Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?

[quietthinker]

I never said he demanded justice FROM Adam.

Have you forgotten your posts #193 and #198?

 

[RR144]

Have you forgotten your posts #193 and #198?

No, I haven't forgotten. There's NOTHING in my comments there that say God demanded justice from Adam.

 

[quietthinker]

No, I haven't forgotten. There's NOTHING in my comments there that say God demanded justice from Adam.

So what is Justice from your point of view? and if you say he didn't demand it from Adam, you'll need to explain to me the connection you make between ransom and justice?

 

[Only One King]

There is no "entitlement" in salvation. Only those who obey the Gospel, and repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are saved. And many will not be saved. Also there will be no Paradise on earth.

Greetings my friend.

No Paradise?

The Bible clearly states that Jesus must come again and claim the throne of David as told by the Angel Gabriel to Mary in Luke 2.
That has not happened yet but it will during His Millennial reign as KIng on Earth. It will be a place where people who do not live past the age of 100 will be considered cursed.

Like us who believe in Jesus the earth itself is also groaning even now and waiting to be delivered.
On that day when Jesus returns He will restore the earth back to paradise mode but it won't last for more than a 1000 years.

After the 1000 years the final end of sin is removed and Satan is taken out of the way forever. Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth as promised by God wherein righteousness dwells.

All in all an earthly paradise is coming and Jesus our Lord will be the One to make it happen.

Be blessed

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

The reason everyone is born in sin and dies is because of Adam. Rom 5:12 says, “…just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.” (NWT). When Adam disobeyed, he lost his right to live and he lost his family’s right to live.

Hello RR. You are correct. But to conform such that the sins of the father are not passed on to the son, it should be understood that Adam's fall resulted in a cherub guard denying all to the tree of life.

Under Moses’ Law, justice demanded “a life for a life.” This was God’s perfect law. If a man killed someone, he must pay with his own life: a life for a life. (Exodus 21:23-25; Deuteronomy 19:21). Jehovah solved the problem by satisfying justice with the Ransom price of Jesus perfect human life paid for Adam’s lost perfect human life.

The covenant of Moses was fullfiled by Jesus' life and mission. The life for a life is from Noahide covenant. Jesus' death fulfilled that covenant

The Apostle Paul uses the Greek word anti-lutron, signifying, “a corresponding price,” saying, “The man, Christ Jesus, gave himself a ransom [anti-lutron—corresponding price] for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Tim. 2:6. The Greek word lutroo is rendered “redeemed.” Prof. Young defines lutroo to signify “to loose by a price”—that is, to set free by the payment of a price. The basis or root of this word is lutron, which, as noted above with anti, used either as a prefix or a suffix, signifies a corresponding price.

Put in simple terms, Ransom means that something was lost and that you have to pay something of equal value to get it back.

Hear, hear

Salvation comes by substitutionary atonement. One man, Jesus Christ, died for one man, Adam, so that Adam and all his posterity might live. The Apostle Paul outlines this concept of substitutionary atonement in two passages:

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Corinthians 15:21, 22​

​

“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Rom. 5:15​

Since the first man, Adam, was a perfect human being, it follows that Jesus, as a corresponding price, must also be a perfect human being and that the resultant life for Adam’s posterity must be perfect human life.

As Adam, through disobedience, forfeited his life, so Jesus, by his death, as a corresponding price, paid a full and exact offset for Father Adam’s life, and in consequence for all Adam’s posterity—every human soul—sharers in his fall and in his loss. With Adam redeemed, all his posterity are entitled to a resurrection from the dead to human perfection and a trial for life under the favorable conditions of Paradise Earth.

Until Jesus came, no human man could provide that Ransom price, because they were all sinners. No one was the perfect human equivalent of Adam.
Psalms 49:7 (NASV) “No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him”

Romans 3:10 (NKJV) “There is none righteous, no, not one”​

Job spoke prophetically of Jesus Ransoming mankind and resulting in their restoration back to life and youth.

Job 33:23-25 (NASV) 23 “If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him, 24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, ‘Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom’; 25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor”​

As Jesus was sinless, he can not be punished for sin. Rather his death fulfilled the covenants and his name became higher than the angels. Now, Jesus can command the tree of life be given to his wayward brothers. The cherub will let us thru on the advocacy of Jesus.

 

[Arthur81]

In response to the original post, for whom did Jesus die?

Jesus shed his blood for the church, the assembly of God -

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28 RSV)

Jesus is the ransom for the "many" who make up the body of Christ, the assembly of God-

"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matt 20:28 REB)

Jesus died to redeem some "out of" the many categories of peoples in the world -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV)

Jesus gave himself for those who are actually set free, and if he died for some who are not set free, he failed to complete his mission -

"who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father," (Gal 1:4 NRSV)

The Son of Man came to actually save, not make salvation possible by adding an "if" -

"For the Son of Man came to seek out and to save the lost.” (Luke 19:10 NRSV)

Jesus gave his life for his sheep, from among the Gentiles as well as the Jews, one flock -

"even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd." (John 10:15-16 ASV)

Keeping in mind that faith and repentance are gifts of God's free grace -

Faith: Phil. 1:29; Acts 18:27; Heb. 12:2
Repentance: 2 Tim. 2:25; Acts 5:31; 11:18

 

[Patrick1966]

Only those who obey the Gospel, and repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are saved.

Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe.

 

[Jack]

Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe.

HIGHLY conditional upon believing! If everyone is going to be saved then why all the warnings in the NT? You may be leading people to Hell!

Mk 16 He that believeth not shall be DAMNED!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe.

This is one of those times when “ALL” doesn’t mean “ALL” as in “everyone”……it can’t be everyone because those whom Jesus judges as “goats” will go into the lake of fire, where the devil and his minions will eventually end up. (Matt 25:41-46)
Being “saved” from that outcome is why Jesus gave his life, in exchange for ours. Most people don’t even know what they are being “saved” from….God’s wrath on unbelievers…..and pseudo “Christians”. (Matt 7:21-23)

Those who will be saved are those who know who God is, and who obey all the teachings of his son…..they know why he sent his son to give his life for his faithful followers…..and what future he intends to bring about for those who inherited sin and death because of Adam’s sin, through no fault on their part.

 

[Patrick1966]

This is one of those times when “ALL” doesn’t mean “ALL” as in “everyone”

Then to whom is Paul referring in verse 10, please?

1 Timothy 4 ESV
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

A Good Servant of Christ Jesus
6 If you put these things before the brothers,[a] you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them,[c] so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

[Patrick1966]

Those who will be saved are those who know who God is, and who obey all the teachings of his son...

I believe that faithful Christians are indeed saved from judgment, damnation, and Hell. However, I also believe that nobody remains in Hell forever and that, eventually, ALL those in Hell will repent and also become faithful followers of Christ.

 

[Patrick1966]

Here's another. Jesus is the savior of the WORLD. I do believe that Jesus sends people to Hell, but it's for their benefit so that they can repent, be cleansed and join the rest of us in the kingdom. Otherwise, Jesus is NOT the "savior of the world".


1 John 4:14 ESV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Rather train yourself for godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

In context, Paul’s words indicate that “training ourselves for godliness“ requires that we “toil and strive BECAUSE we have our hope set on the living God who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”…..
Those who fail to “toil and strive” in “training themselves for godliness” have not set their heart on the living God, and will therefore NOT be saved.

I believe that faithful Christians are indeed saved from judgment, damnation, and Hell. However, I also believe that nobody remains in Hell forever and that, eventually, ALL those in Hell will repent and also become faithful followers of Christ.

I do not believe in “damnation” or “hell” as Christendom teaches these things.
The ones Jesus judges as “goats” will be cast into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is called “the second death”….unlike the first death, (inherited from the sin of Adam, Rom 5:12) humankind who experience the second death will never see life again. There is no coming back from eternal death.
Jesus said….”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
“Gehenna” is a place where souls are “destroyed” not tortured.

Here's another. Jesus is the savior of the WORLD. I do believe that Jesus sends people to Hell, but it's for their benefit so that they can repent, be cleansed and join the rest of us in the kingdom. Otherwise, Jesus is NOT the "savior of the world".

Yes, “the world” of faithful mankind will be saved. Only those who live their faith will inherit everlasting life. Repentance is a pre-requisite, but it has to be done before the judgment. Unrepentant ones have had ample time to get to know God and his son, so there will be no arguments or justifications when Jesus comes to hold the world to an accounting. (Heb 4:11-13)

1 John 4:14 ESV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Again, this is the world (“cosmos”) of mankind…..no matter where they live in this world, all have the opportunity to get to know God and his son, but not all will put in the effort…to “toil and strive” so that Jesus will recognize them as his own. There will be no excuses accepted. (Matt 7:21-23) Rejection will mean no inheritance in the Kingdom.

 

[Jack]

I believe that faithful Christians are indeed saved from judgment, damnation, and Hell. However, I also believe that nobody remains in Hell forever and that, eventually, ALL those in Hell will repent and also become faithful followers of Christ.

What you believe is Satanic myth.

Mt 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[quietthinker]

This is one of those times when “ALL” doesn’t mean “ALL” as in “everyone”……it can’t be everyone because those whom Jesus judges as “goats” will go into the lake of fire, where the devil and his minions will eventually end up. (Matt 25:41-46)
Being “saved” from that outcome is why Jesus gave his life, in exchange for ours. Most people don’t even know what they are being “saved” from….God’s wrath on unbelievers…..and pseudo “Christians”. (Matt 7:21-23)

Those who will be saved are those who know who God is, and who obey all the teachings of his son…..they know why he sent his son to give his life for his faithful followers…..and what future he intends to bring about for those who inherited sin and death because of Adam’s sin, through no fault on their part.

It does mean ALL just as it says. So what do we do with those headed for the lake of fire which ultimately means death?
We assume God puts them into the lake of fire ie, kills them but no, it is the devil who steals, kills and destroys, not God.
Salvation is for ALL but not all want it. They prefer to die just as Judas did even though forgiveness extends to him also.

 

[Patrick1966]

In context, Paul’s words indicate that “training ourselves for godliness“ requires that we “toil and strive BECAUSE we have our hope set on the living God who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”…..
Those who fail to “toil and strive” in “training themselves for godliness” have not set their heart on the living God, and will therefore NOT be saved.


I do not believe in “damnation” or “hell” as Christendom teaches these things.
The ones Jesus judges as “goats” will be cast into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is called “the second death”….unlike the first death, (inherited from the sin of Adam, Rom 5:12) humankind who experience the second death will never see life again. There is no coming back from eternal death.
Jesus said….”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
“Gehenna” is a place where souls are “destroyed” not tortured.


Yes, “the world” of faithful mankind will be saved. Only those who live their faith will inherit everlasting life. Repentance is a pre-requisite, but it has to be done before the judgment. Unrepentant ones have had ample time to get to know God and his son, so there will be no arguments or justifications when Jesus comes to hold the world to an accounting. (Heb 4:11-13)

Again, this is the world (“cosmos”) of mankind…..no matter where they live in this world, all have the opportunity to get to know God and his son, but not all will put in the effort…to “toil and strive” so that Jesus will recognize them as his own. There will be no excuses accepted. (Matt 7:21-23) Rejection will mean no inheritance in the Kingdom.

I appreciate your perspectives, my sister, but I do not share them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I appreciate your perspectives, my sister, but I do not share them.

That is entirely your choice my friend.....we are all left to make our own decisions about what we believe is true.

 

[Patrick1966]

That is entirely your choice my friend.....we are all left to make our own decisions about what we believe is true.

Amen my sister. I always enjoy and appreciate that we can share our understandings, disagree about them, and remain friends. May God bless all here.

 

[Behold]

Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.

Jesus is the Savior of ALL.

But the verse does not say that All are saved.

The Cross is the offer of Salvation, to ALL, who will Believe.

Jesus said..."ALL that BELIEVE in me........I give unto them... Eternal Life, and they shall never go to Hell (perish)".

So, notice that Jesus has the Eternal Life, as He IS Eternal life, and this is OFFERED to ALL.... but there is a Condition to get it, to receive it.


A.) BELIEVE

 

[Patrick1966]

But the verse does not say that All are saved.

Then Jesus is NOT the savior of all people as Paul claimed. Instead, Jesus is only the POTENTIAL savior of all people. Thanks for demonstrating that Paul was a heretic. I will dismiss everything he wrote and listen to you instead.