Who Do You Worship?

[Aunty Jane]

I thought this was an interesting piece. Before I finished reading it I wondered to myself, “Is this going to be a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ presentation or a ‘do as I say, do what I do’ presentation?”. . . . .


I found his “do as I say and do what I do” presentation persuasive.

For me, I too expect those who profess to be "Christians" to live up to the teachings of the "Lord" they claim to serve.
Yet I find so many who justify NOT doing what Jesus taught, and therefore NOT "doing the will of the Father" who sent him, and who taught him all that he was to teach others. (John 7:16)

Here are a few....
1) Matthew 5:43-48...
“You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don’t even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Who is our "enemy" in this verse? It is anyone who persecutes or opposes us...he is contrasted here as the opposite of one's "neighbor".
If that "enemy" is not a personal threat but a national one, does that then excuse a Christian from obeying Christ's teaching on this? Did Jesus urge his first century followers (who were all initially Jewish) to fight against the Romans who were oppressing them? They were the government of the day and yet Jesus was careful to avoid getting involved in any political issue, and taught his disciples that they were to be NO PART of that world.....did that somehow change over time? Are Christ's teachings to be ignored by those indoctrinated to put their patriotic duty before their Christian duty? The Jewish zealots who plotted to overthrow the Romans, lost their battle in a humiliating defeat at Masada. God was not with them.

If we have blood on our hands, we have lost favor with God. That includes supporting those who shed blood even if they do not use a weapon themselves. Unless God sanctions a war, he will not support the participants. (Isaiah 1:15)
God has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel when they had a God-given land to defend.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued....
2) How we worship and who we worship.
John 17:3...Jesus said...
"This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent—Jesus Christ."
In order to "worship the Father in spirit and truth", we first have to know who Yahweh/Jehovah is.....and who Jesus Christ is....no mention of the holy spirit here, so do we not have to "know him"?"......we had better find out because our eternal life depends on it.

Jesus Christ emphasized something important to the Samaritan woman at the well in Sychar. He told her..... “Believe Me, woman, an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)

Worshipping what you do not know is futile and meaningless. Jesus worshipped the God of the Jews, who "sent him" on a rescue mission. The reason why he was "sent" is because God had no other way to undo what satan and his deceived minions had accomplished.....selling the whole human race into slavery to sin and death. A redeemer was required to offer "atonement" for the sin of Adam, who willfully chose to disobey his God. (Romans 5:12) Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't, (1 Timothy 2:14)....his choice to side with his wife rather than his God, changed the course of human history. So now a redeemer was required to offer the equivalent of what Adam threw away....perfect sinless life. Only another perfect sinless life would balance the scales of God's perfect justice.

If Jesus was God, he could not have died because God is immortal, and not only can he not die....he did not need to. The Father "sent" his most trusted and beloved son to buy back, what Adam had lost for all his offspring. "Atonement"...."at-one-ment"...is 'one for one'...'like for like'. (Exodus 21:23-25; Matthew 20:28) God could not give his immortal life for a mortal's sin, because that is not atonement. It would be a ridiculous and impossible overpayment. Jesus had to become 100% human and die the same death as Adam. This is what made him "the son of man"....being sent from heaven is what made him "the son of God". Neither role contradicted the other.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued...
3) Following the "traditions of men". What did Jesus say about the Pharisees?
Mark 7:6-8...
"He answered them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written:

These people honor Me with their lips,
but their heart is far from Me.
7 They worship Me in vain,
teaching as doctrines the commands of men.

8 Disregarding the command of God, you keep the tradition of men.”

Where did these "traditions" come from? And how did following them make these men "hypocrites"?
A hypocrite is a person who pretends to be what he is not; a person whose actions are out of harmony with his words.
Does Christendom follow "the traditions of men" in preference to following God's commands in scripture, making them into hypocrites?

Shedding blood in war they do, praising the "Prince of Peace" with one side of their mouth and promoting the god of war with the other....this is no way to win favor with God, it is currying "friendship with the world" (James 4:4).....so what other areas do they follow men instead of God's word?

Jesus Christ identified as hypocrites those who make gifts of mercy with showy display, who pray and fast to be seen of men, and who pick on the straw-like faults of their brothers but do nothing about removing their own rafter-like faults. Christ classified as such those who claimed to be God’s servants but who failed to discern the significance of the time in which they were living and the events that were occurring, while readily drawing conclusions from the appearance of earth and sky as to what the weather would be like. (Luke 12:54-56)

In these "last days" when the return of Christ as judge is imminent, most churches are not preparing their flocks for what is about to take place concerning the rulership of this earth. Bible prophesy tells us that Jehovah's day will come suddenly, without warning...
"For you yourselves know very well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)
Do people generally know this? And do they understand that a cry of "Peace and Security" will precede this day of judgment? What does that mean? It means that on the surface of it, things might appear to be OK....but under the surface things are definitely NOT OK. It is a last deception of this world's ruler, satan the devil before the final curtain comes down on his wicked system of things, crushing all corrupt human governments to dust and replacing them with God's Kingdom, as his servants have been proclaiming for many decades. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:14)

What have "Christians" been filling their lives with? Devotion to pagan celebrations that come with monotonous regularity year after year, getting further and further away from the Master they claim to serve. Christendom's two most important celebrations are in fact not Christian in origin at all. They are nothing more that commercial greed fests, filled with greed and hedonism.
The apostle Paul was clear about what we include as part of our worship....

2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
"Do not be mismatched with unbelievers. For what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15 What agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s sanctuary have with idols? For we are the sanctuary of the living God, as God said:

I will dwell among them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
17 Therefore, come out from among them
and be separate, says the Lord;
do not touch any unclean thing,
and I will welcome you.
18 I will be a Father to you,
and you will be sons and daughters to Me,
says the Lord Almighty."

If we are condoning and celebrating events and festivals that have clear pagan origins, then we are not "separating" ourselves from what God considers spiritually "unclean". There can be no sharing or partnership with those who do not know the true God.....its like fusing the truth with lies....light with darkness....Christ and the devil.

Just these few things alone tell me that Christendom has lost the plot....not resembling anything that Jesus taught at all. It also makes more sense of the parable of "the wheat and the weeds", both would be separated before "the harvest". I believe that the separation is almost complete, and that the reapers will soon gather the "weeds" for disposal, and cleanse this world of everything that satan planted. Then and only then can mankind return to God's original purpose for them.....(Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[farouk]

Scripture has been presented to show the Father calling His Son, God.
The Son stated He and the Father are one.
We know they are one in character, and I'm purpose, similar to how we also maybe one in them.
What we are not told is how they are one in relationship. In personality, clearly 2. But in divine DNA, as a Son proceeding from the Father, that is a mystery that had not been shared with us. However, we have not been left in total ignorance. My son is a human man. What is so difficult in believing God's Son is a divine Being?

Hebrews 1 is pretty clear, indeed: "Unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever..."

cc @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d

 

[Aunty Jane]

Scripture has been presented to show the Father calling His Son, God.

I'd like a dollar for each time I have shot that verse down in English.....Titus 2:13 is virtually the same as Titus 1:4...
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (2:13 KJV)

"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." (1:4 KJV)
Which one is contradicting the other?.....neither! Both mean the same thing....in Greek the phrasing is different.
2:13...in the Greek Interlinear, it say....."προσδεχόμενοι awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδα hope καὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus". This shows that 2:13 agrees with 1:4.

Jude 25....ASV
"to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen" shows that God is our Savior "through" Jesus Christ.

The Son stated He and the Father are one.
We know they are one in character, and I'm purpose, similar to how we also maybe one in them.

Yes....Christ and his Father are "one" with the disciples of Jesus as well (John 17:22)....it means unity of thought and purpose....nothing to do with Jesus being God. Its about Jesus being like his Father in every way. He is the image of his Father (Colossians 1:15)....just as we might say the same thing about a father and son today, if they share similar physical appearance and characteristics of one another.

What we are not told is how they are one in relationship. In personality, clearly 2. But in divine DNA, as a Son proceeding from the Father, that is a mystery that had not been shared with us.

If it was supposed to be a "mystery" as some claim, then why would the Father identify himself as a father and his son as his son.....are we really left to ponder how a father can produce a son? In the spirit realm, obviously not in the way of material beings, but we get the point...don't we?
The Father of necessity must exist before his son, as the begetter because the begetter has to exist first. The two are separate entities as we can clearly see in the scriptures. So please tell me how God can be both Father and son...?

However, we have not been left in total ignorance. My son is a human man. What is so difficult in believing God's Son is a divine Being?

Yes Jesus is a "divine" being because his existence was caused by his Father. "Divinity" however does not necessarily mean "deity". How many times have we discussed this....?

The truth is.....your son is not you.....he is a completely separate being that came from you. You existed first and created him by the union of yourself and his mother. Who is Jesus' mother? It cannot be Mary because she was the human 'vehicle' through whom God brought his pre-existent son into the material world. Jesus existed "in the beginning" "with God" before any other creation....he is the product of his Father alone, which makes him the unique "only-begotten son" that Bible says he is.
He was created by his Father.....how is that not obvious?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hebrews 1 is pretty clear, indeed: "Unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever..."

Believers in the Trinity prefer the Authorized Version, or King James Version, which renders Hebrews 1:8 as above.....“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

So many of these verses plucked out of thin air do not, in context, mean what you all think they do....

 

[Brakelite]

I'd like a dollar for each time I have shot that verse down in English.

Very dogmatic aren't you?
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13
This is a specific reference to the second coming of Jesus. It is referring to Christ as “Saviour” and “the great God”. Some translations place a different emphasis on this verse.
“ while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 NIV
“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13 NASB
“in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 Weymouth translation
“abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;” Titus 2:13 Wycliffe Bible (1395)
In these translations, the emphasis is on the appearing of “glory” . This though does not change the fact that Christ is referred to here as our “Saviour” and “the great God”.
In the Interpreter’s Bible it says (after saying that some translate this verse as meaning the Father and the Son) “It is preferable, however, to suppose with most commentators, ancient as well as modern, that both epithets refer to Jesus, even though nowhere else in the N.T. is Jesus spoken of as our great God. This is the natural construction in Greek of two nouns following one article (“the”)”. (The Interpreters Bible, Volume 11, pages 539-540, Comments on Titus 2:13)
Another three commentaries say the same. Note they all say that the parousia (the second coming) never includes the Father – only Christ. Therefore the text you claim to have shot down is specifically informing you that Jesus, the one coming, is the Great God.

 

[Brakelite]

So please tell me how God can be both Father and son...?

well. That's the mystery isn't it. We know the Father is God. We are told the Son is God. Unless you call God a liar of course.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” Hebrews 1:7-8
Paul is now bringing the introductory words of his epistle towards a climax. The above words are citations from Psalm 104:4 and Psalms 45:6-7. The writer is applying the latter to the Father speaking to His Son. The Father is referring to His Son as God. This is the highest acclamation that could possibly be made of the Son. It is the testimony of God Himself. God never said to any of the angels,
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He only said it to His Son. This is the point that the writer of Hebrews is making (see 1:5 and 1:13). Christ is deity. The angels are not deity. The verses following say
“Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Hebrews 1:9-10
Here we see God referring to Himself as His Son’s God (theos). Notice too that the Father calls His Son “Lord”. This means that God has called His Son both God (theos) and Lord (kurios). The Father also refers to His Son as the Creator. All things were made through Him (John 1:1, Hebrews 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-17 etc.). In these verses in Hebrews, God (theos) is speaking to God (theos). This should remind us of Genesis 1:26 and 11:7. As the apostle drew his opening remarks to a close he asks “But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” Hebrews 1:13-14
Paul is quoting Psalm 110:1.
Clearly, Paul is explaining that the Son, begotten before creation, was not an angel in the created sense.


Further to the above thoughts on the second coming...
“Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.” Psalms 50:3
In similar fashion Isaiah prophesied,
“He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.” Isaiah 25:8-9
When speaking of this same event (the return of Jesus), the apostle Paul wrote
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
It is the “Lord himself” who is returning for His people. He will do so with “the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God”. We shall then all shout, “this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us”. God is the Saviour of mankind (1 Timothy 2:3, 4:10, Titus 2:10, 3:4, Jude 25).
God is our redeemer. Throughout the Bible, God speaks of Himself as Saviour and Redeemer. Through the prophet Isaiah He said
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:10-11
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6
“Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” Isaiah 45:21

 

[Nancy]

I appreciate it also, age catches up with us all. I just haven't got into the habit of using it myself yet.

Yes, took me a bit as well. I'm sure you must remember Willie T. had bad eyesight so I did it for him too. Sure miss him. I don't know how to keep it that way and changing the font on my puter does not a thing as this is a closed forum and it will not effect it like when writing to a friend or something.

 

[Matthias]

Scripture has been presented to show the Father calling His Son, God.
The Son stated He and the Father are one.
We know they are one in character, and I'm purpose, similar to how we also maybe one in them.
What we are not told is how they are one in relationship. In personality, clearly 2. But in divine DNA, as a Son proceeding from the Father, that is a mystery that had not been shared with us. However, we have not been left in total ignorance. My son is a human man. What is so difficult in believing God's Son is a divine Being?

I don’t know anything about “divine DNA” and don’t believe it has any relevance at all to Jesus.

Adam is also the son of God (Luke 3:38). Nothing to do with divine DNA.

Your son’s origin is in the womb of his mother. Nothing to do with divine DNA.

Jesus’ origin is in the womb of his mother. Nothing to do with divine DNA.

When, where, how and by whom was Jesus begotten and conceived? (Matthew 1; Luke 1)

Jesus is a miraculously begotten and conceived human person.

 

[Pearl]

In answer to the OP's question, I worship my God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - and in all his many names. Praise be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[Brakelite]

I'd like a dollar for each time I have shot that verse down in English.....Titus 2:13 is virtually the same as Titus 1:4...
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (2:13 KJV)

"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." (1:4 KJV)
Which one is contradicting the other?.....neither! Both mean the same thing....in Greek the phrasing is different.
2:13...in the Greek Interlinear, it say....."προσδεχόμενοι awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδα hope καὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus". This shows that 2:13 agrees with 1:4.

Jude 25....ASV
"to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen" shows that God is our Savior "through" Jesus Christ.


Yes....Christ and his Father are "one" with the disciples of Jesus as well (John 17:22)....it means unity of thought and purpose....nothing to do with Jesus being God. Its about Jesus being like his Father in every way. He is the image of his Father (Colossians 1:15)....just as we might say the same thing about a father and son today, if they share similar physical appearance and characteristics of one another.


If it was supposed to be a "mystery" as some claim, then why would the Father identify himself as a father and his son as his son.....are we really left to ponder how a father can produce a son? In the spirit realm, obviously not in the way of material beings, but we get the point...don't we?
The Father of necessity must exist before his son, as the begetter because the begetter has to exist first. The two are separate entities as we can clearly see in the scriptures. So please tell me how God can be both Father and son...?


Yes Jesus is a "divine" being because his existence was caused by his Father. "Divinity" however does not necessarily mean "deity". How many times have we discussed this....?

The truth is.....your son is not you.....he is a completely separate being that came from you. You existed first and created him by the union of yourself and his mother. Who is Jesus' mother? It cannot be Mary because she was the human 'vehicle' through whom God brought his pre-existent son into the material world. Jesus existed "in the beginning" "with God" before any other creation....he is the product of his Father alone, which makes him the unique "only-begotten son" that Bible says he is.
He was created by his Father.....how is that not obvious?

You could feed a herd of elephants with all the straw you're piling up. I've lost interest.

 

[Brakelite]

Why is this not correct?

Because you say so of course.

 

[Brakelite]

Believers in the Trinity prefer the Authorized Version, or King James Version, which renders Hebrews 1:8 as above.....“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

The above words are citations from Psalm 104:4 and Psalms 45:6-7. The writer, Paul, is applying the latter to the Father speaking to His Son. The Father is referring to His Son as God

 

[Brakelite]

I don’t know anything about “divine DNA” and don’t believe it has any relevance at all to Jesus.

Okay, so I'm taking a liberty with ideas and language here, I'm being a little metaphorical. But if the Son is begotten of the Father, but is not God, then what is He? Everything else in the natural universe, particularly humans, made in there image of God, begets after their own kind.

KJV Genesis 1:11-12, 21, 24-27
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Do we not also bring forth from seed, after our kind? God specifically and deliberately used the word begotten...monogenes... To describe the origin of His Son. Generated from. Brought forth. Born to. A Son well before Bethlehem, a Son sent to become human, not something else sent to become a son. A Son who willingly gave His life...a life He could give because His life was His own to do with as He wished. Unlike angels and men whose lives are not our own.

 

[Brakelite]

The Jews called God their Father. They must have realised therefore that Jesus was not claiming this in the same sense as they were claiming it else they would not have condemned Him for it. They must have understood Him to be claiming God as His Father in a very literal sense. This is why they said He was making Himself equal with God. Jesus did not say they had misunderstood His words. In personality He was not the one true God (the Father) but He was manifesting God in the flesh. It is no wonder therefore that God led the prophet Isaiah to prophecy of the coming Messiah “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

 

[Matthias]

Okay, so I'm taking a liberty with ideas and language here, I'm being a little metaphorical. But if the Son is begotten of the Father, but is not God, then what is He? Everything else in the natural universe, particularly humans, made in there image of God, begets after their own kind.

KJV Genesis 1:11-12, 21, 24-27
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Do we not also bring forth from seed, after our kind? God specifically and deliberately used the word begotten...monogenes... To describe the origin of His Son. Generated from. Brought forth. Born to. A Son well before Bethlehem, a Son sent to become human, not something else sent to become a son. A Son who willingly gave His life...a life He could give because His life was His own to do with as He wished. Unlike angels and men whose lives are not our own.

I mentioned to you in my post what he is - a miraculously begotten human person.

Conception Christology locates the origin of Christ in the womb of his mother.

In Matthew 1:18 we find the evangelist speaking about the genesis of Jesus. As a non-trinitarian, that causes my mind to flash back to Genesis 1 and the creation of the heavens and the earth. Think about the spirit of God overshadowing the surface of the waters in Genesis 1:2. What follows is God bringing into literal existence or being things which previously existed only in his foreknowledge. A miraculous creation, spoken into existence by God.

Returning to Matthew 1, I see the same God and another creation event. What I see is the beginning of the new creation in the womb of the virgin.

In Luke 1:35 we read that the angel said to the virgin “The holy spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reasonthe holy child shall be called the Son of God.”

Once again, this causes my mind to flash back to genesis - origin, creation, coming into existence/ being.

Begetting is an act of the father; conceiving is an act of the mother. When the father begets, the mother conceives, and a person who didn’t previously exist comes into existence/being. The origin (beginning) of the child is in the womb of the mother. The human population increases.

I don’t see, as you do, the Father sending Jesus to become human. I see the Father miraculously creating Jesus - who previously existed only in the foreknowledge of God - in the womb of his mother, Mary.

Genesis. The heavens and the earth was a miraculous creation. Jesus was a miraculous creation.

 

[Matthias]

“God brings forth from seed.”

That’s something I think everyone would do well to meditate on.

I don’t know what others think about it but it causes me to think of word.

God brings forth from word.

 

[Brakelite]

I mentioned to you in my post what he is - a miraculously begotten human person.

Conception Christology locates the origin of Christ in the womb of his mother.

In Matthew 1:18 we find the evangelist speaking about the genesis of Jesus. As a non-trinitarian, that causes my mind to flash back to Genesis 1 and the creation of the heavens and the earth. Think about the spirit of God overshadowing the surface of the waters in Genesis 1:2. What follows is God bringing into literal existence or being things which previously existed only in his foreknowledge. A miraculous creation, spoken into existence by God.

Returning to Matthew 1, I see the same God and another creation event. What I see is the beginning of the new creation in the womb of the virgin.

In Luke 1:35 we read that the angel said to the virgin “The holy spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reasonthe holy child shall be called the Son of God.”

Once again, this causes my mind to flash back to genesis - origin, creation, coming into existence/ being.

Begetting is an act of the father; conceiving is an act of the mother. When the father begets, the mother conceives, and a person who didn’t previously exist comes into existence/being. The origin (beginning) of the child is in the womb of the mother. The human population increases.

I don’t see, as you do, the Father sending Jesus to become human. I see the Father miraculously creating Jesus - who previously existed only in the foreknowledge of God - in the womb of his mother, Mary.

Genesis. The heavens and the earth was a miraculous creation. Jesus was a miraculous creation.

A clear explanation of your beliefs, cheers. How then do you treat such familiar scriptures such as...
KJV Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

KJV Colossians 1:13-19
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

KJV John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Matthias]

A clear explanation of your beliefs, cheers. How then do you treat such familiar scriptures such as...
KJV Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

KJV Colossians 1:13-19
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

KJV John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The passage in Hebrews makes the point for me that God did not speak by Jesus in the past; God spoke by the prophets in the past, later by Jesus, after he was begotten / brought into being.

The passage in Colossians makes the point for me that “in him” - not “by him,” as the translation you quoted renders v. 16 - God created all things - as some trinitarian commentaries acknowledge, “with him [Jesus]” in mind.

For the passage in John I refer you to Tyndale’s Translation, the Geneva Bible and others which are rendered similarly - “All things were made by it; and without it was not anything made that was made.”

The word - “it” - until the word is made flesh. The incarnation of the word, I see, is the equivalent or parallel in John of the conception narrative in Matthew and Luke.