Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?

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RR144

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Cannot agree there.....Adam's children had no choice but to be born with inherited sin, so Christ came to redeem Adam's children....there can be no redemption for Adam and his wife who had no inherited imperfection to blame for their disobedience. It was willful and deliberate and he was responsible for the death of all of his offspring, making him accountable as a manslayer and complicit along with the devil, because the devil could never have become a manslayer without being aided an abetted by Adam. The woman was deceived....but Adam wasn't, so it was his actions that condemned his children. He is not forgivable because Jesus did not die to save the murderer.
Your problem is that you're thinking as a human, "they were perfect, they deserve to die and stay dead!" But you need to look at the scriptures, and not only what they say, but what they mean.
Yes, a ransom is payment for the return of something valuable. In our case, the value had to be equivalent.....'a sinless life for a sinless life'.
This is also the principle behind redemption. How the redemption laws worked in Israel showed how someone in debt could be released from the servitude it demanded, if the debt could not be paid. A generous benefactor could pay the debt and free the person from servitude to the creditor. If his children were also in servitude which happened when the debt was large, they too could go free.

Cannot agree with that because the 'separation of the sheep and the goats' happens before the millennium begins. The goats fail to support Christ's "brothers" who are still in the flesh. So they are bound for the place that God has reserved for the devil and his demons, but who will only go to that place of no return after the final test at the end of the thousand year reign of the Kingdom.

Matt 25:31-36; 40...
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world."

Then he identifies why some are counted as "sheep" and others are "goats"...
"For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ . . . .

‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"


So the sheep are those who supported Christ's brothers on earth, and he counts those acts as being done to himself.....but the goats, do the opposite...they fail to support Christ's "brothers" because they don't believe that they are Christ's brothers, and so do not warrant such treatment.
When they ask how they had failed, Jesus says to the goats....
"‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

So not all who are alive today professing to be Christians, will pass that separation on the right side. (Matt 7:21-23) "Everlasting cutting off" means eternal death.
The reason everyone is born in sin and dies is because of Adam. Rom 5:12 says, “…just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.” (NWT). When Adam disobeyed, he lost his right to live and he lost his family’s right to live.

Under Moses’ Law, justice demanded “a life for a life.” This was God’s perfect law. If a man killed someone, he must pay with his own life: a life for a life. (Exodus 21:23-25; Deuteronomy 19:21). Jehovah solved the problem by satisfying justice with the Ransom price of Jesus perfect human life paid for Adam’s lost perfect human life.

The Apostle Paul uses the Greek word anti-lutron, signifying, “a corresponding price,” saying, “The man, Christ Jesus, gave himself a ransom [anti-lutron—corresponding price] for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Tim. 2:6. The Greek word lutroo is rendered “redeemed.” Prof. Young defines lutroo to signify “to loose by a price”—that is, to set free by the payment of a price. The basis or root of this word is lutron, which, as noted above with anti, used either as a prefix or a suffix, signifies a corresponding price.

Put in simple terms, Ransom means that something was lost and that you have to pay something of equal value to get it back.

Salvation comes by substitutionary atonement. One man, Jesus Christ, died for one man, Adam, so that Adam and all his posterity might live. The Apostle Paul outlines this concept of substitutionary atonement in two passages:

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Corinthians 15:21, 22​

“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Rom. 5:15​

Since the first man, Adam, was a perfect human being, it follows that Jesus, as a corresponding price, must also be a perfect human being and that the resultant life for Adam’s posterity must be perfect human life.

As Adam, through disobedience, forfeited his life, so Jesus, by his death, as a corresponding price, paid a full and exact offset for Father Adam’s life, and in consequence for all Adam’s posterity—every human soul—sharers in his fall and in his loss. With Adam redeemed, all his posterity are entitled to a resurrection from the dead to human perfection and a trial for life under the favorable conditions of Paradise Earth.

Until Jesus came, no human man could provide that Ransom price, because they were all sinners. No one was the perfect human equivalent of Adam.

Psalms 49:7 (NASV) “No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him”​
Romans 3:10 (NKJV) “There is none righteous, no, not one”​
Job spoke prophetically of Jesus Ransoming mankind and resulting in their restoration back to life and youth.​
Job 33:23-25 (NASV) 23 “If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him, 24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, ‘Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom’; 25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor”​
 

Aunty Jane

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Your problem is that you're thinking as a human, "they were perfect, they deserve to die and stay dead!" But you need to look at the scriptures, and not only what they say, but what they mean.
Well, that assumes that your group have it all right, and mine don't.......says who?
I have studied the scriptures carefully for over 50 years and what has happened in that 50 years, is that the "slave" has cast light onto the roadway that your group abandoned close on to 100 years ago. You have had no new light as progressive understanding of the Bible since basically the turn of last century.....a lot has been clarified since then. Russell was the beginning, not the end of revealed truth. Who is the "faithful slave" to you? He was to be doing his job right up until the Master returned, then he would be rewarded for a job well done. (Matt 24:45-47)

Did Christ leave us all to just make up our own minds about everything, or did he appoint this disciples to carry on his work? Who then is the slave appointed to feed his household their "food at the proper time"? When has Jehovah ever left us to our own devices? If he did not appoint shepherds to take care of his flock, then they would be easy prey to the 'wolves'.....Jesus said so.

The sheep are found "doing the will of the Father"....not just talking about it. The "goats" are going on their merry way thinking that they have no obligation to anyone but themselves and what they think is right.
I noticed that you did not address any points about the sheep and goats. Why?

Jesus said that his disciples would be preaching "the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come". (Matt24:14) So who are out there preaching in all the world, calling on people at their homes to tell them about that "good news"? (Acts 20:20; Matt 10:11-14)
Actions speak louder...ya know...?

The reason everyone is born in sin and dies is because of Adam. Rom 5:12 says, “…just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.” (NWT). When Adam disobeyed, he lost his right to live and he lost his family’s right to live.
There is no need to rehash as if I did not hear you the first time....the perfect life that Christ offered was for the perfect life that Adam denied his children. There was absolutely no basis to forgive what he did. He knew that his actions carried the death penalty and that he was disobeying his rightful Sovereign to side with his disobedient wife, (carefully targeted by the devil as bait for Adam). "Divide and conquer"...the oldest trick in the book.

Willful disobedience in Adam's case was never followed by remorse or repentance. (Even Judas expressed regret, and yet he will never see the light of day again.) Not once on the part of Adam and his wife is there an expression of regret, or the offering of a sacrifice to atone for their actions. Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness. Adam cannot be forgiven.

The first one to offer to God a sacrifice was Abel, and it was God's commendation of Abel that triggered hateful jealousy on the part of his brother. One generation away from perfection produced a murderer...such is the power of sin.

The first righteous man was not Adam, but his younger son, Abel. Those considered righteous before God among the faithful men of old start with Abel. (Heb 11:4)

RR144 said:
Job spoke prophetically of Jesus Ransoming mankind and resulting in their restoration back to life and youth.

Job 33:23-25 (NASV) 23 “If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him, 24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, ‘Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom’; 25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor”
Yes he did, because all of Adam's children have the opportunity to live forever, if they are obedient to God and his Christ....but that does not include Adam, who committed a sin that was not forgivable. Jesus did not die for the murderer.
 
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face2face

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Yes he did, because all of Adam's children have the opportunity to live forever, if they are obedient to God and his Christ....but that does not include Adam, who committed a sin that was not forgivable. Jesus did not die for the murderer.
All "in" Adam sin, maybe you think yourself exempt? Again you show your ignorance of the Covenant made in Eden.
 

Johann

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And what scriptural support do you have?
RANSOM/REDEEM

I. OLD TESTAMENT

A. There are primarily two Hebrew legal terms which convey this concept.

1. Ga'al (BDB 145 I, KB 169 I), which basically means "to free by means of a price paid." A form of the term go'el adds to the concept a personal intermediary, usually a family member (i.e., kinsman redeemer).

This cultural aspect of the right to buy back objects, animals, land (cf. Leviticus 25,27), or relatives (cf. Ruth 4:14; Isa. 29:22) is transferred theologically to YHWH's deliverance of Israel from Egypt (cf. Exod. 6:6; 15:13; Ps. 74:2; 77:15; Jer. 31:11). He becomes "the Redeemer" (cf. Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; Pro. 23:11; Isa. 41:14; 43:14; 44:6,24; 47:4; 48:17; 49:7,26; 54:5,8; 59:20; 60:16; 63:16; Jer. 50:34).

2. Padah (BDB 804, KB 911), which basically means "to deliver" or "to rescue."

a. the redemption of the firstborn (Exod. 13:13-15 and Num. 18:15-17)

b. physical redemption is contrasted with spiritual redemption (Ps. 49:7,8,15)

c. YHWH will redeem Israel from their sin and rebellion (Ps. 130:7-8)

B. The theological concept involves several related items.

1. There is a need, a bondage, a forfeiting, an imprisonment.

a. physical

b. social

c. spiritual (cf. Ps. 130:8)

2. A price must be paid for freedom, release, and restoration.

a. of the nation of Israel (cf. Deut. 7:8)

b. of the individual (cf. Job 19:25-27; 33:28; Isaiah 53)

3. Someone must act as intermediary and benefactor. In ga'al this one is usually a family member or near kin (i.e., go'el, BDB 145).

4. YHWH often describes Himself in familial terms.


a. Father

b. Husband

c. Near Kin Redeemer/Avenger Redemption was secured through YHWH's personal agency; a price was paid, and redemption was achieved!

II. NEW TESTAMENT

A. There are several terms used to convey the theological concept.

1. Agorazō (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; 2 Pet. 2:1; Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4). This is a commercial term which reflects a price paid for something. We are blood-bought people who do not control our own lives. We belong to Christ.

2. Exagorazō (cf. Gal. 3:13; 4:5; Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5). This is also a commercial term. It reflects Jesus' substitutionary death on our behalf. Jesus bore the "curse" of a performance-based law (i.e., Mosaic Law, cf. Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 2:14), which sinful humans could not accomplish. He bore the curse (cf. Deut. 21:23) for us all (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21)! In Jesus, God's justice and love merge into full forgiveness, acceptance, and access!

3. Luō, "to set free"

a. Lutron, "a price paid" (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45). These are powerful words from Jesus' own mouth concerning the purpose of His coming, to be the Savior of the world by paying a sin-debt He did not owe (cf. John 1:29).

b. Lutroō, "to release"


(1) to redeem Israel (Luke 24:21)

(2) to give Himself to redeem and purify a people (Titus 2:14)

(3) to be a sinless substitute (1 Pet. 1:18-19)

c. Lutrōsis, "redemption," "deliverance," or "liberation"

(1) Zacharias' prophecy about Jesus, Luke 1:68

(2) Anna's praise to God for Jesus, Luke 2:38

(3) Jesus' better, once offered sacrifice, Heb. 9:12

4. Apolytrōsis

a. redemption at the Second Coming (cf. Acts 3:19-21)

(1) Luke 21:28

(2) Romans 8:23

(3) Ephesians 1:14; 4:30

(4) Hebrews 9:15

b. redemption in Christ's death

(1) Romans 3:24

(2) 1 Corinthians 1:30

(3) Ephesians 1:7

(4) Colossians 1:14

5. Antilytron (cf. 1 Tim. 2:6). This is a crucial text (as is Titus 2:14) which links release to Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross. He is the one and only acceptable sacrifice, the one who dies for "all" (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14).

B. The theological concept in the NT.

1. Mankind is enslaved to sin (cf. John 8:34; Rom. 3:10-18,23; 6:23).

2. Mankind's bondage to sin has been revealed by the OT Mosaic Law (cf. Galatians 3) and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (cf. Matthew 5-7). Human performance has become a death sentence (cf. Col. 2:14).

3. Jesus, the sinless lamb of God, has come and died in our place (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). We have been purchased from sin so that we might serve God (cf. Romans 6).

4. By implication both YHWH and Jesus are "near kin" who act on our behalf. This continues the familial metaphors (i.e., father, husband, son, brother, near kin).

5. Redemption was not a price paid to Satan (i.e., Medieval theology), but the reconciliation of God's word and God's justice with God's love and full provision in Christ. At the cross peace was restored, human rebellion was forgiven, the image of God in mankind is now fully functional again in intimate fellowship!

6. There is still a future aspect of redemption (cf. Rom. 8:23; Eph. 1:14; 4:30), which involves our resurrection bodies and personal intimacy with the Triune God Our resurrected bodies will be like His (cf. 1 John 3:2). He had a physical body, but with an extra dimensional aspect. It is hard to define the paradox of 1 Cor. 15:12-19 with 1 Cor. 15:35-58. Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

I answer for @Bob Estey whom you dismiss as "insignificant"-we are all here to learn-hopefully-a cursory reading on this post should show us there is MUCH to learn and a deeper appreciation of what our Lord Christ Jesus has done for US-Perfect Tense.
Johann.
 

deopasakshi121

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According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died as a ransom for all humanity. His sacrificial death on the cross was an act of divine love and redemption, offering salvation to anyone who believes in Him.

The concept of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice is beautifully depicted in various forms of Christian art, including the Orthodox iconography (Link removed) often portray the Crucifixion, emphasizing the significance of Christ's death and its profound impact on humanity.

The ransom that Jesus paid through His death was not limited to a specific group or individual but extended to all people, regardless of race, nationality, or background. It was a selfless act that reconciles humanity with God, providing forgiveness of sins and the opportunity for eternal life.
 

Johann

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According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died as a ransom for all humanity. His sacrificial death on the cross was an act of divine love and redemption, offering salvation to anyone who believes in Him.

The concept of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice is beautifully depicted in various forms of Christian art, including the Orthodox iconography. (links removed) often portray the Crucifixion, emphasizing the significance of Christ's death and its profound impact on humanity.

The ransom that Jesus paid through His death was not limited to a specific group or individual but extended to all people, regardless of race, nationality, or background. It was a selfless act that reconciles humanity with God, providing forgiveness of sins and the opportunity for eternal life.
Welcome to the Forum @deopasakshi121
Johann.
 
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Aunty Jane

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The concept of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice is beautifully depicted in various forms of Christian art, including the Orthodox iconography. (Link removed) often portray the Crucifixion, emphasizing the significance of Christ's death and its profound impact on humanity.
I was expecting the link to show me what iconography was, but it took me to a gift shop.....are you selling Jesus and Mary for $39.95?

Can you tell me how any of the people who make these icons know what Jesus and Mary looked like? These are not just works of art but items of devotion (holy icons) used in worship, something condemned in God's word. God said not to "make" them, as well as not bowing down before them. (Exodus 20:4-5)

You say that these icons "portray the Crucifixion, emphasizing the significance of Christ's death and its profound impact on humanity".
Do they?

Apparently I can have this holy icon for $570.00

1686644854505.png

I am hearing Jesus angrily talking about making God's worship into a house of merchandise..... :doldrums::ummm:
 
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Johann

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I was expecting the link to show me what iconography was, but it took me to a gift shop.....are you selling Jesus and Mary for $39.95?

Can you tell me how any of the people who make these icons know what Jesus and Mary looked like? These are not just works of art but items of devotion (holy icons) used in worship, something condemned in God's word. God said not to "make" them, as well as not bowing down before them. (Exodus 20:4-5)

You say that these icons "portray the Crucifixion, emphasizing the significance of Christ's death and its profound impact on humanity".
Do they?

Apparently I can have this holy icon for $570.00

View attachment 33611

I am hearing Jesus angrily talking about making God's worship into a house of merchandise..... :doldrums::ummm:
Amazing-

Act 19:24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen.
Act 19:25 These he gathered together, with the workmen in similar trades, and said, “Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth.
Act 19:26 And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this
Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods.
Act 19:27 And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship.”
Act 19:28 When they heard this they were enraged and were crying out, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
Act 19:29 So the city was filled with the confusion, and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Paul's companions in travel.
Act 19:30 But when Paul wished to go in among the crowd, the disciples would not let him.
Act 19:31 And even some of the Asiarchs, who were friends of his, sent to him and were urging him not to venture into the theater.
Act 19:32 Now some cried out one thing, some another, for the assembly was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together.
Act 19:33 Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander, motioning with his hand, wanted to make a defense to the crowd.
Act 19:34 But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all cried out with one voice, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
Act 19:35 And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, “Men of Ephesus, who is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky?
Act 19:36 Seeing then that these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rash.
Act 19:37 For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess.
Act 19:38 If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against anyone, the courts are open, and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another.
Act 19:39 But if you seek anything further, it shall be settled in the regular assembly.
Act 19:40 For we really are in danger of being charged with rioting today, since there is no cause that we can give to justify this commotion.”

Act 19:41 And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly.

Johann
 

Keturah

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"According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus died as a ransom for all humanity. His sacrificial death on the cross was an act of divine love and redemption, offering salvation to anyone who believes in
Him."

"The ransom that Jesus paid through His death was not limited to a specific group or individual but extended to all people, regardless of race, nationality, or background. It was a selfless act that reconciles humanity with God, providing forgiveness of sins and the opportunity for eternal life."

@deopasakshi121 has rightly written the truth here in the above, regardless of the naysayers & mockers!

Welcome ! May God bless your survival. Take heart they ridiculed & mocked Jesus as well !
 
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Aunty Jane

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Internet yelling, even if it is scripture, is bad form and shows a degree of desperation that is unbecoming.
Jesus never resorted to yelling to get his message out to the people.

Let me just take that scripture that is well known in “church” circles....and emphasise the second part when many concentrate only on the first part....

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that whoever believes in him might not perish but have everlasting life.”

God did love the world of mankind enough to send his anointed “holy servant Jesus” (Acts 4:27) to offer a ransom for Adam’s children....that is all of them that “believe” and do more than tacitly acknowledge him as a real person who died for them....they must have the works to back up their faith. (James 2:18-20) Christianity is active not passive.

But what about the second part of that well known scripture that addresses those who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ who offered his life for them? What becomes of them? They will “perish”...that is eternal annihilation.....put out of existence forever. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death there in that verse.

There is no “heaven or hell” scenario ever presented in scripture. Misinterpretation has created that myth.
There is only life or death....that’s it. We choose the path so we choose the destination.
 
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RR144

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I answer for @Bob Estey whom you dismiss as "insignificant"-we are all here to learn-hopefully-a cursory reading on this post should show us there is MUCH to learn and a deeper appreciation of what our Lord Christ Jesus has done for US-Perfect Tense.
Johann.
I dismissed Bob because he didn't give me any scriptural reasoning.
 

Johann

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There is no “heaven or hell” scenario ever presented in scripture. Misinterpretation has created that myth.
There is only life or death....that’s it. We choose the path so we choose the destination.
Jesus taught more about Hell than anyone else-

THE DEAD, WHERE ARE THEY? (SHEOL/HADES, GEHENNA, TARTARUS)

I. Old Testament

A. All humans go to Sheol (there are no cognate roots and the etymology is uncertain, BDB 982, KB 1368), which was a way of referring to the place where the dead live or the grave, mostly in Wisdom Literature and Isaiah. In the OT it was a shadowy, conscious, but joyless existence (cf. Job 10:21-22; 38:17)

B. Sheol characterized

1. associated with God's judgment (fire), Deut. 32:22

2. a prison with gates, Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18

3. a land of no return, Job 7:9 (an Akkadian title for death)

4. a land/realm of darkness, Job 10:21-22; 17:13; 18:18

5. a place of silence, Ps. 28:1; 31:17; 94:17; 115:17; Isa. 47:5

6. associated with punishment even before Judgment Day, Ps. 18:4-5

7. associated with abaddon= in which God is also present, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Amos 9:2

8. associated with "the Pit" (grave), Ps.16:10; 88:3-4; Isa. 14:15; Ezek. 31:15-17

9. wicked descend alive into Sheol, Num. 16:30,33; Job 7:9; Ps. 55:15

10. personified often as an animal with a large mouth, Num. 16:30; Pro. 1:12; Isa. 5:14; Hab. 2:5

11. people there called Repha'im (i.e., "spirits of the dead"), Job 26:5; Pro. 2:18; 21:16; 26:14 Isa. 14:9-11)

12. however, YHWH is present even here, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Pro. 15:11



II. New Testament

A. The Hebrew Sheol is translated by the Greek Hades (the unseen world)

B. Hades characterized (much like Sheol)

1. refers to death, Matt. 16:18

2. linked to death, Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14

3. often analogous to the place of permanent punishment (Gehenna), Matt. 11:23 (OT quote); Luke 10:15; 16:23-24

4. often analogous to the grave, Luke 16:23

C. Possibly divided (rabbis)

1. righteous part called Paradise (really another name for heaven, cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7), Luke 23:43

2. wicked part called Tartarus, a holding place far below Hades, 2 Peter 2:4, where it is a holding place for evil angels (cf. Genesis 6; I Enoch). It is associated with the "Abyss," Luke 8:31; Rom. 10:7; Rev. 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:18; 20:1,3

D. Gehenna

1. Reflects the OT phrase, "the valley of the sons of Hinnom," (south of Jerusalem). It was the place where the Phoenician fire god, Molech (BDB 574, KB 591), was worshiped by child sacrifice (cf. 2 Kgs. 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6), which was forbidden in Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5.

2. Jeremiah changed it from a place of pagan worship into a site of YHWH's judgment (cf. Jer. 7:32; 19:6-7). It became the place of fiery, eternal judgment in I Enoch 90:26-27 and Sib. 1:103.

3. The Jews of Jesus' day were so appalled by their ancestors' participation in pagan worship by child sacrifice, that they turned this area into the garbage dump for Jerusalem. Many of Jesus' metaphors for eternal judgment came from this landfill (fire, smoke, worms, stench, cf. Mark 9:44,46). The term Gehenna is used only by Jesus (except in James 3:6).

4. Jesus' usage of Gehenna

a. fire, Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43

b. permanent, Mark 9:48 (Matt. 25:46)

c. place of destruction (both soul and body), Matt. 10:28

d. paralleled to Sheol, Matt. 5:29-30; 18:9

e. characterizes the wicked as "son of hell," Matt. 23:15

f. result of judicial sentence, Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5

g. the concept of Gehenna is parallel to the second death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14) or the lake of fire (cf. Matt. 13:42,50; Rev. 19:20; 20:10,14-15; 21:8). It is possible the lake of fire becomes the permanent dwelling place of humans (from Sheol) and evil angels (from Tartarus, 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 or the abyss, cf. Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:1-11; 20:1,3).

h. it was not designed for humans, but for Satan and his angels, Matt. 25:41


E. It is possible, because of the overlap of Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna that

1. originally all humans went to Sheol/Hades

2. their experience there (good/bad) is exacerbated after Judgment Day, but the place of the wicked remains the same (this is why the KJV translated hades (grave) as gehenna (hell).

3. the only NT text to mention torment before Judgment is the parable of Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the Rich Man). Sheol is also described as a place of punishment now (cf. Deut. 32:22; Ps. 18:1-5). However, one cannot establish a doctrine on a parable.



III. Intermediate state between death and resurrection

A. The NT does not teach the "immortality of the soul," which is one of several ancient views of the after life, which asserts that

1. human souls exist before their physical life

2. human souls are eternal before and after physical death

3. often the physical body is seen as a prison and death as release back to pre-existent state

B. The NT hints at a disembodied state between death and resurrection

1. Jesus speaks of a division between body and soul, Matt. 10:28

2. Abraham may already have a body, Mark 12:26-27; Luke 16:23

3. Moses and Elijah have a physical body at the transfiguration, Matthew 17


4. Paul asserts that at the Second Coming the believers with Christ will get their new bodies first, 1 Thess. 4:13-18

5. Paul asserts that believers get their new spiritual bodies on Resurrection Day, 1 Cor. 15:23,52

6. Paul asserts that believers do not go to Hades, but at death are with Jesus, 2 Cor. 5:6,8; Phil. 1:23. Jesus overcame death and took the righteous to heaven with Him, 1 Pet. 3:18-22.

Something you don't agree with-




IV. Heaven

A. This term is used in three senses in the Bible.

1. the atmosphere above the earth, Gen. 1:1,8; Isa. 42:5; 45:18

2. the starry heavens, Gen. 1:14; Deut. 10:14; Ps. 148:4; Heb. 4:14; 7:26

3. the place of God's throne, Deut. 10:14; 1 Kgs. 8:27; Ps. 148:4; Eph. 4:10; Heb. 9:24 (third heaven, 2 Cor. 12:2)

B. The Bible does not reveal much about the afterlife, probably because fallen humans have no way or capacity to understand (cf. 1 Cor. 2:9).

Honest transparency

C. Heaven is both a place (cf. John 14:2-3) and a person (cf. 2 Cor. 5:6,8). Heaven may be a restored Garden of Eden (Genesis 1-2; Revelation 21-22). The earth will be cleansed and restored (cf. Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:21; 2 Pet. 3:10). The image of God (Gen. 1:26-27) is restored in Christ. Now the intimate fellowship of the Garden of Eden is possible again.


However, this may be metaphorical (heaven as a huge, cubed city of Rev. 21:9-27) and not literal. 1 Corinthians 15 describes the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body as the seed to the mature plant. Again, 1 Cor. 2:9 (a quote from Isa. 64:4 and 65:17) is a great promise and hope! I know that when we see Him we will be like Him (cf. 1 John 3:2).



V. Helpful resources

A. William Hendriksen, The Bible On the Life Hereafter

B. Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door

Guess from whom?
Johann.
 
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RR144

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We are not here to dismiss others as insignificant-and as I have shown you-we ALL have much to learn.
Thanks
Johann.
But how can we learn from one another, when one is not providing the Scriptural proofs for what they believe? Simply saying "it's this way" and nothing more is not learning.
 
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amigo de christo

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That whosoever ......................BELIEVES , will not perish but have everlasting life .
But unto he who believeth not , JESUS SPELLS OUT DAMANTION unto that soul .
The part many no longer believe . But as for this lamb . Its gonna remind all that has breath
that every other religoin , any other path , any other mindset cannot , will not , shall not save them .
And point to the ONLY ONE who can , I WILL . NOW LIFT THOSE HANDS UP , and LET ALL that has breath praise and thank the LORD .
And let us always remember , JESUS AINT the ministir of sin .
SO if ya jesus is accepting of homosexuality , love of money or any other sin , IT AINT JESUS and it cannot save .
 

amigo de christo

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Jesus taught more about Hell than anyone else-

THE DEAD, WHERE ARE THEY? (SHEOL/HADES, GEHENNA, TARTARUS)

I. Old Testament

A. All humans go to Sheol (there are no cognate roots and the etymology is uncertain, BDB 982, KB 1368), which was a way of referring to the place where the dead live or the grave, mostly in Wisdom Literature and Isaiah. In the OT it was a shadowy, conscious, but joyless existence (cf. Job 10:21-22; 38:17)

B. Sheol characterized

1. associated with God's judgment (fire), Deut. 32:22

2. a prison with gates, Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18

3. a land of no return, Job 7:9 (an Akkadian title for death)

4. a land/realm of darkness, Job 10:21-22; 17:13; 18:18

5. a place of silence, Ps. 28:1; 31:17; 94:17; 115:17; Isa. 47:5

6. associated with punishment even before Judgment Day, Ps. 18:4-5

7. associated with abaddon= in which God is also present, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Amos 9:2

8. associated with "the Pit" (grave), Ps.16:10; 88:3-4; Isa. 14:15; Ezek. 31:15-17

9. wicked descend alive into Sheol, Num. 16:30,33; Job 7:9; Ps. 55:15

10. personified often as an animal with a large mouth, Num. 16:30; Pro. 1:12; Isa. 5:14; Hab. 2:5

11. people there called Repha'im (i.e., "spirits of the dead"), Job 26:5; Pro. 2:18; 21:16; 26:14 Isa. 14:9-11)

12. however, YHWH is present even here, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Pro. 15:11



II. New Testament

A. The Hebrew Sheol is translated by the Greek Hades (the unseen world)

B. Hades characterized (much like Sheol)

1. refers to death, Matt. 16:18

2. linked to death, Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14

3. often analogous to the place of permanent punishment (Gehenna), Matt. 11:23 (OT quote); Luke 10:15; 16:23-24

4. often analogous to the grave, Luke 16:23

C. Possibly divided (rabbis)

1. righteous part called Paradise (really another name for heaven, cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7), Luke 23:43

2. wicked part called Tartarus, a holding place far below Hades, 2 Peter 2:4, where it is a holding place for evil angels (cf. Genesis 6; I Enoch). It is associated with the "Abyss," Luke 8:31; Rom. 10:7; Rev. 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:18; 20:1,3

D. Gehenna

1. Reflects the OT phrase, "the valley of the sons of Hinnom," (south of Jerusalem). It was the place where the Phoenician fire god, Molech (BDB 574, KB 591), was worshiped by child sacrifice (cf. 2 Kgs. 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6), which was forbidden in Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5.

2. Jeremiah changed it from a place of pagan worship into a site of YHWH's judgment (cf. Jer. 7:32; 19:6-7). It became the place of fiery, eternal judgment in I Enoch 90:26-27 and Sib. 1:103.

3. The Jews of Jesus' day were so appalled by their ancestors' participation in pagan worship by child sacrifice, that they turned this area into the garbage dump for Jerusalem. Many of Jesus' metaphors for eternal judgment came from this landfill (fire, smoke, worms, stench, cf. Mark 9:44,46). The term Gehenna is used only by Jesus (except in James 3:6).

4. Jesus' usage of Gehenna

a. fire, Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43

b. permanent, Mark 9:48 (Matt. 25:46)

c. place of destruction (both soul and body), Matt. 10:28

d. paralleled to Sheol, Matt. 5:29-30; 18:9

e. characterizes the wicked as "son of hell," Matt. 23:15

f. result of judicial sentence, Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5

g. the concept of Gehenna is parallel to the second death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14) or the lake of fire (cf. Matt. 13:42,50; Rev. 19:20; 20:10,14-15; 21:8). It is possible the lake of fire becomes the permanent dwelling place of humans (from Sheol) and evil angels (from Tartarus, 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 or the abyss, cf. Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:1-11; 20:1,3).

h. it was not designed for humans, but for Satan and his angels, Matt. 25:41


E. It is possible, because of the overlap of Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna that

1. originally all humans went to Sheol/Hades

2. their experience there (good/bad) is exacerbated after Judgment Day, but the place of the wicked remains the same (this is why the KJV translated hades (grave) as gehenna (hell).

3. the only NT text to mention torment before Judgment is the parable of Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the Rich Man). Sheol is also described as a place of punishment now (cf. Deut. 32:22; Ps. 18:1-5). However, one cannot establish a doctrine on a parable.



III. Intermediate state between death and resurrection

A. The NT does not teach the "immortality of the soul," which is one of several ancient views of the after life, which asserts that

1. human souls exist before their physical life

2. human souls are eternal before and after physical death

3. often the physical body is seen as a prison and death as release back to pre-existent state

B. The NT hints at a disembodied state between death and resurrection

1. Jesus speaks of a division between body and soul, Matt. 10:28

2. Abraham may already have a body, Mark 12:26-27; Luke 16:23

3. Moses and Elijah have a physical body at the transfiguration, Matthew 17


4. Paul asserts that at the Second Coming the believers with Christ will get their new bodies first, 1 Thess. 4:13-18

5. Paul asserts that believers get their new spiritual bodies on Resurrection Day, 1 Cor. 15:23,52

6. Paul asserts that believers do not go to Hades, but at death are with Jesus, 2 Cor. 5:6,8; Phil. 1:23. Jesus overcame death and took the righteous to heaven with Him, 1 Pet. 3:18-22.

Something you don't agree with-




IV. Heaven

A. This term is used in three senses in the Bible.

1. the atmosphere above the earth, Gen. 1:1,8; Isa. 42:5; 45:18

2. the starry heavens, Gen. 1:14; Deut. 10:14; Ps. 148:4; Heb. 4:14; 7:26

3. the place of God's throne, Deut. 10:14; 1 Kgs. 8:27; Ps. 148:4; Eph. 4:10; Heb. 9:24 (third heaven, 2 Cor. 12:2)

B. The Bible does not reveal much about the afterlife, probably because fallen humans have no way or capacity to understand (cf. 1 Cor. 2:9).

Honest transparency

C. Heaven is both a place (cf. John 14:2-3) and a person (cf. 2 Cor. 5:6,8). Heaven may be a restored Garden of Eden (Genesis 1-2; Revelation 21-22). The earth will be cleansed and restored (cf. Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:21; 2 Pet. 3:10). The image of God (Gen. 1:26-27) is restored in Christ. Now the intimate fellowship of the Garden of Eden is possible again.


However, this may be metaphorical (heaven as a huge, cubed city of Rev. 21:9-27) and not literal. 1 Corinthians 15 describes the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body as the seed to the mature plant. Again, 1 Cor. 2:9 (a quote from Isa. 64:4 and 65:17) is a great promise and hope! I know that when we see Him we will be like Him (cf. 1 John 3:2).



V. Helpful resources

A. William Hendriksen, The Bible On the Life Hereafter

B. Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door

Guess from whom?
Johann.
Go ye into all the world and preach THE GOSPEL . not the social one , All who believe and are baptized shall be saved
but he who believeth not shall be damned .
The same JESUS who warned a lot about hell . had this to say to those who had HEARD the gospel
and yet had not repented to beleive on Him . IT WILL BE WORSE FOR YOU than FOR SODOM on the day of judgment .
NOW that dont sound all good and fuzzy ...........................
OH he also told them to teach them ALL , not some , not a few , not most , BUT ALL THINGS I HAVE TUAGHT YOU .
WE need to Embrace CHRIST . hearers but no doers DONT EMBRACE HIM at all .
JAMES was right . Just as paul would also confirm .
Any man who cometh , even in the name of JESUS and yet tries to pit apostel against apostel
TRIES TO act like james and paul contradicted each other . OR TRIES TO omit certain teachings of JESUS
saying it was for that generation , OR tries to say THIS APPLIES only to the jews not gentiles . DO NOT HEED THEM .
THE ENTIRE CANON applies to the lambs . EVERY WORD . TO the jew and to the gentile . THEM WORDS
are and were and still are FOR ALL BELIEVERS . AMEN . AMEN and AMEN . Every WORD of GOD is good for the lambs
THUS every word will be LOVED by a lamb .
 

amigo de christo

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That is also true-too many here who know it all-dogmatic, never yielding.
I apologize brother.
Johann.
One thing i know is that i do not know it all , But what i know that shall i teach . CHRIST JESUS and HIM CRUCIFIED .
NOW LIFT THOSE HANDS AND PRAISE THE KING . I know HE who knows all , or rather am known by HIM .
His words shall be taught . The words of the apostels shall be taught and exhorted
The holy words of all holy scripture shall be reminded . Now lift those hands and praise the LORD .