Who Do You Worship?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

No one is claiming Jesus uses the name Yahweh.
However;
Disagree the Knowledge that Jesus is God is not in Scripture.


Heb 1:
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets...
[8] But unto the Son he (God) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. <—- POWER, MIGHTY, ALMIGHTY!

John 14:
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 10:
[30] I and my Father are one.

John 10:
36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Even the Jews understood Jesus was claiming to be God, by Jesus saying He and God are one, and Jesus calling Himself the Son of God.
And twice they attempted to stone Jesus to death for saying those things.

John 10:
[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.



* There is Gods Knowledge, given in Scripture, believe it or not.
* There there is Gods Wisdom, Gods Understanding, given by God.

You debate with your Opinion against Scriptural Knowledge, which you have not seen or ignore.

John 1.1 is very clear to those who are interested in the Truth. The Father is GOD and Jesus Christ is GOD

Now prove this wrong

 

[MatthewG]

Would you say that Jesus did or didn’t have the same reasons to worship God?

Yes, Jesus had the very same reasons to worship God in the way I described. If one follows Jesus they will understand that the one we worship is our Father in Heaven who has adopted us as his children by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We end prayers in Jesus name to give God glory.

If people pray to Jesus it’s between them and God, however in my own life I pray to the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Interesting question. I think that historicism as a hermeneutic, and the way one looks at how prophecy has, and is, being so wonderfully fulfilled in history is the only hermeneutic that makes sense of the place and importance of prophecy in relation to the big picture of the ongoing conflict between Christ and Satan. It's the only hermeneutic that actually covers and honestly deals with the last 2000 years of human history, and the continuous development of both sides in the controversy... Satan's use of human institutions in his attack on God's church, and Christ's development of His people as a standard against apostasy. Preterism and futurism both ignore that history, and have no explanation for doing so. Historicism is a witness to God's sovereignty and power over the nations, and is a faith affirming witness to His willingness to sanctify and grow individuals according to His will.

Thank you.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

We can pray directly to Jesus Christ

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
John 14:13-14

 

[Taken]

John 1.1 is very clear to those who are interested in the Truth. The Father is GOD and Jesus Christ is GOD

Now prove this wrong

Post 153 was “apparently” you quoting @Aunty Jane.
However in was boxed within your comment, appeared as your words.
And my comment was to that.
Why would I attempt to PROVE WRONG my own post saying God and Jesus ARE ONE?

Best to keep what others say in their own boxed space to avoid confusion of who is saying what.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Post 153 was “apparently” you quoting @Aunty Jane.
However in was boxed within your comment, appeared as your words.
And my comment was to that.
Why would I attempt to PROVE WRONG my own post saying God and Jesus ARE ONE?

Best to keep what others say in their own boxed space to avoid confusion of who is saying what.

Do you mean that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one and the same Person?

Or the Father is GOD and Jesus Christ is GOD

 

[Taken]

Do you mean that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one and the same Person?

Or the Father is GOD and Jesus Christ is GOD

Son, Father, Holy Spirit ~ .....................One God
Lord, God, Almighty ~......................... One God
Holy, Holy, Holy ~ .............................. One God
The First and The Last ~ ......................One God
Without Beginning, Without Ending ~ ....One God
Creator and Maker ~ ...........................One God
Without Daddy and Mommy ~ ..............One God

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Son, Father, Holy Spirit ~ .....................One God
Lord, God, Almighty ~......................... One God
Holy, Holy, Holy ~ .............................. One God
The First and The Last ~ ......................One God
Without Beginning, Without Ending ~ ....One God
Creator and Maker ~ ...........................One God
Without Daddy and Mommy ~ ..............One God

6?

 

[quietthinker]

Who Do You Worship?
Worship is evidenced by what/who consumes our attention.

So what is it that gets our attention?.....food, popularity, money, religion, acquisition of, sport, fashion etc?......anything that caters to the self.

The things which come out of our mouths give evidence to what captures our attention.....our behaviours follow suite.

Can we fool ourselves by believing a projected image?.....you know, that of a do-gooder in whatever scene absorbs us? ......yes, its the primary game played in both religious and secular circles.

Doing good as defined by Jesus is something low on the scale of awareness ......'when have we done all these things' both the wicked and the righteous ask?

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 1.1 is very clear to those who are interested in the Truth. The Father is GOD and Jesus Christ is GOD

Now prove this wrong

FWIW, I have done so many times.....but those who cannot see past their own indoctrination will never acknowledge it.
And, the KJV is the worst translation for Bible study. It's outdated and needs to be put back on the shelf and more reliable modern translations used.

So what does John 1:1 say in Greek? This is the language in which it was written so is it different to the English at all? The answer is YES!
John 1:1 Mounce Greek to English Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

See that little word "ho" there? It means "the" and it is used in connection with the first mention of "theos" (god) in that verse, but in not the second. Do you see the omission? The word "ho" is left untranslated in that first mention of "God" because it distinguishes "the God" (Yahweh) from a "god" "ho Logos".

If you go to Strongs Concordance and look up the word "theos" you will see that its primary definition is....
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". So calling someone "theos" is not calling them Yahweh. The polytheistic Greeks had no word for the one nameless God of the Jews, so they simply called him "the God" to distinguish him from other "gods" which as the definition shows could refer to any 'gods or goddesses, deities or divinities'.

Paul used "theos" to describe satan. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel "gods" because he had divinely authorized them. (John 10:34-36)

You hold onto this word like there is no other meaning.....John 1:1 is not saying that Jesus is God.....
If the divine name had not been disobediently abandoned by the Jews, John 1:1 would have read very differently....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine."

Jesus was "a god" in the sense that he was divinely sent, and divinely authorized to act as mankind's redeemer.
At John 17:3, in prayer to his Father, Jesus said..."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." Jesus acknowledges that his Father is "the only true God" and himself as being "sent" by him.
He is called God's "holy servant" (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

You can hang on to that old and tired doctrine invented by an apostate church hundreds of years after Jesus died....or you can believe the truth of the Bible.....its up to you.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

FWIW, I have done so many times.....but those who cannot see past their own indoctrination will never acknowledge it.
And, the KJV is the worst translation for Bible study. It's outdated and needs to be put back on the shelf and more reliable modern translations used.

So what does John 1:1 say in Greek? This is the language in which it was written so is it different to the English at all? The answer is YES!
John 1:1 Mounce Greek to English Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

See that little word "ho" there? It means "the" and it is used in connection with the first mention of "theos" (god) in that verse, but in not the second. Do you see the omission? The word "ho" is left untranslated in that first mention of "God" because it distinguishes "the God" (Yahweh) from a "god" "ho Logos".

If you go to Strongs Concordance and look up the word "theos" you will see that its primary definition is....
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". So calling someone "theos" is not calling them Yahweh. The polytheistic Greeks had no word for the one nameless God of the Jews, so they simply called him "the God" to distinguish him from other "gods" which as the definition shows could refer to any 'gods or goddesses, deities or divinities'.

Paul used "theos" to describe satan. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel "gods" because he had divinely authorized them. (John 10:34-36)

You hold onto this word like there is no other meaning.....John 1:1 is not saying that Jesus is God.....
If the divine name had not been disobediently abandoned by the Jews, John 1:1 would have read very differently....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine."

Jesus was "a god" in the sense that he was divinely sent, and divinely authorized to act as mankind's redeemer.
At John 17:3, in prayer to his Father, Jesus said..."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." Jesus acknowledges that his Father is "the only true God" and himself as being "sent" by him.
He is called God's "holy servant" (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

You can hang on to that old and tired doctrine invented by an apostate church hundreds of years after Jesus died....or you can believe the truth of the Bible.....its up to you.

When John writes, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”, he does not mean that “ὁ λόγος”, is a “secondary god”, as suggested by Origen, and the Jehovah's Witnesses do. We have seen that the use and non use of the Greek article, does not denote a different meaning for “θεος”. What we have is a simple sentence structure. “Every sentence must contain two parts, a subject and a predicate. The subject is that of which something is stated. The predicate is that which is stated of the subject…A predicate noun or adjective seldom has the article” (William Goodwin, Greek Grammar, sec. 890, 956, pp.196, 208)

“General rule, The subject has the article, while the predicate is without it” (William Jelf, A Grammar of the Greek Language, sec. 460, p.120). In John 1:1, the “subject” is no doubt, “The Word”, as it is about Him. The “predicate” in this last sentence, is “θεος”, which is a statement about the “subject”. John is here stating, that “The Word”, is “God”, as much as “The God”, besides (πρὸς) Whom He is. In John 8:54, Jesus says to the Jews, “εστιν ο πατηρ μου ο δοξαζων με ον υμεις λεγετε οτι θεος υμων εστιν”, which is literally, “it is My Father Who Glorifies Me, Who you say that God your He is”. Here, “ο πατηρ μου (My Father)” is the subject, and “θεος”, is the predicate. It is never translated as “god”, or “a god”. So why different in John 1:1, where the grammatical construction is the same?

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that John should have written, “καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”. Had John written this, then he would have meant that “ὁ λόγος”, was identical to “τὸν θεόν”, in the previous sentence. Grammatically, however, he had just written, “καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, where the use of the preposition, “πρὸς”, is clear that two distinct Persons are meant. It becomes a contradiction, and confusing, if he wrote, “καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”.

The word order, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”, literally, “and God was the Word”, is not a problem. As we have in John 4:24, where the Greek reads: “πνεῦμα ὁ θεός”, which is literally, “spirit the God”, but translated, “God is spirit”. This does not mean that God the Father, of Whom Jesus is speaking, is The Holy Spirit, but, that He is a “spiritual Person”. Here, like in John 1:1, “θεὸς” we have the predicate of the sentence, “πνεῦμα”, without the article. It is very clear, that John means, “and the Word was God”, and no other reading is correct. Interestingly, the Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, has in the 1864 edition, in the right-hand version, “and the Logos was God”. In the New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, he translates the Greek, “and the Word was God”, even though, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, he denied that Jesus Christ is GOD.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

FWIW, I have done so many times.....but those who cannot see past their own indoctrination will never acknowledge it.
And, the KJV is the worst translation for Bible study. It's outdated and needs to be put back on the shelf and more reliable modern translations used.

So what does John 1:1 say in Greek? This is the language in which it was written so is it different to the English at all? The answer is YES!
John 1:1 Mounce Greek to English Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

See that little word "ho" there? It means "the" and it is used in connection with the first mention of "theos" (god) in that verse, but in not the second. Do you see the omission? The word "ho" is left untranslated in that first mention of "God" because it distinguishes "the God" (Yahweh) from a "god" "ho Logos".

If you go to Strongs Concordance and look up the word "theos" you will see that its primary definition is....
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". So calling someone "theos" is not calling them Yahweh. The polytheistic Greeks had no word for the one nameless God of the Jews, so they simply called him "the God" to distinguish him from other "gods" which as the definition shows could refer to any 'gods or goddesses, deities or divinities'.

Paul used "theos" to describe satan. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel "gods" because he had divinely authorized them. (John 10:34-36)

You hold onto this word like there is no other meaning.....John 1:1 is not saying that Jesus is God.....
If the divine name had not been disobediently abandoned by the Jews, John 1:1 would have read very differently....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine."

Jesus was "a god" in the sense that he was divinely sent, and divinely authorized to act as mankind's redeemer.
At John 17:3, in prayer to his Father, Jesus said..."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." Jesus acknowledges that his Father is "the only true God" and himself as being "sent" by him.
He is called God's "holy servant" (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

You can hang on to that old and tired doctrine invented by an apostate church hundreds of years after Jesus died....or you can believe the truth of the Bible.....its up to you.

“Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο” (John 1:18)

“God no one has seen at any time the Unique God Who is in the bosom of the Father He has revealed Him”

Firstly, this reading with “θεὸς” (God), instead of “υιος” (Son), is the oldest, and has wider textual evidence. Of the Greek manuscripts, we have: The Codices P66 (about 200 A.D.), P75 (early 3rd cent.), Sinaticus (4th), Vaticanus (4th), Ephraemi (5th). Earlier than this, we have this reading “θεὸς” in, Ignatius (died 110), Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (130-200), Clement of Alexandria (150-215), and The Diatessaron, (about 180). We also have the testimony of the early “heretics”, like Valentinus of Egypt (2nd cent), Origen (185-254), Arius of Alexandria (250-336), who read “θεὸς” in John 1:18, and not “υιος”. The evidence for “υιος”, is also very early, and also known to Irenaeus, Clement and Origen. The earliest Greek manuscript is the 5th century Codex Alexandrinus, over 200 years after the P66. In more recent times, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Greek Interlinears, use “θεὸς” in the text, but render it as “god”, because of their theology. This is followed in their New World Translation. It should be noted, in both uses “Θεὸν, θεὸς” in 1:18, there is no article in the Greek (τὸν θεόν, ὁ θεὸς), so there is no grammatical argument for the second use to be translated as “god”, other than the fact that it refers to Jesus Christ, and the JW’s theology rejects His full Deity! The Unitarian New Testament by Dr Noyes, also has “God”. So, even those opposed to the Bible’s Teaching that Jesus Christ IS “God”, in this verse accept the correct reading as “θεὸς”.

In this verse we have “the Word”, from John 1:1, 14, Who is called, “θεὸς”. Then, we also have “Θεὸν” used for “τοῦ πατρὸς” (the Father). As it says that one “God” was “into the bosom” of the other “God”, it is clear that BOTH cannot be IDENTICAL, as in the same “Individual”, or “Person”. There is a DISTINCTION here, between “Θεὸν” and “θεὸς”. This verse clearly destroys any teaching that says the God of the Holy Bible is “Unipersonal” (also known as Unitarianism), or that Jesus Christ alone is God (Jesus only heresy), or that the Father alone is God, or that The Father is in The Godhead, “Primary”, and Jesus Christ is “Secondary”, or “Inferior”. The Bible is very clear, that there is only ONE GOD. It is also very clear, from this verse, and John 1:1, that there are TWO Persons Who are EQUALLY God. Then, with The Holy Spirit as also “God” (Acts 5:3-4, “ψεύσασθαι σε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον...ἐψεύσω ἀνθρώποις ἀλλὰ τῷ θεῷ.lied to the Holy Spirit...lied not to a human, but to God”; 2 Cor. 3:18, “ἀπὸ κυρίου πνεύματος, from The Lord Spirit), we get “Trinitarianism”. Unitarianism is an unBiblical heresy

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

FWIW, I have done so many times.....but those who cannot see past their own indoctrination will never acknowledge it.
And, the KJV is the worst translation for Bible study. It's outdated and needs to be put back on the shelf and more reliable modern translations used.

So what does John 1:1 say in Greek? This is the language in which it was written so is it different to the English at all? The answer is YES!
John 1:1 Mounce Greek to English Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

See that little word "ho" there? It means "the" and it is used in connection with the first mention of "theos" (god) in that verse, but in not the second. Do you see the omission? The word "ho" is left untranslated in that first mention of "God" because it distinguishes "the God" (Yahweh) from a "god" "ho Logos".

If you go to Strongs Concordance and look up the word "theos" you will see that its primary definition is....
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". So calling someone "theos" is not calling them Yahweh. The polytheistic Greeks had no word for the one nameless God of the Jews, so they simply called him "the God" to distinguish him from other "gods" which as the definition shows could refer to any 'gods or goddesses, deities or divinities'.

Paul used "theos" to describe satan. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Jesus said that his Father called human judges in Israel "gods" because he had divinely authorized them. (John 10:34-36)

You hold onto this word like there is no other meaning.....John 1:1 is not saying that Jesus is God.....
If the divine name had not been disobediently abandoned by the Jews, John 1:1 would have read very differently....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine."

Jesus was "a god" in the sense that he was divinely sent, and divinely authorized to act as mankind's redeemer.
At John 17:3, in prayer to his Father, Jesus said..."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." Jesus acknowledges that his Father is "the only true God" and himself as being "sent" by him.
He is called God's "holy servant" (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

You can hang on to that old and tired doctrine invented by an apostate church hundreds of years after Jesus died....or you can believe the truth of the Bible.....its up to you.

I notice that you igonred the Bible evidence that I posted, where Jesus Christ says for Himself, that He is Yahweh. which is also clear from other passages.

So, your assertions that Jesus never says that He is Yahweh, or that the Bible also does not teach this, is complete rubbish! It is only in your "theology", that you wish this was the case, but the Bible proves without any doubt, that you are 100% WRONG!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I notice that you igonred the Bible evidence that I posted, where Jesus Christ says for Himself, that He is Yahweh. which is also clear from other passages.

I have a life outside of CF....I am not always at my computer for one...and for two, I am in a different time zone to the UK.....so I don't ignore people unless I have said all I need to say and the same people just want to rehash the same tired old stuff.

You can prattle on about Greek grammar all you want...the problem lies in the meaning of the word, "theos" which I see you ignored.

So, your assertions that Jesus never says that He is Yahweh, or that the Bible also does not teach this, is complete rubbish!

Or it is absolutely true. because you cannot provide a single verse where Jesus ever says he is Yahweh.

It is only in your "theology", that you wish this was the case, but the Bible proves without any doubt, that you are 100% WRONG!

I am happy to allow Jesus to do the judging on all these issues. There is only one truth, not many versions, so I guess we will all see soon enough who gets the nod and who gets the rejection.....either Jesus is God...or he isn't, and the implications of either position being wrong will have everlasting consequences.

“Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε ὁ μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο” (John 1:18)

“God no one has seen at any time the Unique God Who is in the bosom of the Father He has revealed Him”

You do understand what this scripture is saying? Please read it again.....did you miss this bit..."God no one has seen at any time"......it doesn't say "no one has seen the Father at any time", but no one has seen "God" at any time......so how many people saw Jesus?

"the Unique God Who is in the bosom of the Father He has revealed Him"...."monogenes theos" literally means "only begotten god", which seems to upset trinitarians because it puts them in the uncomfortable position of trying to explain how God can be "begotten".....so they fiddle with this verse in many translations inserting words that are not there, like the KJV does.
The Mounce Interlinear even puts words in that don't belong.....in an effort to make the Bible support the trinity....which it doesn't.
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai." (Mounce)
There is no "Son himself" in John 1:18.

Check out all the English translations who put "Son" in that verse when it is not there in the Greek. This is trinitarian bias at its finest.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John 1:18

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (KJV)
There is no "only begotten son" in that verse in the oldest known manuscripts. It says "only begotten god". So please explain how 'No one has ever seen God'...and then explain how "God" can be "begotten".

"Monogenes" simply means an "only child" in other scripture. There is no special word for how Jesus was "begotten" because in every case it seems that the one "begotten" needs a "begetter" who lived before him, and who caused his existence.

The very fact that the relationship between Yahweh and Jesus is said by both of them to be "Father and Son"....why even use those terms to humans if it is not in their understanding of what that means?

Hebrews 1:18...."By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his G3439 son;" ...His "only begotten son".
Was Isaac God? Its the same word...."monogenes yhios" (son) is not in John 1:18 in the oldest manuscripts.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5)
If Jesus is the appointed "mediator between God and men".....that means that he cannot be God and a mediator between himself and mankind at the same time.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I have a life outside of CF....I am not always at my computer for one...and for two, I am in a different time zone to the UK.....so I don't ignore people unless I have said all I need to say and the same people just want to rehash the same tired old stuff.

You can prattle on about Greek grammar all you want...the problem lies in the meaning of the word, "theos" which I see you ignored.


Or it is absolutely true. because you cannot provide a single verse where Jesus ever says he is Yahweh.


I am happy to allow Jesus to do the judging on all these issues. There is only one truth, not many versions, so I guess we will all see soon enough who gets the nod and who gets the rejection.....either Jesus is God...or he isn't, and the implications of either position being wrong will have everlasting consequences.


You do understand what this scripture is saying? Please read it again.....did you miss this bit..."God no one has seen at any time"......it doesn't say "no one has seen the Father at any time", but no one has seen "God" at any time......so how many people saw Jesus?

"the Unique God Who is in the bosom of the Father He has revealed Him"...."monogenes theos" literally means "only begotten god", which seems to upset trinitarians because it puts them in the uncomfortable position of trying to explain how God can be "begotten".....so they fiddle with this verse in many translations inserting words that are not there, like the KJV does.
The Mounce Interlinear even puts words in that don't belong.....in an effort to make the Bible support the trinity....which it doesn't.
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai." (Mounce)
There is no "Son himself" in John 1:18.

Check out all the English translations who put "Son" in that verse when it is not there in the Greek. This is trinitarian bias at its finest.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John 1:18

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (KJV)
There is no "only begotten son" in that verse in the oldest known manuscripts. It says "only begotten god". So please explain how 'No one has ever seen God'...and then explain how "God" can be "begotten".

"Monogenes" simply means an "only child" in other scripture. There is no special word for how Jesus was "begotten" because in every case it seems that the one "begotten" needs a "begetter" who lived before him, and who caused his existence.

The very fact that the relationship between Yahweh and Jesus is said by both of them to be "Father and Son"....why even use those terms to humans if it is not in their understanding of what that means?

Hebrews 1:18...."By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his G3439 son;" ...His "only begotten son".
Was Isaac God? Its the same word...."monogenes yhios" (son) is not in John 1:18 in the oldest manuscripts.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5)
If Jesus is the appointed "mediator between God and men".....that means that he cannot be God and a mediator between himself and mankind at the same time.

the word “μονογενὴς”, which versions like the King James (Wycliffe, Tyndale, ASV, RSV, YLT, etc), translate “only begotten”. This, however, is not what the Greek means. “μονογενὴς” is a compound word, itself from “μόνος (one) and γένος (kind)”, literally, “one of a kind”, or “unique”, or “one and only”. If John wished to say “only begotten”, then he would have used the correct Greek word, “μονογέννητος”. “μονογενὴς” has not “begetting” in its use.

"only...Also unique (in kind) of someth. that it the only example of its category...'unique and alone'" (W F Ardnt and F W Gingrich; A Greek-English Lexicon, p.529)

"the only member of am kin or kind: hence, generally, only, single, unique" (H G Liddell and R Scott; A Greek-English Lexicon, p.1144. Revised Edition)

"μονογενὴς is literally “one of a kind,” “only,” “unique” (unicus), not “only-begotten,” which would be μονογέννητος, (unigenitus), and is common in the LXX in this sense" (J H Moulton & G Milligan; Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. pp. 416-417)

“But the word can also be used more generally without ref. to derivation in the sense of “unique,” “unparalleled,” “incomparable,”” (Gerhard Kittel; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament)

When “μονογενὴς” is used for Jesus Christ, the term INCOMPARABLE is the best to describe Him.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I have a life outside of CF....I am not always at my computer for one...and for two, I am in a different time zone to the UK.....so I don't ignore people unless I have said all I need to say and the same people just want to rehash the same tired old stuff.

You can prattle on about Greek grammar all you want...the problem lies in the meaning of the word, "theos" which I see you ignored.


Or it is absolutely true. because you cannot provide a single verse where Jesus ever says he is Yahweh.


I am happy to allow Jesus to do the judging on all these issues. There is only one truth, not many versions, so I guess we will all see soon enough who gets the nod and who gets the rejection.....either Jesus is God...or he isn't, and the implications of either position being wrong will have everlasting consequences.


You do understand what this scripture is saying? Please read it again.....did you miss this bit..."God no one has seen at any time"......it doesn't say "no one has seen the Father at any time", but no one has seen "God" at any time......so how many people saw Jesus?

"the Unique God Who is in the bosom of the Father He has revealed Him"...."monogenes theos" literally means "only begotten god", which seems to upset trinitarians because it puts them in the uncomfortable position of trying to explain how God can be "begotten".....so they fiddle with this verse in many translations inserting words that are not there, like the KJV does.
The Mounce Interlinear even puts words in that don't belong.....in an effort to make the Bible support the trinity....which it doesn't.
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai." (Mounce)
There is no "Son himself" in John 1:18.

Check out all the English translations who put "Son" in that verse when it is not there in the Greek. This is trinitarian bias at its finest.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John 1:18

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (KJV)
There is no "only begotten son" in that verse in the oldest known manuscripts. It says "only begotten god". So please explain how 'No one has ever seen God'...and then explain how "God" can be "begotten".

"Monogenes" simply means an "only child" in other scripture. There is no special word for how Jesus was "begotten" because in every case it seems that the one "begotten" needs a "begetter" who lived before him, and who caused his existence.

The very fact that the relationship between Yahweh and Jesus is said by both of them to be "Father and Son"....why even use those terms to humans if it is not in their understanding of what that means?

Hebrews 1:18...."By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his G3439 son;" ...His "only begotten son".
Was Isaac God? Its the same word...."monogenes yhios" (son) is not in John 1:18 in the oldest manuscripts.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5)
If Jesus is the appointed "mediator between God and men".....that means that he cannot be God and a mediator between himself and mankind at the same time.

God...The Unique God

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

The Incomparable Jesus Christ In The Prologue of John

 

[Matthias]

God the Father says to WORSHIP Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1.6

Jesus Christ worships God the Father, not the Trinity.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Jesus Christ worships God the Father, not the Trinity.

Jesus does not worship the Father

 

[Matthias]

Jesus does not worship the Father

Do you hold that to be the teaching of trinitarianism?

A point of agreement between us: Jesus did not, does not, and never will worship the Trinity.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Do you hold that to be the teaching of trinitarianism?

A point of agreement between us: Jesus did not, does not, and never will worship the Trinity.

I don't know what you are talking about

Read John 5.23 which is very clear that all must Honour Jesus Christ in the same way that Honour is given to the Father

Absolute equality between the Father and Jesus