samuel 18:13); or mighty Nation of People – Numbers 31:4-6 Deuteronomy 1:11; Song of Solomon 4:4; Isaiah 60:22; Daniel 5:1 KJB.

“Of the tribe of Juda (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:5 KJB

“Of the tribe of Aser (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:6 KJB

“Of the tribe of Simeon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:7 KJB

“Of the tribe of Zabulon (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph (were) sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin (were) sealed twelve thousand.” – Revelation 7:8 KJB

Judah = “Jew” = “I Will Praise The Lord” (Genesis 29:35)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.” - Genesis 29:35 KJB

Reuben = “Behold A Son” = “He Has Looked On Me” (Genesis 29:32)

“And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.” - Genesis 29:32 KJB

Gad = “Troop” = “Given Good Fortune” (Genesis 30:11, 49:19) (a troop is a band of persons who brings (back) wealth/fortune through conquering others, or those who overcame others victoriously bringing back spoils/fortune/wealth, etc)

“And Leah said, A troop cometh: and she called his name Gad.” - Genesis 30:11 KJB
“Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.” - Genesis 49:19 KJB

Asher = “Happy” = “Happy Am I” (Genesis 30:13)

“And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.” - Genesis 30:13 KJB

Naphtali = “Wrestling” = “My Wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)

“And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.” - Genesis 30:8 KJB

Manasseh = “Causing To Forget” = “Is Making Me To Forget” (Genesis 41:51)

“And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, (said he), hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.” - Genesis 41:51 KJB

Simeon = “Heard” = “God Hears Me” (Genesis 29:33)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I (was) hated, he hath therefore given me this (son) also: and she called his name Simeon.” - Genesis 29:33 KJB

Levi ** = “Joined To” = “Is Attached To Me” (Genesis 29:34)

“And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.” - Genesis 29:34 KJB

Issachar = “There Is Recompense” = “He Has Purchased Me” (Genesis 30:18)

“And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar.” - Genesis 30:18 KJB

Zebulun = “Exalted” = “A Dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)

“And Leah said, God hath endued me (with) a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.” - Genesis 30:20 KJB

Ephraim * = “Double Ash Heap” = “I Shall Be Doubly Fruitful” (Genesis 41:52)

“And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.” - Genesis 41:52 KJB

Joseph = “Jehovah Was Added” = “God Will Add To Me” (Genesis 30:24)

“And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.” - Genesis 30:24 KJB

Benjamin = “Son Of The Right Hand” = “Son Of His Right Hand” (Genesis 35:17-18)

“And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.” - Genesis 35:17 KJB

“And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.” - Genesis 35:18 KJB

Dan * = “A Judge” (Genesis 30:6)

“And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.” - Genesis 30:6 KJB

And therefore, by the special list given in Revelation (Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin) it is seen that the meaning is:

Now I Will Praise The LORD {JEHOVAH} (Judah) (for) Surely The LORD Hath Looked Upon My Affliction (Reuben) (and) Granted Good Fortune (Gad) (therefore) Happy Am I (Asher) (even though) With Great Wrestlings Have I Wrestled (Naphtali) (but) God Is Making Me To Forget All My Toil (Manasseh) (for) the LORD Hath Heard Me (Simeon) (being) Joined Unto Me (Levi) (and) He Has Purchased Me (Issachar) (wanting) To Dwell With Me (Zebulun) (and) The LORD Shall Add To Me (Joseph) (also) The Son Of His Right Hand (Benjamin).

A specific example of this may be seen from the Beginning (Adam, see 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJB) : Adam – Genesis 2:7; Eve – Genesis 3:20; Abel – Genesis 4:2; Cain – Genesis 4:1; Seth – Genesis 4:25; Enos – Genesis 4:26; Cainan – Genesis 5:9; Mahalaleel – Genesis 5:12; Jared – Genesis 5:15; Enoch – Genesis 5:18; Methuselah – Genesis 5:21; Lamech – Genesis 5:25; Noah – Genesis 5:29; Shem – Genesis 5:32 KJB

(JEHOVAH) God, through His Unique Son, who died (Adam, Red/blood), Gives Life (Eve), being pierced (Cain), and in the place of (Seth) mourning/sorrow (Abel), for Mortal Man (Enos), Obtained (Cainan), the Praise of God (Mahalaleel), for He Descended/Came Down (Jared), Dedicated/Walked With God and was not found, for God took Him (Enoch), and Whose Death Would Bring (Methuselah), Strength/Vital Force (Lamech), and Rest/Comfort (Noah), so declaring His Good Name (Shem).

 

[Enoch111]

Who are the 144,000?

The answer is staring everyone in the face. Those are redeemed Jews from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. And they are raptured to Heaven to stand before the throne of God. That is a shock to Jehovah's Witnesses, who are primarily Gentiles, but believe this little group is the cream of the crop (presumably all JWs). Of course that is nonsense.

'Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians from Pentecost of 33 AD until the present day will be resurrected to heaven as immortal spirit beings to spend eternity with God and Christ. They believe that these people are "anointed" by God to become part of the spiritual "Israel of God"...'

 

[Enoch111]

Incidentally, why exactly 144,000?
Why not 143,999 or 144,001?

Because in Scripture 12 is the number of divine government. 12 x12 x 1000 = 144,000. Thus there will be only 12 apostles of the lamb sitting on 12 thrones and ruling the 12 tribes of Israel. As far as God is concerned, numbers do have spiritual significance. Therefore there are also 2 x 12 = 24 elders surrounding the throne of God.

 

[ReChoired]

Those are redeemed Jews

Nope.

 

[quietthinker]

Basically the idea that the Church replaces Israel. Here is an article on it from the premillennialism point of view. What is replacement theology / supersessionism? | GotQuestions.org

do you understand why Jacob was renamed Israel?

 

[RLT63]

do you understand why Jacob was renamed Israel?

28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

 

[quietthinker]

28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

yes, Jacob the deceiver became the man who strove with God and men and prevailed. This is the story of all of God's people. It is not the story of the physical nation of Israel. National Israel murdered their Messiah and disowned him and continue to disown him. The mantle has now fallen to all who who have been reborn to a living hope.

 

[marks]

yes, Jacob the deceiver became the man who strove with God and men and prevailed. This is the story of all of God's people. It is not the story of the physical nation of Israel. National Israel murdered their Messiah and disowned him and continue to disown him. The mantle has now fallen to all who who have been reborn to a living hope.

And yet the sun came up this morning . . .

So, I don't agree with you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think God deals with Israel and the Church separately but I posted this thread to see what I could learn, not to show how much I know so thanks to everyone for their posts.

For me, the overall flow of this is,

At the close of this age, Jesus will remove the church as the 70th week of Israel begins. And God always has His witness in the world. So immediately after removing the church, He sends His angel to seal 144,000 of the tribes of Israel,

I think this will be their's,

Matthew 10:21-23 KJV
21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

They will go through the towns of Israel as the two witnesses prophecy, then halfway through the week they are translated into heaven, and the angels begin to fly with their warnings.

They - the 144,000 - are the firstfruits of the restoration of Israel.

As I see it . . .

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Who are the 144,000?​

The number 144,000 appears three times in the Book of Revelation:

• Revelation 7:3–8:

• Revelation 14:1:

• Revelation 14:3–5:

National Jews

 

[Aunty Jane]

The answer is staring everyone in the face. Those are redeemed Jews from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. And they are raptured to Heaven to stand before the throne of God. That is a shock to Jehovah's Witnesses, who are primarily Gentiles, but believe this little group is the cream of the crop (presumably all JWs). Of course that is nonsense.

It is nonsense to a great many, but that doesn’t mean it is wrong. What Jesus taught was nonsense to the majority of Jews in the first century. Their religious leaders hated him enough to want him dead. What does that say about what the majority believes?

'Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians from Pentecost of 33 AD until the present day will be resurrected to heaven as immortal spirit beings to spend eternity with God and Christ. They believe that these people are "anointed" by God to become part of the spiritual "Israel of God"...'

That is actually what the Bible indicates if you know who “the 144,000” are....those who will rule with Christ from heaven. They are not all from among literal Israel, as indicated by the apostle Paul who identified Christians, both Jewish and Gentile as “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) This is spiritual “Israel”. (Rom 2:28-29)

They are a finite and specific group whom Rev 14:1 tells us are “standing on Mt Zion” with the Lamb, which is not an earthly location but a heavenly one. (Hebrews 12:22).....And in verse 3, it says that were “bought from among mankind as firstfruits”....”bought” means purchased, as these are redeemed by Jesus’ blood, along with another group, (these are unnumbered) which are also seen by John attributing salvation to the God and the Lamb. (Rev 7:9-10, 13-14)

These 144,000 are “firstfruits”.....the first of a crop, meaning that these are the choicest, and personally chosen by God for their role in heaven...which Rev 20:6 indicates would be in the role of “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ in heaven over earthly subjects who are said to “come out of the “great tribulation”.

Being “firstfruits” means that another crop is expected. The Bible backs that up by Jesus telling us that he will call all the dead out of their graves.....he doesn’t call them from heaven or hell, but from the place where they have been “sleeping”, like Lazarus was before Jesus raised him and reunited him with his family and friends. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14) All of the first century resurrections were the same. It was a restoration of life demonstrated to a people who were never taught about an immortal soul.

The earthly survivors of the world’s greatest tribulation will be joined later by the resurrected ones whom Jesus will bring back to the earth to enjoy the benefits of God’s kingdom....the “new heaven” of Jesus and his 144,000 “joint heirs”, ruling over an “new earth”. (2 Peter 3:13)

This is what the Bible tells me.....@RLT63.

 

[Enoch111]

It is nonsense to a great many, but that doesn’t mean it is wrong.

Of course it is wrong. How can 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel be transformed into 144,000 Gentiles? That is the height of absurdity. And since we know that the redeemed in Heaven (both Jews and Gentiles in the Church) will be countless, it is bogus to begin with. See Revelation 7 for all this.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Of course it is wrong.

No sorry...it is only your opinion that it is wrong....who said you must be right?
According to Jesus himself, those he rejects at the judgment are clueless as to their not being acceptable "Christians". They give him their excuses and tell him all the things they did "in his name" and yet what is his response? "I never knew you" and then he tells them to "depart from him" because they only assumed that they were genuine Christians, when they never were. (Matthew 7:21-23)
"Never" means "not ever".

How can 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel be transformed into 144,000 Gentiles?

Who said that the numbers are only Gentiles?
The 144,000 were gathered from the first century onward, with the apostles making up the very foundations of God's Kingdom. All who received the "heavenly calling" were to make up the "body of Christ". The members of his body are his elect....(Col 1:24)
Galatians 3:26-28...
"You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus."

Many among the elect are females whilst on earth, but they are called "sons" even though their spiritual resurrection means losing all their earthly identity...no gender, nationality or social status will identify the144,000 "joint-heirs" once they are in heaven. They will be like the angels in that respect.

That is the height of absurdity. And since we know that the redeemed in Heaven (both Jews and Gentiles in the Church) will be countless, it is bogus to begin with. See Revelation 7 for all this.

No wonder Christendom rejects the idea of a ruling class in heaven who are specially chosen....it means that the majority of mankind including all who identify as Christians, will not go to heaven, because you have to be "called" by God for that role. (Heb 3:1) Only those taken into the "new covenant" will rule with Christ as a "royal priesthood and a holy nation" in heaven. "Kings and Priests" who will rule with Christ.....all personally chosen by God so that humans will have the best rulers this earth has ever seen.

Revelation 21:2-4 refers to mankind enjoying the benefits of Kingdom rule...Everything will go back to the way it was meant to be....
The "height of absurdity" is the belief that all Christians are heaven bound....why did God put us on earth if he was only going to take us to heaven? He already has a very large family of spirit sons, serving him in heaven.
Why did he put humans on earth?

 

[quietthinker]

And yet the sun came up this morning . . .

So, I don't agree with you.

Much love!

what has the sun coming up got to do with what we are talking about marks?