I’m talking about God.
Functional equality of God and Messiah.
Your Jesus doesn’t worship God.
Who Do You Worship?
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I’m talking about God.
Functional equality of God and Messiah.
Your Jesus doesn’t worship God.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The Father is YHWH. Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. 100% COEQUAL, COETERNAL and COESSENTIAL, in The Eternal Godhead.
Neither Person "worships" the Other, but they equally receive worship from all created beings
Is it your contention that trinitarianism teaches that Jesus did not, does not and never will worship God?
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The Bible does not teach that any Person in the Godhead worships the other
Is this clear
It is clear to me. But is it clear to your fellow trinitarians?
I’d like to ask again, Is it your contention that trinitarianism teaches that Jesus did not, does not and never will worship God?
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
You’re either unwilling or unable to answer a simple question about what trinitarianism teaches.
You’ve offered me your personal opinion. An opinion, I would point out to our readers, which isn’t shared by all trinitarians, and isn’t the teaching of trinitarianism.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
I will repeat my answer again. your question is nonsense, as it is not anywhere in the Bible!
Once again, you offer me your personal opinion.
Here are facts:
1. Trinitarianism does not teach that Jesus never did, doesn’t now and never will worship God.
2. Trinitarians don’t all share your personal opinion on the subject.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
I am NOT interested in "Trinitarianism", but only what the Bible teaches
Show ONE verse from the Bible, that says Jesus Christ Worshipped God the Father?
Hebrews 1:6 does say that the Father COMMANDS the WORSHIP of Jesus Christ!
And when He again brings the Firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Well said, Jesus said "I am the almighty".... definition of almighty is there ain't no one mightier. HMMM
Hello @Matthias
Why answer a whole chock full of scripture post with a one liner? Nobody has an answer to these verses it seems.
Perfect, wonderful verses, thanks for the reply!
It makes me think of a human when speaking, is their word a part of them speaking, or, someone else? Obviously it is the persons thoughts and words so...it is that person. Hope that makes a lick of sense!
lol...Jesus IS God.
Hello.
What do you think when someone posts “a whole chock full of scripture” to you?
What I think when that happens to me is that the person isn’t looking for a conversation. The connotation I get is something like “Here are 100 reasons from scripture demonstrating that what you believe is wrong or unbiblical. Case closed.”
Let’s say, just for the sake of discussion, that I decide to send you a post “chock full of scripture” and I would like for you to comment on each passage of scripture. Forget 100 verses. Let’s say that I send you only 10 verses. How lengthy, and detailed, would your response be to me on each of the verses I asked about?
Now let’s further suppose that after reading your lengthy commentary on the scriptures I asked about that I would like to respond to it. My tome to you was answered with your tome to me, which will require an even larger tome from me in response. I don’t you about you but I’m exhausted just thinking about it.
Someone delivers “a whole chock full of scripture” message. That, in my view, is a lecture, not a conversation.
What do you think when someone posts a message to you with one, or maybe a couple, of passages of scripture?
What I think when that happens to me is that the person is looking for a conversation. The connotation I get is something like “Here is a passage of scripture that I would like to hear what you think about. I would like to discuss it with you. I would really like to know what you believe and why you believe it.”
Conversation on.
Thanks. Unlike you, I’m very interested in trinitarianism and in what the Bible teaches.
I’ve already done that exercise in this thread with @Christophany.
I’ve already agreed with you that Christians are to worship both God and the Messiah.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The Revised Standard Version of the Bible says at Titus 2:13,
"Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Similar wording is found in NE, TEV, JB versions of the Bible. However, NW reads: “while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus.” The NAB version of the Bible has a similar rendering.
Which translation agrees with Titus 1:4, which refers to “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”? Although the Scriptures also refer to God as being a Savior, this text clearly differentiates between him and Christ Jesus, the one through whom God provides salvation.
Some argue that Titus 2:13 indicates that Christ is both God and Savior. Interestingly, Revised Sandard version New English version, Today's English Version, Jerusalem Bible, render Titus 2:13 in a way that might be construed as allowing for that view, but they do not follow the same rule in their translation of 2 Thessalonians 1:12.
Henry Alford, in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13 satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s way of writing.”
At John 5:18 it says that the Jews (as at John 10:31-36) wanted to kill Jesus because “he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.”
But who said that Jesus was making himself equal to God? It wasn't Jesus. He defended himself against this false charge in the very next verse at John 5:19, "Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.
By saying this, Jesus showed the Jews that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative. Can we imagine someone equal to Almighty God saying that he could “do nothing by himself”? The context of John 5:18 shows that Jesus defended himself against a false charge from the Jews.
At Matthew 2:11 which says, "And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."
In connection with the respect paid to Jesus, the word often used is proskyneo a word having the basic meaning “do obeisance,” but also translated “worship.” (Mt 2:11; Lu 4:8) This Greek word proskyneo was used when men bowed to other men as a sign of respect. The wise men bowed to the child Jesus because the wise men recognized him as a king, not because they were worshipping him. This greek word proskyneo is used when men greeted kings as a sign of respect not because they were worshipping him.
Jesus was not accepting worship, which belongs to God alone (Matthew 4:10), but recognized the act of the one doing obeisance to him as recognition of the authority given Him by God. The angel whom Jesus Christ sent to bring the Revelation to John expressed the principle that man’s worship belongs only to God, when he refused to accept worship from John.(Revelation 19:10)
Obeisance to a human king is found in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26. It is evident that this was the kind of obeisance that the astrologers rendered to the child Jesus, “born king of the Jews,” that Herod professed interest in expressing, and that the soldiers mockingly rendered to Jesus before his impalement. They clearly did not view Jesus as God or as a deity. (Mt 2:2, 8; Mr 15:19) While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskyneo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Samuel 25:23, 24; 2Samuel 14:4-7; 1King 1:16; 2King 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38)
We Jehovah's Witnesses don't worship Jesus we worship the Father and God of Jesus, his name is YHWH(Jehovah or Yaweh). The Father and God of Jesus was also the Father and God of Jesus Apostles and disciples, so YHWH God is our Father and God as well.(John 20:17)
"Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Similar wording is found in NE, TEV, JB versions of the Bible. However, NW reads: “while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus.” The NAB version of the Bible has a similar rendering.
Which translation agrees with Titus 1:4, which refers to “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”? Although the Scriptures also refer to God as being a Savior, this text clearly differentiates between him and Christ Jesus, the one through whom God provides salvation.
Some argue that Titus 2:13 indicates that Christ is both God and Savior. Interestingly, Revised Sandard version New English version, Today's English Version, Jerusalem Bible, render Titus 2:13 in a way that might be construed as allowing for that view, but they do not follow the same rule in their translation of 2 Thessalonians 1:12.
Henry Alford, in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13 satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s way of writing.”
At John 5:18 it says that the Jews (as at John 10:31-36) wanted to kill Jesus because “he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.”
But who said that Jesus was making himself equal to God? It wasn't Jesus. He defended himself against this false charge in the very next verse at John 5:19, "Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.
By saying this, Jesus showed the Jews that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative. Can we imagine someone equal to Almighty God saying that he could “do nothing by himself”? The context of John 5:18 shows that Jesus defended himself against a false charge from the Jews.
At Matthew 2:11 which says, "And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."
In connection with the respect paid to Jesus, the word often used is proskyneo a word having the basic meaning “do obeisance,” but also translated “worship.” (Mt 2:11; Lu 4:8) This Greek word proskyneo was used when men bowed to other men as a sign of respect. The wise men bowed to the child Jesus because the wise men recognized him as a king, not because they were worshipping him. This greek word proskyneo is used when men greeted kings as a sign of respect not because they were worshipping him.
Jesus was not accepting worship, which belongs to God alone (Matthew 4:10), but recognized the act of the one doing obeisance to him as recognition of the authority given Him by God. The angel whom Jesus Christ sent to bring the Revelation to John expressed the principle that man’s worship belongs only to God, when he refused to accept worship from John.(Revelation 19:10)
Obeisance to a human king is found in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26. It is evident that this was the kind of obeisance that the astrologers rendered to the child Jesus, “born king of the Jews,” that Herod professed interest in expressing, and that the soldiers mockingly rendered to Jesus before his impalement. They clearly did not view Jesus as God or as a deity. (Mt 2:2, 8; Mr 15:19) While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskyneo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Samuel 25:23, 24; 2Samuel 14:4-7; 1King 1:16; 2King 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38)
We Jehovah's Witnesses don't worship Jesus we worship the Father and God of Jesus, his name is YHWH(Jehovah or Yaweh). The Father and God of Jesus was also the Father and God of Jesus Apostles and disciples, so YHWH God is our Father and God as well.(John 20:17)
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The New World Translation of 1950, reads for Hebrews 1:6 reads, “And let all God's angels worship him”
This was changed to read, "And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”.
WHY?
No doubt because someone in the JW's saw that here is a clear text where the Father, Jehovah, COMMANDS the WORSHIP of Jesus Christ, Whom they teach is "created"!
In a Yearbook in 1945, published by the Watchtower, it reads:
“to prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature, and for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship; to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for preaching this gospel of the Kingdom” (1945 Yearbook of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Annual Report, p. 32)
Clear that WORSHIP is EQUALLY to BOTH Almighty God, AND to Jesus Christ!
HOW can any WORSHIP that is given to Almighty God, Who ALONE is to be WORSHIPPED, be also given to Jesus Christ, if He is not also Almighty God?
No doubt the theology of the JW's changed from what they used to believe that the Bible taught, to their humanistic pervisions!
How can anyone trust those who pervert the Teachings of the Bible, that even they themselves once believed?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ has to be Almighty God because the Father Commands to WORSHIP Him
Something impossible if Jesus is any inferior to GOD
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