Rev.19:9 Who is saying this, and when were they called to the Supper? I want to make sure I get invited or am already invited?
Old Jack looking for his invitation.
Old Jack looking for his invitation.
Who are those invited in Rev.19:9?
- Thread starter shturt678
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Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh
will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh
will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Extract from Rev.2:7 in www.revelationsmessage.co.uk
Floyd.
[SIZE=14pt]V.7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](c)He that hath an ear, let him hear what the (d)Spirit says to the (Ecclesia) churches; to him that (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]overcometh[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] will I give to eat of the (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)The tribes of Israel, when they finally entered the promised land under Joshua (Jesus), were instructed to avoid mixing with the local tribes, and particularly not to engage in the pagan practices they would encounter. They were promised that Jehovah would be with them and that they would[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"overcome"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]their enemies[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]when they honoured Jehovah[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt],[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and witnessed to His Being,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the One True God. The[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"overcoming[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]empowering"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]was always contingent[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]on their faithfulness and fidelity to Jehovah.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] In this, as is recorded in O.T., they failed! In this case and the other Ecclesia (churches) of this Chapter and Chapter 3,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]faithfulness and[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]fidelity is again being requested and tested[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and where the Ecclesia successfully honour their Lord,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]power is given for overcoming.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] This[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]is reminiscent of Acts 2, and the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]empowering of the Holy[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Spirit, for the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]purposes of witness etc.,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]to the Jews first! [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]The strict principles of[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"First Love;" i.e. of Christ-Messiah,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and of Jehovah, are to be re-established. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]This establishment allows the candlestick to operate (i.e. glow, illuminate, oil flow,)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] so that[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]holding first principle[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]is the enabling of overcoming Satan's subtle lies and infiltration[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]into individual[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and group.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](b)"Tree of life;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]this first mentioned in Gen. 3:22,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and is to be the reward of the "Overcomers," (see Rev. 22:14.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]At the present time "life," is only[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]obtainable through Christ (Acts 4:12)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]no matter what religious[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]teachers on earth say. This is proof positive that the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"Grace"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]period is over at the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]time of these events described; and that[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"overcoming,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"works,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]are[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the new pre-requisites. As we know these events described[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]are[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]for Jewish groupings,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]they[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]may probably apply only to that nation. It is considered by many teachers that the Age of Grace ends at the start of the events of Revelation; this may or may not be the case, and other teachers consider a possible over-lapping of this Jewish period with the Age of Grace. See "Approaching the Bible" by Mike Penny, ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]www.obt.org.uk[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). This opinion may hold veracity as many consider that Christians (The Lord's Body) do not leave the earth until the Lord returns for the remnant Israel. What is certain is that as well as the special Holy Spirit enabling for these Jewish groups "Ecclesia," many of them and others are salvaged at that time[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]by their witness to the blood of Christ (Rev. 5:9, 7:14, and 12:11.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](c)Only the Lord Jesus ever used this phase, on 14 occasions: six times in the Gospels, and eight in Revelation. It is Christ Jesus Himself speaking; and He used this phrase only in the context of Israel![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](d)"Spirit"; third person of the Godhead Trinity.[/SIZE]
Floyd.
[SIZE=14pt]V.7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](c)He that hath an ear, let him hear what the (d)Spirit says to the (Ecclesia) churches; to him that (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]overcometh[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] will I give to eat of the (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)The tribes of Israel, when they finally entered the promised land under Joshua (Jesus), were instructed to avoid mixing with the local tribes, and particularly not to engage in the pagan practices they would encounter. They were promised that Jehovah would be with them and that they would[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"overcome"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]their enemies[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]when they honoured Jehovah[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt],[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and witnessed to His Being,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the One True God. The[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"overcoming[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]empowering"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]was always contingent[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]on their faithfulness and fidelity to Jehovah.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] In this, as is recorded in O.T., they failed! In this case and the other Ecclesia (churches) of this Chapter and Chapter 3,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]faithfulness and[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]fidelity is again being requested and tested[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and where the Ecclesia successfully honour their Lord,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]power is given for overcoming.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] This[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]is reminiscent of Acts 2, and the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]empowering of the Holy[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Spirit, for the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]purposes of witness etc.,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]to the Jews first! [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]The strict principles of[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"First Love;" i.e. of Christ-Messiah,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and of Jehovah, are to be re-established. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]This establishment allows the candlestick to operate (i.e. glow, illuminate, oil flow,)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] so that[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]holding first principle[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]is the enabling of overcoming Satan's subtle lies and infiltration[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]into individual[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and group.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](b)"Tree of life;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]this first mentioned in Gen. 3:22,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and is to be the reward of the "Overcomers," (see Rev. 22:14.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]At the present time "life," is only[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]obtainable through Christ (Acts 4:12)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]no matter what religious[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]teachers on earth say. This is proof positive that the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"Grace"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]period is over at the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]time of these events described; and that[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"overcoming,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"works,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]are[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the new pre-requisites. As we know these events described[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]are[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]for Jewish groupings,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]they[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]may probably apply only to that nation. It is considered by many teachers that the Age of Grace ends at the start of the events of Revelation; this may or may not be the case, and other teachers consider a possible over-lapping of this Jewish period with the Age of Grace. See "Approaching the Bible" by Mike Penny, ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]www.obt.org.uk[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]). This opinion may hold veracity as many consider that Christians (The Lord's Body) do not leave the earth until the Lord returns for the remnant Israel. What is certain is that as well as the special Holy Spirit enabling for these Jewish groups "Ecclesia," many of them and others are salvaged at that time[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]by their witness to the blood of Christ (Rev. 5:9, 7:14, and 12:11.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](c)Only the Lord Jesus ever used this phase, on 14 occasions: six times in the Gospels, and eight in Revelation. It is Christ Jesus Himself speaking; and He used this phrase only in the context of Israel![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](d)"Spirit"; third person of the Godhead Trinity.[/SIZE]
Thank you for caring again!RANDOR said:
I've been filling myself up with Matt.4:4, however don't mind joining you at the "Supper."
Old hungry Jack
Thank you for caring!Bible_Gazer said:
Sounds like our Lord Godman Jesus is speaking here, Rev.2:7, and not John? God gave me ears to hear thus if I don't 'hear' aright then I may have a forever problem, Matt.13:13-15. Excellent passage BG. Here its what the Spirit says, and not Jesus if I have this in the ballpark in the sense of Rom.10:17? Now getting little confusing for me, ie, we have the Person of our Lord and the Person of the Holy Spirit?
Old Jack back to the chalkboard with an eraser - Jesus speaking or the Holy Spirit here?
Thank you for your response!Floyd said:
I was just wondering if we should grammatically render Rev.2:7, "wood" or "tree," that is, I've always used "wood" (Gen.2:9, "the wood of life")? I've always enjoyed its fruit?
However is this really the Person our Lord Jesus Christ speaking when He isn't saying "What Iam saying to the Churches"? Or possibly in regard to the Second adn the Third; in the one you have the other?
Old Jack hopefully agreeing to agree more?
However is this really the Person our Lord Jesus Christ speaking when He isn't saying "What Iam saying to the Churches"? Or possibly in regard to the Second adn the Third; in the one you have the other?
Old Jack hopefully agreeing to agree more?
Your comments above re "John, Jesus, Spirit" speaking;
IPeter1:20-21 is clear; the Holy Spirit is the Author of all Scripture (the Bible).
Only anti-Trinitarians have trouble with this; and confused Christians !
Almighty God is SO Almighty, that ANYTHING is possible for Him, and in His "compound entity".
When this fully accepted; it opens many doors; which Satan's people successfully counter in many cases; stopping people from making progress in the Word; and (retarding Christians in their understanding) !
Whilst this Truth is doubted; it will allow Satan time to work more mischief with the Lord's Body !
Floyd.
Old Jack hopefully agreeing to agree more?
Your comments above re "John, Jesus, Spirit" speaking;
IPeter1:20-21 is clear; the Holy Spirit is the Author of all Scripture (the Bible).
Only anti-Trinitarians have trouble with this; and confused Christians !
Almighty God is SO Almighty, that ANYTHING is possible for Him, and in His "compound entity".
When this fully accepted; it opens many doors; which Satan's people successfully counter in many cases; stopping people from making progress in the Word; and (retarding Christians in their understanding) !
Whilst this Truth is doubted; it will allow Satan time to work more mischief with the Lord's Body !
Floyd.
Thank you for your response again!Floyd said:
Rev.2:7 I don't think this is so much of a anti-Trinitarian issue, but an issue regarding whether the Godman Lord Jesus Christ is saying: "The one having an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying..." or God the Holy Spirit is saying the former?
So your view is that God the Holy Spirit is saying "...what the Spirit is saying..."? In verses 5, etc,. "...But if not, I am coming..." sounds like the Godman Lord Jesus Christ is doing the speaking? God the Holy Spirit is already here, and doesn't need to be "coming"?
Thank you again,
Old curous Jack
In this case Jack. Jesus is speaking; as is affirmed in Rev.1:4; "from Him who is, who was, who is to come"; the same affirmation confirms the Godhead plural!shturt678 said:
In every case in Scripture where pronouncement is from the Triune Deity; it is only necessary by context to determine which of the Three is speaking, and for what purpose.
Why this is so difficult for some to grasp is hard for me to understand; but I accept it is; and await a chance to discuss it with the person.
As you know from recent postings here; some are not willing to move from their hard stand position.
I know from experience that those people are doing the work of Satan; because Satan wants people to doubt Jesus' Deity; as that makes them doubt their salvation.
That as you know is a vicious circle, which delights Satan.
What many or most people don't realise, is that the heart is what God is looking on in every person; and only He knows the truth of a person. Whilst there is a chance that a person will reject Satan's lie; He in the form of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, will keep prodding (like the Apostle Paul); until He knows the heart is committed one way or the other.
Floyd.
Thank you for your fellowshipping and response!Floyd said:
This is the closest yet where we agree to agree!!! :)
Old Jack
In order to make sense of Revelation 19:9, one needs to grasp the meaning of the Bible book of Revelation as well as Matthew 22:1-14. At Revelation 17, it describes a "prostitute" that is appropriately named Babylon the Great. (Rev 17:1, 5) What is this "prostitute" ?
It is seen as committing "sexual immorality" with "the kings of the earth".(Rev 17:2) It is noted as being massively blood guilty at Revelation 18:24. Who or what has become so intimate with the political leaders on the earth while slaughtering masses of mankind, especially "the blood of the prophets and the holy ones" ?
Religion, false religion. The religions of the "world", as compositely forming Babylon the Great, have swayed the political arena to her (or their) favor for a long time (having considerable authority with regard to United Nations or "scarlet-colored wild beast"[Rev 17:3], placing people of their choice in power (such as Pope Leo III crowning Charlemagne as emperor in 800 C.E.) as well disposing of kings, manipulating the political field.
And it is also seen at Revelation 14:1 that only 144,000 individuals are selected from the earth to become "kings and priests to our God" (Rev 1:6; 5:9, 10) so as to become "the bride of Christ", who is a "chaste virgin to the Christ."(2 Cor 11:2)
These are the ones, after receiving the "invitation", have proven "worthy of the Kingdom of God".(2 Thess 1:5) Jesus said those who comprise this "group" are "a little flock" (Luke 12:32) as compared with those of "the other sheep."(John 10:16, these are the ones whom Jesus said would "inherit the earth"[Matt 5:5])
Hence, of this "prostitute" with all her "children"(the various religions with their sects and denominations), Revelation 14:4 says that those who are "invited to the evening meal of the Lamb's marriage", "did not defile themselves with women; in fact they are virgins." These ones who receive an "invitation", remain spiritual "virgins" by not defiling themselves with any false religious beliefs and practices that Babylon the Great dispenses.
Jesus said that many who claim to follow him, would be rejected. At Luke 13, he says: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ (as the churches have said) But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness !’ "(Luke 13:24-27)
The churches of Christendom have professed to be Christ's followers, but are covered in blood (Isa 1:15), teach doctrines that are falsehoods (Trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, clergy-laity class, Mary mother of God, etc), allowing pagan dogma to be mixed in with so-called "Christian" teachings, such as the halo, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, the rosary.
At 1 Corinthians 6, the apostle Paul gives details of "morality" that is clean and unclean from God's standpoint, saying: "Do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom ? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom."(1 Cor 6:9, 10)
This rules out any who are of the LBGT (Lesbian, Bi-sexual, Gay, Transgender) community completely. Why ? Because Paul further said that is "yet that is what some of you were (past tense, showing that they changed their life course). But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."(1 Cor 6:11)
Those invited to the "evening meal of the Lamb's marriage" must be physically, morally and spiritually clean, for Revelation 19:8 says that those who attend have been "clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.”
Their "righteous acts" include fulfilling Jesus words: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19, 20) How many in the churches of Christendom go "from house to house" in search of those who are "rightly disposed for everlasting life" ?(Acts 13:48; Matt 10:11)
And at 2 Corinthians 6, Paul wrote: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have ? Or what sharing does light have with darkness ?..... “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.” (2 Cor 6:14, 17, 18) This rules out any interfaith association.
Spiritual as well as moral cleanness is an absolute requirement, for any who receive an "invitation" must have cleansed themselves of any tainting of false religion, such as use of the cross, the Trinity, veneration of "saints", of acceptance towards the LBGT arrangement as well of the political field, as well as human "philosophy".(Col 2:8, such as acceptance of evolution)
Thence, those who are invited to "evening meal of the Lamb's marriage" have proven themselves to be "clean" in all aspects, "clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones", proven "worthy of the Kingdom of God."(2 Thess 1:5)
It is seen as committing "sexual immorality" with "the kings of the earth".(Rev 17:2) It is noted as being massively blood guilty at Revelation 18:24. Who or what has become so intimate with the political leaders on the earth while slaughtering masses of mankind, especially "the blood of the prophets and the holy ones" ?
Religion, false religion. The religions of the "world", as compositely forming Babylon the Great, have swayed the political arena to her (or their) favor for a long time (having considerable authority with regard to United Nations or "scarlet-colored wild beast"[Rev 17:3], placing people of their choice in power (such as Pope Leo III crowning Charlemagne as emperor in 800 C.E.) as well disposing of kings, manipulating the political field.
And it is also seen at Revelation 14:1 that only 144,000 individuals are selected from the earth to become "kings and priests to our God" (Rev 1:6; 5:9, 10) so as to become "the bride of Christ", who is a "chaste virgin to the Christ."(2 Cor 11:2)
These are the ones, after receiving the "invitation", have proven "worthy of the Kingdom of God".(2 Thess 1:5) Jesus said those who comprise this "group" are "a little flock" (Luke 12:32) as compared with those of "the other sheep."(John 10:16, these are the ones whom Jesus said would "inherit the earth"[Matt 5:5])
Hence, of this "prostitute" with all her "children"(the various religions with their sects and denominations), Revelation 14:4 says that those who are "invited to the evening meal of the Lamb's marriage", "did not defile themselves with women; in fact they are virgins." These ones who receive an "invitation", remain spiritual "virgins" by not defiling themselves with any false religious beliefs and practices that Babylon the Great dispenses.
Jesus said that many who claim to follow him, would be rejected. At Luke 13, he says: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ (as the churches have said) But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness !’ "(Luke 13:24-27)
The churches of Christendom have professed to be Christ's followers, but are covered in blood (Isa 1:15), teach doctrines that are falsehoods (Trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, clergy-laity class, Mary mother of God, etc), allowing pagan dogma to be mixed in with so-called "Christian" teachings, such as the halo, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, the rosary.
At 1 Corinthians 6, the apostle Paul gives details of "morality" that is clean and unclean from God's standpoint, saying: "Do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom ? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom."(1 Cor 6:9, 10)
This rules out any who are of the LBGT (Lesbian, Bi-sexual, Gay, Transgender) community completely. Why ? Because Paul further said that is "yet that is what some of you were (past tense, showing that they changed their life course). But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."(1 Cor 6:11)
Those invited to the "evening meal of the Lamb's marriage" must be physically, morally and spiritually clean, for Revelation 19:8 says that those who attend have been "clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.”
Their "righteous acts" include fulfilling Jesus words: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19, 20) How many in the churches of Christendom go "from house to house" in search of those who are "rightly disposed for everlasting life" ?(Acts 13:48; Matt 10:11)
And at 2 Corinthians 6, Paul wrote: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have ? Or what sharing does light have with darkness ?..... “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.” (2 Cor 6:14, 17, 18) This rules out any interfaith association.
Spiritual as well as moral cleanness is an absolute requirement, for any who receive an "invitation" must have cleansed themselves of any tainting of false religion, such as use of the cross, the Trinity, veneration of "saints", of acceptance towards the LBGT arrangement as well of the political field, as well as human "philosophy".(Col 2:8, such as acceptance of evolution)
Thence, those who are invited to "evening meal of the Lamb's marriage" have proven themselves to be "clean" in all aspects, "clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones", proven "worthy of the Kingdom of God."(2 Thess 1:5)
Thank you for caring!Guestman said:
From my simple understanding, the way to understand Rev.19:9, "...that have been called to the supper of the wedding of the Lamb!...." is to first and foremost grasp the context. Coming into this passage contextually and grammatically, the wedding starts at the "1" future Return of Christ - the "1" Parousia.
Already now and not only at the Parousia we are blessed as "they who have beed called to the supper." We received the call at some time in the past, and ever since that time have that call and continue to have it. All those that have underwent a "born anew" event - Jn.3:3, 5 - in the name of the Triune God - Matt.28:19 - (Trinity - 6th century Athanasian Creed) are those "that have been called to the supper of the wedding of the Lamb."
Hell is a reality where we as the "called" don't want to end there for forever and ever. We do our utmost not to offend or provoke our Lord where one could end in 'helfire' (Matt.25:41) (Apostles' Creed).
Sous are immoratal (Apostles' Creed)
My end point: Those "that have been called" are those that have a genuine "faith" which is a trust in God's promise that is centered in the Genuine Godman Lord Jesus Christ produced by the Trinity who come to us in, by, and must be based upon the "Word of God" in truth.
Old Jack's view
Mystery Babylon;
Rev.14:8. V.8 And there followed (a)another angel, saying, "(b)Babylon is fallen, the great (c)city, (d)because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(a)"Another;" (Greek; ALLOS = another of the same kind.)
(b)"Babylon;" see Isa. 21:9 & Rev. 18:2. As mentioned in earlier chapters, Babylon is the source of all pagan religions, (in this Creation). That progressed strongly under Nimrod and his mother. Their work has spread worldwide, and their pagan heritage is in all countries, and as well as religions, is showing in all human activity.
As mentioned previously, all religions or human activity which does not acknowledge Acts. 4:12, is of Babylon! In V.8 of Rev. 14, we are told that Babylon is fallen! When that happens in the future, all the world's systems, governments, institutions, trade and commerce, religions and beliefs, ideas and opinions etc., will be brought to nothing, and will stand helpless before Almighty Jehovah Zebaoth!
(c)"City;" is not in the ancient text, in this statement the reference is to the great Satanic Babylonian force.
(d)"Because etc;" here is the simply stated fact that Satan has used all the human Babylonian endeavours to attempt to usurp God Almighty, and enslave and control human beings for his purpose. The words "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" gives the meaning to the methods of Satan's controls, using all human weaknesses.
Rev. 18. V.2 (a)And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "(b)Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
(a)Powerful messenger, and the message so joyful that the angel is bursting with power in the voice!
(b)See 14:8 and notes. Also, Isa. 21:9, 47:9-11, Jer. 51:8. The physical Babylon became desolate approx. B.C. 539, after the Medes and the Persians ruled, (Medo - Persian empire.) The angel's declaration concerns the great Satanic spiritual parallel, which has grown from the physical original, and has spread worldwide. This concerns all man's activities which are not under the auspices of God. Particularly; all trade, commerce, money making activity and anything related to world commerce, where a hierarchy of favour and coercion for favour from men/women is involved. There is probably no area of human activity excluded from the curse of spiritual Babylon, except "prayer and worship in spirit and in truth," John 4:23-24. We are all involved in the system at present, until it is brought to an end (see 14:8) and elsewhere, hence Paul's warning, (1Tim. 6:10. the love of money etc.) The Almighty's disfavour was shown when Christ cleansed the Temple in Jerusalem with a whip, of moneychangers and traders, (John 2:15,) (Psm. 69:9,) which is a precursor of the great fall of "Babylon!" (The error and sin was the use of the Temple for monitory gain and exchange, as opposed to another area without the connotation of Sanctity.)
Rev.14:8. V.8 And there followed (a)another angel, saying, "(b)Babylon is fallen, the great (c)city, (d)because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(a)"Another;" (Greek; ALLOS = another of the same kind.)
(b)"Babylon;" see Isa. 21:9 & Rev. 18:2. As mentioned in earlier chapters, Babylon is the source of all pagan religions, (in this Creation). That progressed strongly under Nimrod and his mother. Their work has spread worldwide, and their pagan heritage is in all countries, and as well as religions, is showing in all human activity.
As mentioned previously, all religions or human activity which does not acknowledge Acts. 4:12, is of Babylon! In V.8 of Rev. 14, we are told that Babylon is fallen! When that happens in the future, all the world's systems, governments, institutions, trade and commerce, religions and beliefs, ideas and opinions etc., will be brought to nothing, and will stand helpless before Almighty Jehovah Zebaoth!
(c)"City;" is not in the ancient text, in this statement the reference is to the great Satanic Babylonian force.
(d)"Because etc;" here is the simply stated fact that Satan has used all the human Babylonian endeavours to attempt to usurp God Almighty, and enslave and control human beings for his purpose. The words "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" gives the meaning to the methods of Satan's controls, using all human weaknesses.
Rev. 18. V.2 (a)And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "(b)Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
(a)Powerful messenger, and the message so joyful that the angel is bursting with power in the voice!
(b)See 14:8 and notes. Also, Isa. 21:9, 47:9-11, Jer. 51:8. The physical Babylon became desolate approx. B.C. 539, after the Medes and the Persians ruled, (Medo - Persian empire.) The angel's declaration concerns the great Satanic spiritual parallel, which has grown from the physical original, and has spread worldwide. This concerns all man's activities which are not under the auspices of God. Particularly; all trade, commerce, money making activity and anything related to world commerce, where a hierarchy of favour and coercion for favour from men/women is involved. There is probably no area of human activity excluded from the curse of spiritual Babylon, except "prayer and worship in spirit and in truth," John 4:23-24. We are all involved in the system at present, until it is brought to an end (see 14:8) and elsewhere, hence Paul's warning, (1Tim. 6:10. the love of money etc.) The Almighty's disfavour was shown when Christ cleansed the Temple in Jerusalem with a whip, of moneychangers and traders, (John 2:15,) (Psm. 69:9,) which is a precursor of the great fall of "Babylon!" (The error and sin was the use of the Temple for monitory gain and exchange, as opposed to another area without the connotation of Sanctity.)
Thank you Floyd for caring again!
Satan had a tremendous defeat at the Cross thus we need to know who this "Babylon the Great, mystery" is. From my view it's a little more in size, that is, is the whole world wide antichristian empire in the whole world. The two beasts in Rev.13:1-18 builds this empire.
Satan had a tremendous defeat at the Cross thus we need to know who this "Babylon the Great, mystery" is. From my view it's a little more in size, that is, is the whole world wide antichristian empire in the whole world. The two beasts in Rev.13:1-18 builds this empire.
- Once we also dial in the whole world wide antichristian seduction ("Scarlet woman - Rev.17:1) along with the empire, then one can be measured at Rev.11:1 and a part of the forever Rev.7 & 14 bunch.
The Harlotshturt678 said:
Revelation Chapter 17
V.1
(a)And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, “Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgement of the great (a)whore that sitteth upon many waters:
V.2
(b)With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabiters of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
(a) Here is detail about to be given of the judgement, by God, of the great whore, mentioned in Chp. 16. The Interlinear translates “harlot,” (Str. No. 4204,) which is the feminine of a group of words from 4202 to 4205, all concerned with pornography (Greek “PORNE,”) and prostitution. This should not be confused with “the woman,” of V.18! Whoredom in its original manifestations at Babylon was rejection of The One True God, by Nimrod and His mother. It developed into many kinds of perversities, but particularly sexual. (See Chp. 13,) which were (and are) used in pagan idol (Satan) worship.
(b) The kings have been (and are) obeisant to this entity. Whenever whoredom is mentioned in Scripture. It is referring to worship of something or someone other than the “One True God.” (2 Chr. 15:3,) (Jer. 10:10,) (John 17:3,) (Acts 17:23,) (1 Thess. 1:9,) (1 John 5:20.)
“The inhabitants of earth made drunk with her wine;” the kings lead the people. The people trust the kings, and shut down their own minds. The idolatry sanctioned by the kings placates/soothes the people (drunk,) and keeps them in order! For kings, read also governments.
V.3
(a)So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a (b)woman sitting upon a (c)scarlet coloured beast, full of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
(a) John here again taken in the Spirit (see Chp. 1:10) to be given explanation.
(b) The woman here and of V.18, is representative of “that great city,” i.e. Babylon, in its original, as the foundation (after the flood) of ALL REBELLION AGAINST GOD ALMIGHTY. (See Chp. 14:1(b),) under the initiative of Nimrod.
(c) “Scarlet;” the colour is startling, attractive, bright, however, in Isa. 1:18, Jehovah God gives the definition as representing SIN. “Beast;” see Chp. 13 and notes.
V.4
(a)And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, (b)having a golden cup in her hand (c)full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.
(a) “The woman arrayed in purple and scarlet colours;” purple representing royalty, scarlet representing sin, here clearly showing royal approval (i.e. kings of earth,) of the sinful way! (i.e. idolatry, and harlotry.)
(b) “Golden cup;” represents regal source, i.e. see Chp. 15:7.
(c) “Full of abomination etc;” these the practices and formulations, rituals of idolic and Satanic worship. Also; The "Ecumenical" movement, which denies Acts 4:12, Jesus Christ only, as the only way of Salvation; preaching "many ways to God," is in the same category!
V5
(a)And upon her forehead a name written, Mystery Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.
(a) Dr. Bullinger translates; “and upon her forehead she had a name written a secret symbol, (see 13:18 b,) BABYLON THE GREAT, the mother of harlots, (see notes (a) V.1) and of the abominations of the earth.” (Comp.) The name of the woman is therefore a secret sign or symbol of “that great city” which she personifies (see V.18.)
V.6
(a)And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and of the saints and when I saw her, I wondered with great (b)wonder.
(a) The “woman,” here shown to have drunk to excess the deaths of all who have, and will die for their Lord. See early chapters of Revelation.
(b) This word wrongly translated “admiration,” by A.D. 1611 C. of E. translators; which greatly misleads the understanding!
V.7
And the angel said unto me, “Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carried her, which hath seven heads and ten horns.
V.8http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter17.html
(a)The beast which you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into (b)perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the (c)foundation of the world, when they behold (d)the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(a) See: Chp. 13 and notes.
(b) “Perdition:” (Str. 684 = destruction, wasted, from 622 = perish, destroy.)
(c) “Foundation;” (Comp. App. 146.) There are two Greek words used in the New Testament, which the A.D. 1611 translators inconsistently used to arrive at the word “foundation,” clearly to suit their own dogma. In this case, the word “KATABOLLE,” they translated “foundation,” but it should have been, “cast down or overthrow.” The translation then would read,“in the book of life from the overthrow of the world.” The Overthrow in point, is that prior to the Creation Actions of God in Gen. 1- 2.
“The Body of Christ,” known before the foundation (overthrow) of the world, is by implication not on earth, (Eph. 1:4,) (1Peter 1:20.) (See Rev. 3:5 (c) .)
(d) Babylon is the candidate for this statement! She had been the great power early in all history after the Flood. She "was not" at the time John wrote; and she is the likely head of the future beast, here described (Chp. 13,) but in essence of the old area, now Iraq.
V.9http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Harlot.htm#V.9
(a)Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(a) “Seven heads are seven mountains; (see V.10, 11, 12.)
V.10
(a)And they are seven kings: five are fallen, one is, (b)and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space.
(a) Remembering that the criterion in prophecy in our opinion is when Israel is affected, and not "Lo-Ammi," Daniel 7 gives the likely understanding of the 7 kings listed;
— 1) Babylon, (Lion ) (one king.)
— 2) Medes &Persians, (Bear ) (two kings.)
— 3) Greece, (Leopard ) ( 2 kings,) 330B.C.-167B.C. Ptolemies & Seleucids, 167B.C.-63B.C. Hasmoneans & Maccabees.
— 4) Rev. 17:10, "one is," Rome, (one king.) These up to the time of John's writing.
(b) "The other is not yet come;" this seventh king cannot exist in power until Israel is again "Ammi," in the sense of Divine Prophecy, i.e. at the "covenant" stage!
V.11http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Harlot.htm#V.11
(a)And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
V.12http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Harlot.htm#V.12
(a)And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
V.13
(a)These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
V.14
(a)These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called and chosen, and faithful.”
(a) See chapter 13 and notes. Also Daniel and other O.T. prophecies.
V.15
(a)And he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues.
(a) Self-explanatory; all the peoples, religions, and nations are controlled by the whore (see V.1 & notes,) i.e. peoples etc., are holding sacred and sacrosanct, false values, worship, learning, knowledge and standards all of which stem from Satan/Nimrod; which leads them to many alternatives of worship other than the One True Jehovah Zebaoth, and His Christ! (Acts. 4:12.)
V.16http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter17.html
(a)And the ten horns you saw on the beast, these will hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
V.17
(b)For God had put into their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
(a) These ten kings will fight against corruption of a kind, and appear to be righteous! They apparently vanquish the worldwide evil standards and decimate the whore! If these ten powers are worldwide religions, this will be an amazing spectacle. However, V.12 says they are kings.
(b) The power of God here seen in getting the ten powers to clean up the world (in the sense of V.1 and notes,) and amazingly to give their “kingdom” (POWER) to the beast, led by the Anti-christ!, located in Jerusalem. By this he achieves a sense of false purity, (banning and outlawing prostitution and all its ramifications including child abuse,) and obtains support and “respectability.”
V.18http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Harlot.htm#V.18
(a)And the woman you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
(a) This “woman and city;” are popularly equated to Rome and the Roman church, as in V. 9 seven mountains are mentioned in her context. Amazingly most commentators agree on that interpretation. However, the writers agrees with (Comp.) that “the whore,”and her principle were active thousands of years prior to Rome’s existence. Rome and the Roman Church, is only an example, and a good one, of pernicious falsehood. As is well known they have placed a “priest,” in-between Christ and the individual, who must take “confession,” interpret Scripture, and deal with any and all human troubles, instead of Christ alone with the individual. In addition, they have added a layer of intercession i.e. “Mary,” whom they say must intercede for the individual with Christ. (2014: The Mary factor has been bolstered by numerous sightings by people worldwide which have been interpreted as Mary. It is the opinion of the writers that these are of the Enemy, to give credence to the Roman Catholic Church and their many non-Biblical teachings.) They ignore conveniently Scripture’s statement (1Tim. 2:5) “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.”
The “woman,” is apparently not the same as the “whore,” mentioned in this chapter. The Greek “GUNE,” (Str. No. 1135,) renders; “a woman,” “specifically a wife.” The two clearly are related in the sense of Revelation's dealings, see Chp.18.
CHAPTER 18
Note: What follows is a description of Satan's consort that has had and is still having such devastating effect upon the minds and bodies of men and women worldwide. The physical Babylon which was destroyed and has never been re-built, was the physical precursor to this great Satanic spiritual reality. (Many teachers state that the physical Babylon must be rebuilt prior to its destruction which they see as physical, as opposed to the spiritual which is our contention.) This Satanic consort is the great anti-thesis to that required by God Almighty of His Created beings, and had Israel remained faithful to their divine task of evangelising for the one True God, the True consort of Jehovah God would have emerged in the faithful wife Israel. However, as is now joyfully the case, Christ Jesus achieved the beginning of the same effect on the Calvary Cross, the completion of which is shown in the New Heaven and New Earth situation at the end of Revelation.
V.1
After these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power: and the earth was lightened with his glory.
V.2http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Harlot.htm#V.2
(a)And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, “(b)Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
(a) Powerful messenger, and the message so joyful that the angel is bursting with power in the voice!
(b) See 14:8http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter14.html#V.8 and notes. Also, Isa. 21:9, 47:9-11, Jer. 51:8. The physical Babylon became desolate approx. B.C. 539, after the Medes and the Persians ruled (Medo – Persian empire.) The angel’s declaration concerns the great Satanic spiritual parallel, which has grown from the physical original, and has spread worldwide. This concerns all man’s activities which are not under the auspices of God. Particularly; all trade, commerce, money making activity and anything related to world commerce where a hierarchy of favour and coercion for favour from men/women is involved. There is probably no area of human activity excluded from the curse of spiritual Babylon, except "prayer and worship in spirit and in truth," John 4:23-24. We are all involved in the system at present, until it is brought to an end (see 14:8) and elsewhere, hence Paul's warning, (1Tim. 6:10.)
The Almighty’s disfavour was shown when Christ cleansed the Temple in Jerusalem with a whip, of money-changers and traders, (John 2:15,) (Psm. 69:9,) which is a precursor of the great fall of “Babylon!”
V.3
(a)For all nations have drunk of the wine of her fornication, and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.”
(a) The clear message is that kings, merchants and people, have “idolised,” Babylon in trade, favour, privilege etc., have grown rich in this idolatry (harlotry!) Their god therefore is riches and gain, power, instead of Jehovah Zebaoth!
V.4
(a)And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(a) “Come out of her my people;” see Isa. 10:20-24. (See Chp. 14:14-16 and notes.)
V.5
(a)For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(a) “The woman; spiritual Babylon,” is about to receive the justice of God.
V.6
Reward her even as she rewarded you, and punish her double according to her works: in the cup which she has filled, fill double for her punishment.
V.7
How much she has glorified herself, and lived luxuriously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she said in her heart, “(a)I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow!”
(a) “I sit a queen;” in Chp. 17:18, she is described as “The woman,” Interlinear translates the Greek “GUNE,” (Str. No. 1135,) as “particularly a wife.” As the O.T. Israel was the “GUNE” (HEBREW “ISHSHAH”) the unfaithful wife of Jehovah, (Hos. 1-2,) so here “the woman,” “Babylon,” is the harlot of Satan (Isaiah 47:5,7,8, and the whole chapter. Also Jer. 44) She is a queen only whilst Satan is the “Prince of the Power of the Air,” the god of this world, (2 Cor. 4:4.) Satan however is about to lose all power on earth, (Chp. 20:1-3.)
V.8http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Harlot.htm#V.8
(a)Therefore shall her plagues come (b)in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God judging her.
(a) The fire judgement, see (Chp. 19:20) (20:15.)
(b) Isaiah 47:9.
V.9
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
V.10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, "Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in (a)one hour is thy judgement come!
(a) When the time is reached (God’s timing is perfect,) the judgement is extremely swift! (Isaiah 47:9, 11,15 etc.)
V.11
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buys their merchandise any more.
V.12
(a)The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner of vessels of ivory, and all manner of vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
V.13
And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and men.
(a) The list of luxurious goods, leading finally to men! The bodies of people! (Comp. page 1907.) (Isaiah 47.)
V.14
(a)And the fruits that thy soul lusteth after are departed from thee, and all things that were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
(a) All merchants, traders, sellers, ship owners etc., that relied on the power of “the woman,” for their livelihood mourn her demise with great sorrow. All of these people (many millions)would be marked and owned by the beast, if the marking has world-wide application as opposed to Israel only.
V.15
(a)The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand a far off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing.
(a) Isaiah 47:15.
V.16
Saying, Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones, and pearls!
V.17
For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
V.18
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, what city is like unto this great city!
V.19
And they cast dust onto their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, “Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea, by reason of her costliness! For in one hour is she made desolate!"
V.20
(a)Rejoice over her, thou heaven and you saints, apostles and prophets; for God has avenged you on her.
(a) This long awaited sentence on “the woman,” much celebrated in heaven, and clearly seen by the saints, apostles and prophets, at the time of its enactment!
V.21
(a)And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
V.22
And the voice of harpers and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsmen, of whatever craft, shall be found anymore in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
V.23
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; (b)for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."
(a) The sentence of “Babylon; the woman,” detailed.
(b) Her great seductive powers, and Satan’s power (sorceries,) brought the earth (nations) to ruin, compared with the plan of Jehovah Zebaoth! She is the great attraction as the consort to Satan, but is not recognised, as yet by the nations of the world!
V.24
(a)And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, (b)and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(a) All who stood against her/Satan, prophets, saints were slain.
(b) This in Interlinear reads, “and all of those having been slain.” I.e. all men and women who opposed “the woman,” throughout the Ages.
Thank you so much my brother!
Just received my red correction pens, and flattening the Bell Curve, forced to give you a "C" on this one, agreeing to disagree. The agape of the Word that you have!!!
Will spend this afternoon, Hawaiian time, going over your post a 2nd time scrutinizing - I know I'll enjoy.
Old Jack
I thought only our gov't. could make perfectly good ink, and cover the paper with it resulting in worthless paper? Just joking my brother. Sorry, I know I need to be more serious.
Just received my red correction pens, and flattening the Bell Curve, forced to give you a "C" on this one, agreeing to disagree. The agape of the Word that you have!!!
Will spend this afternoon, Hawaiian time, going over your post a 2nd time scrutinizing - I know I'll enjoy.
Old Jack
I thought only our gov't. could make perfectly good ink, and cover the paper with it resulting in worthless paper? Just joking my brother. Sorry, I know I need to be more serious.
You gotta be serious on the Bible Jack:shturt678 said:
How did the surgery go?
See below, the great hoodwink of Satan on the worlds people; including you!
Floyd.
Babylon
The origin of Babylon is well documented in Genesis 10:10, and was originally called "Babel" (in the Semitic = "Bab-ili" = "the gate of the god"; Comp. Bible).
In Genesis 11:2 onwards, is given the account of the building of Bab-ili "in the land of Shinar", and in v6 the consternation of the Godhead regarding the speed of progress of the people in intellectual and physical development; because of their condition "as gods", which was due to Satan's successful assault on Eve and Adam in Genesis 3, and its results up to that point in Shinar!
The fact of their common language allowed very quick communication and development of ideas, which, had it been allowed to continue, would have thwarted the Plan of God embodied in Genesis 3:15; the Promise of Messiah, to save the human race from the clutches and destruction of Satan!
The Plan of God had to be allowed to develop to the stage we are at now, with Israel the focus point of all the world's conflict and antipathy, yet to be resolved at Armageddon!
Satan's object was to do just that, and to thwart the birth of Messiah, and ultimately the Salvation of some of the human race.
To that end, The Godhead descended to earth (Gen. 11:7) and dispersed the human race together with their language, to enable the timespan that God has ordained should transpire in His Plan of Salvation; and His dealing with "the mystery of iniquity" (2Thess. 2:7).
It is interesting to note that in Gen. 11:7 is the second reference to the Godhead plural!
In the dispersion of those early humans after the flood, God shows His oversight on earth of His Salvation Plan, which despite the efforts of Satan to undo (see Job), must reach the ordained timespan within the rules of engagement between God and Satan.
It is interesting to note now the level of mental and physical development on earth, with the very easy and quick communications prevalent, which have enabled unprecedented technology and invention; which as God has allowed this stage to be reached must auger prophetic fulfilment regarding Israel and the Second Advent of Christ Jesus very soon!
These brief comments on the origin of the city of Babylon, are to introduce an opinion regarding Babylonian prophecy, which is contrary to many commentators. In the main they consider that Babylon the city must be rebuilt from its current ruined state, and that it must be destroyed again in the wrath of God on the nations, as described in Jeremiah 51 and Revelation, during "the Day of Jehovah Zebaoth" see: [Rev. 1:10 and many places in the Old Testament (OT)].
Bearing in mind that this is only an opinion, and that the physical ancient Babylon may yet be rebuilt and again destroyed, the following are comments that reason for the view that "mystery Babylon" is an evil spirit entity, which has never yet been destroyed and must be, together with the "binding of Satan" (Rev. 20:1-3).
Remembering the original name of Bab-ili means "the gate of the god"; that clearly means the gate of the god Satan, who is the god of this world (Jhn. 2:31,14:30,16:11,Eph. 2:2). A little more of the history of Babylon helps to illuminate the point.
Babylon as is well known was founded by Nimrod, whose father was Cush and Grandfather Ham! Nimrod was "great in rebellion against God" Gen. 10:9, (the standard translation in the AV is "a mighty hunter before the Lord," but on remembering their role in Babylon and the tower of Babel, the favourable AV translation does not fit the context of his life, and Dr. Bullinger and others translate "before" as "in defiance" which is certainly correct.) Babylon became the fountainhead of Satanic opposition to Jehovah God, until its destruction, and the removal of its priests to Pergamos (Anatolia; modern day Turkey).
Canaan was the son of Ham and uncle to Nimrod [Gen. 10:6], and his purpose was to thwart the Messiah line from Genesis (Gen. 3:15).
Historians date early Babylon as approx. 23 centuries BC; which corresponds with the Bible approx. dating's, (Gen. 10:8-9, 1Chron. 1:10.)
The city was destroyed in approx. 689BC, in one of its many conflicts. It was rebuilt shortly afterwards, and by the time of Nebuchadnezzar was at its Zenith (604-561BC;) and that was due to Jehovah God's permit for His purposes with His people Israel (Dan. 2:37, Deut. 32:8.) That period was to include the "Hanging Gardens, and the Ishar Gate," which Saddam Hussein failed to rebuild!
Cyrus' decree (2Chron 36) allowed Jews back to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple.
In 539BC, it lost its independence to Cyrus/Darius of Persia, who invaded Babylon successfully via the "water gates," after lowering the river water. This is recorded in Dan. 5, during "Belshazzar's feast!"
The Persians ruled until 331BC at the invasion of Alexander the Great; but by 141BC the city of Babylon was completely desolate; and has remained so since, (Jer. 51:37-64!)
As mentioned above, many respected Bible commentators and students, are of the firm opinion that physical Babylon is to be rebuilt!
Most use Zech. 5 as evidence, as well as Isa. 13 and many other references from Scripture. This must be a matter of individual interpretation, at different stages of history, with as open a mind as possible; prayerfully considered.
The main argument by those that propose the rebuilding of Ancient Babylon the city; are the many references to its destruction in the O.T. by Jehovah God, "In the Day of the Lord." It is our contention that Babylon the city, is confused with Babylon the Land, as in Scripture the land is referred to as Babylon, instead of "Babylonia" (i.e. modern Iraq.) This view is supported by such references as Jer. 51:43, referring to "the cities" (plural.) Also Jer. 51:29 and elsewhere "the land of Babylon!"
A further supporting comment is that even if Babylon the city was to be rebuilt, as such a small entity, it would not easily encompass the whole earth in its influence as the narrative of Rev. C
. 17 and 18 show.However, time will show the true interpretation.
Rev. 17:5:
(a)And upon her forehead a name written, (b)Mystery Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.
(a) Dr. Bullinger translates; "and upon her forehead she had a name written a secret symbol, (see 13:18 b,) BABYLON THE GREAT, the mother of harlots, (see notes (a) V.1) and of the abominations of the earth," (Comp.) The name of the woman is therefore a secret sign or symbol of "that great city" which she personifies (see V.18.)
(b) The word "Mystery" is disputed by different translations. Youngs literal has "secret." NIV notes that the word should possibly be excluded, but offers "this mysterious title written." Interlinear has "mystery." Darby has "mystery." RSV has "a name of mystery." Moffatt, "by way of symbol." What is reasonably clear, is that Satan has successfully tricked the world's population to believing the opposite of the truth! As the physical Babylon was destroyed and never revived, (Jer.51,) so here, the dealing is with its spiritual equivalent; which here is beginning its defeat at the hands of God; and the "stone not cut by human hand," (Dan. 2:34 and 45.)
The spiritual Babylon, equivalent and greater than the ancient physical Babylon, has/is having the effect worldwide that ancient Babylon had under its founder Nimrod, and his mother. They succeeded in turning people from the True God (Elohim) to many and varied pagan gods and practices, which have spread worldwide. Their main enemy and object was the God of the Hebrews (His chosen people) Jehovah; and Jerusalem His chosen Dwelling Place! Their assault continued throughout the O.T.; and since Acts 28:28, is also focused on all Christ-ones worldwide. The warfare with Satan and his spirits (demons) is now spiritual as well as physical, and is confirmed in the following references, and many others in Scripture: Eph. 6:10-18, 1John 4:1 to 5:8, John 4:24!
The reference to "Mystery Babylon" (Rev. 17:5), begins the possibly true understanding of Satan's consort, and the great anti-thesis to that required by God Almighty of His Created beings. Had Israel remained faithful to their divine task of evangelising for the one True God, the True consort of Jehovah God would have emerged in the faithful wife Israel. However, as is now joyfully the case, Christ Jesus achieved the beginning of the same effect on the Calvary Cross, the completion of which is shown in the New Heaven and New Earth situation at the end of Revelation.
The dealings of God with this entity described as "Mystery Babylon" (17:5,) has many commentators giving many differing views, and ours is maybe different again, but is worthy of consideration. It is notable that after Noah, Babylon quickly emerges as the prime City of the Biblical description, and was following the ways of Satan (prince of the world Jn. 12:31, 14:30, 16:11, Eph. 2:2.) In Dan. 2 is the description and interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the "image" (2:31,) the head of which Daniel showed was Nebuchadnezzar's Kingdom. His, and all the described Kingdoms that followed are the Satan system and have left their mark on the world's systems, and the ones yet to be will do the same; all in the power and effort of Satan. This we contend is "Mystery Babylon," and will be destroyed without trace (2:35) by the "stone" (cut without hands, Christ Jesus, 2:34.) The description of the destruction of this Satanic world system is just prior to Satan's "binding," for the duration of the "Kingdom of God on Earth" (the Lord's prayer,) which is also known by many Christians as "the Millennial."
Supporting the above idea, is the fact of anti-Christ's number (666;) Rev. 13:18 (www.revelationsmessage.co.uk), which in Greek gematria is "SSS," the ancient Babylonian secret symbol of the "Old Mysteries" which are in part all the pagan anti-God religions and practices of Nimrod and Babylon origin. This link with anti-Christ seems conclusively to point to "Spiritual Babylon," see (Chapter 13:18,) as does the reference in Zech. 2:6-8!
A further point for this tentative conclusion, is that as per Chapter 2:13, the "seat of Satan" after his ejection from heaven with his angels, is Pergamum, in modern day Turkey (ancient Greece.) Had Babylon been in existence in that future day, Satan would undoubtedly have taken up residence there, as it is his capital of evil power, in opposition to Jerusalem and Jehovah Zebaoth! Some might argue that Satan would rebuild Babylon from Pergamum, but he only has an extremely short time after his expulsion from heaven (Rev. 12:9), to his demise and binding (Rev. 20:1-3)! It is not without reason that his priests moved to Pergamum after the demise of Babylon pre. AD, as there must be a spiritual alliance between the two locations; (See: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk Chp. 2:12(a).)
The following is extracted from www.revelationsmessage.co.uk
The fact the Bible in Revelation 2:13 places Satan's Throne at this site is of great future significance. It is also of great significance that the priesthood of Babylon relocated to Pergamum historically! They are the servants of Satan historically, and all pagan worship originates from Babylon, and has spread to all points of the compass in various guises. Notably Buddhism, Islam, Sun and Star Worship in various forms from Egypt, Asia and South America, etc., and many of these religions are now substantially under the heading of the New Age Movement. There is considerable concern among Christians who can discern, regarding the Ecumenical movement. The major problem is that of the slow acceptance by previously Christian groups and Denominations of Christ's true position as depicted in Acts 4:12, being avoided or even overtly eliminated "so as not to rock the boat." It is our view that as Rome carefully orchestrates the Ecumenical Movement, that at the appearance in the future of the Antichrist he will be accepted as the True Christ in His second coming by Christians, the Hidden Imam (the Mahdi) for Islam, the Messiah for the Jews, the 5th Buddha for the Buddhists, and for the New Agers, Maitreya.
All pagan worship is of the Enemy, and has only one purpose which is rebellion against the One True God, the Almighty. Its aim is to ensnare all mankind, to elevate Satan against the Almighty, and attempt to bring to nothing the great and loving work of our Saviour, Christ Jesus. As Satan has yet to be ejected from the heavens, he has yet to take up his earthly throne at Pergamum.
When Satan sets up his throne in this ancient Greek site, he will be at the epi-centre of his spiritual stronghold, which is why in the period after Christ's ascension, so much effort was expended by Paul etc., "in taking the battle to the Enemy," at his main location. That area will again be central in the yet future (Zech. 9:13.)
Prior to his defeat, the Antichrist will hold sway in Jerusalem, with Satan probably simultaneously in Pergamum. Satan cannot be enthroned in Jerusalem, unless he brings to naught the promises of Jehovah, which would now entail the complete destruction of all Israel. His emissary will attempt just that, i.e."70th week of years," Daniel 9.
Satan must continue his efforts to undermine God's salvation Plans, and as the physical effort seems to have failed, as evidenced by ruined Babylon, the spiritual action from him continues in the form of the great deceiver, in many guises!
Satan is "the father of lies," (John 8:44,) See: Father of Lies John 8:44 and has sought from Eden, since the "foundation/overthrow" of the world, starting with Eve, to pervert and thwart the Loving purpose of Jehovah God. That purpose is to Redeem mankind, whom He loves (John 3:16,) to establish Israel (The Bride,) to conquer and destroy Satan and his demons, and to eventually usher in the perfect state, (see notes C
. 11 and 12. www.revelationsmessage.co.uk )However, the lie goes on. It has continued from Eve in various forms, and usually men and women find the lie attractive in the form it is presented in their own life time. Instead of trusting, studying and teaching the Truth as God the Holy Spirit gives in the Bible, it is perverted, modified etc., to suit the feelings, dogmas, motives and perversions of fallen mankind. The most prevalent currently is "there are many ways to God." This one appeases the world religions (all of Babylon,) and even the pastors, preachers, vicars etc. in the Western world are now exhorted by their colleges, seminaries etc., "not to create waves," by preaching Christ crucified, and the only way of Salvation, (Acts 4:12 and elsewhere.)
Rev. 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, "(b)Babylon is fallen, the great (d)because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(b) "Babylon;" see Isa. 21:9 & Rev. 18:2. As mentioned earlier, Babylon is the source of all pagan religions. That progressed strongly under Nimrod and his mother. Their work has spread worldwide, and their pagan heritage is in all countries, and as well as religions, is showing in all human activity. As mentioned above, all religions or human activity which does not acknowledge Acts. 4:12, is of Babylon! In V.8 we are told that Babylon is fallen! When that happens, all the world's systems, governments, institutions, trade and commerce, religions and beliefs, ideas and opinions etc., will be brought to nothing, and will stand helpless before Almighty Jehovah Zebaoth!
(d) "Because etc;" here is the simply stated fact that Satan has used all the human Babylonian endeavours to usurp God Almighty, and enslave and control human beings for his purpose. The words "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" gives the meaning to the methods of Satan's controls, using all human weaknesses.
Rev. 16:19
And the (a)great city was divided into three parts, and the (b)cities of the nation's fell; and (c)great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(a) "The great city;" Jerusalem.
(b) "Cities of the nation's fell;" unimaginable devastation as New York, Toronto, Boston, London, Sydney, Tokyo, to name a few, the skyscrapers falling, the panic, the destruction, the desolation.
(c) "Great Babylon;" the source of all the world's pagan religions and Satanic systems, (see Dan. 4:30,) (Gen. 10:10,) (Gen. 11:9.) See also earlier notes.
The above shows the progression from the physical Babylon to that of the spiritual, which we postulate is the reality of the present day, and which is to be destroyed by Christ Jesus at His return to earth; quite possibly in the near future. When taking into account the current events worldwide, but particularly the events affecting Israel and her Arab neighbours, there is an urgency to the whole subject.
The above is not meant to imply that it is absolutely correct in its interpretation; but to be taken into account, and to encourage study by those who read it!
An interesting thought is that as Satan has fooled the world into thinking that he does not exist and by extension God, "Mystery Babylon" is his ploy in that endeavour! Almighty God (Jehovah Zebaoth) has an equivalent for this "age time;" that of the "Mystery Church," and the mystery of His dealings with and for Israel (Mk. 4:11, Rom. 11:25, 16:25, Eph. 1:9, 3:3-4, 3:9, 5:32, 6:19, Col. 1:26-27, 2:2, 4:3.)
This great mystery is finally brought to climax and fulfilment by God's release of the seventh angel's efforts (Rev. 10:7, 16:17,) and the destruction of "Mystery Babylon the Great" Rev. 17 and 18.
[SIZE=16pt]See also: [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]www.revelationsmessage.co.uk[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Rev Chapter 17 [/SIZE] Rev Chapter 18
Thank you so much brother Floyd for caring so much what Jesus did at the Cross, and having an obvious agape for the Word!
Regarding being more serious my brother, I had professors that were dead serious for a lie. I came away with the ancient languages using my G.I. Bill telling myself if I ever graduate, I'll be the opposite of them, ie, almost loling as God laughs at our calamities at times and expounding Scriptures in the truthful direction having been doing so for a long time - the loling part. I owed you this explanation my true brother in Christ. BTW they didn't like me too well, and I seen excellent Christians that couldn't take it leaving not graduating - some of the profs. were a rough bunch - not like RANDOR's "RUFF."
Just wanted to touch upon the concept of "Mystery" in the N.T. including Rev. of course. Musterion means something that's to be unveiled through revelation, and without the proper unveiling remains hidden, ie, especially passages regarding the Kingdom of God.
I went over your work several times kickstarting my day - thank you again my brother.
Old Jack
Regarding being more serious my brother, I had professors that were dead serious for a lie. I came away with the ancient languages using my G.I. Bill telling myself if I ever graduate, I'll be the opposite of them, ie, almost loling as God laughs at our calamities at times and expounding Scriptures in the truthful direction having been doing so for a long time - the loling part. I owed you this explanation my true brother in Christ. BTW they didn't like me too well, and I seen excellent Christians that couldn't take it leaving not graduating - some of the profs. were a rough bunch - not like RANDOR's "RUFF."
Just wanted to touch upon the concept of "Mystery" in the N.T. including Rev. of course. Musterion means something that's to be unveiled through revelation, and without the proper unveiling remains hidden, ie, especially passages regarding the Kingdom of God.
I went over your work several times kickstarting my day - thank you again my brother.
Old Jack
Those who are called must be "holy", having rejected the Creeds of the Churches. These include the Trinity, for the Trinity is a pagan doctrine that was absorbed originally from ancient Babylon. In ancient Babylon, there was the triune of Aner (representing heaven), Bel (representing the region inhabited by man, animals and birds), and Ea (represented by terrestrial and subterrestrial waters), as well as of Sin, the moon-god, Shamash, the sun-god, and Ramman, god of storm (although his place was often by Ishtar, queen of the stars).shturt678 said:
Jesus clearly showed that he is not part of a trinity, saying to his eleven faithful apostles: "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28) And at 1 Corinthians 11, the apostle Paul wrote that "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3)
And Jesus , in speaking with the Jews, said: "If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or (a conjunction that separates God from Jesus) I speak of my own originality."(John 7:17) And over at John 8, Jesus again says to the Jews: "After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. And the One (Jehovah God) who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him (not me).”(John 8:28, 29)
And in the Hebrew Scriptures, at Isaiah 45, it says: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. There is no God except me...... Who foretold this long ago And declared it from times past ? Is it not I, Jehovah ? There is no other God but me; A righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me."(Isa 45:5, 21)
The apostle Paul wrote that Jesus is "is the image (not God himself) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."(Col 1:15) Thus, Jesus was created, having a beginning , for he said in Revelation: "To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14)
Hence, any who accept the Trinity is rejected by God.
That has to be the most sillyist thing I have ever heard.... I mean really........really?Guestman said:
Here we have another taught individual.
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