Who is Jesus Christ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I'm confused...I understand that it says: today I have begotten you. But this doesn't negate that John says the Son existed with God from the beginning and that He WAS God. Born in bodily form at a point in time, yes, but the poster wasn't giving an opinion to say Christ existed from the beginning with God. You can actually show from the bible what you've said he cannot show. And John specifically echoes Genesis in the way he chose to write the beginning of his book, and he also tries to underscore that Jesus is the light first spoken of in Genesis.

This is how I read it. As always, there may be some different ideas on what John was trying to convey...

What is so hard to understand, Jesus is the Word of God come in the flesh, The word of God has always existed with God so He did not lie when He said, " Before Abraham was I am", yet the man Christ only came into being when Mary received the Word and it created life, in the Man Jesus, Gods word in an earthly body, Just as we have spirit in an earthly body, a vessel to contain.
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,355
10,069
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you do not think Jesus existed before He was born as a human? But how then did the Baptist say Jesus existed before He himself did when we know he was born first?

stunnedbygrace: (John 1:15) John did not say/mean that Jesus pre-existed or existed physically before him. It would add no information or add to the conversation for the reader if that all John was trying to say. John was saying that even though he was the first to announce the gospel as a man of God no less, Jesus was more important and of higher statue that me, as the light and the Son of God. Thus, Jesus comes before John and all men. He was the one to look at, not John anymore, since the light was present as Jesus to save his people...

...and I believe Jesus did not pre-exist before his birth when he was born or came from God.

APAK
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And I'm aware of how mindboggling it gets to try to conceive of God and Jesus as one as Jesus stated. It's trippy for sure!

And think too, about how the Baptist could say Jesus existed before him when the Baptist was born first!
Maybe we can answer this matter for you.
the Spirit is not the FLESH, it only dwelleth in it. Jesus is the "equal "SHARE" of HIMSELF/Spirit in flesh. he's "THE", the definite article of himself, as G243 "Another" states, or as the Hebrew H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym on his own self states.

let me put it to you this way, as an example, only as an example only. the First man Adam is an "Another" of his own self in the woman Eve. meaning the "Sharing" of one ownself. for Eve the Woman came out from the First man. she, Eve, is the Share of the First Adam, Flesh of my Flesh and Bone of my bone. just like the man and the woman share flesh and bone that is the same, the Spirit did the same of hinself, as G243 allos states.

the woman can out of, or from the first Man. this is why the KJV can translate Adam as "Another".
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

Eve is the "Another" of the First Adam, but they are, G2087 heteros to each other in spirit, but are G243 allos in flesh and bone. whereas Jesus is "Another" of his OWNSELF/the Spirit, meaning the Spirit/Father, and "shared " spirit/Son is G243 Allos "WITH" each other in nature (per Phil 2:6). they are the SAME "SORT" in Spirit.

understand G2087 heteros is a "qualitative difference", with a different sort. whereas G243 Allos is a "numerical difference" but of the same sort. supportive scripture,
Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

"Mine" and "ME" is the SAME person. it was the same person who came, but in another "form". another example of this is found in, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

"Your" God?. what did the apostle say,
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

HOLD IT, "ONE GOD?" ........ the Father. if this is true, and it is, for the scripture cannot be broken, then in Isaiah 35:4 it is the Father who came then. read Isaiah 35:4 again. but do not the NT scripture say the Father sent the son? what did the Lord Jesus say?, let's see.
John 16:27 "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

did you notice how the Lord Jesus used "God in verse 28 that he "CAME OUT" from and "Father" in verse 29 that he "CAME FORTH" from. WHAT DO THIS TELLS US? he is the Father/Spirit, that came in FLESH, hence the title Son. God.... the Father is the Son "WITH" Flesh, and the reverse is the same. the Son is the Father "WITHOUT" flesh.

now go back to our example of the ADAM/MAN is not the Woman an ADAM/MAN also? lets see,
Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". BOTH ARE CALLED ADAM.

ok the Lord Jesus came out from God, and Came forth from the Father. this is not a separate person, but the same person, ONLY "SHARED" in FLESH.

so ONE "God" is the one "Lord" in flesh.

nope that helped.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Apr 30, 2018
16,877
25,609
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
stunnedbygrace: (John 1:15) John did not say/mean that Jesus pre-existed or existed physically before him. It would add no information or add to the conversation for the reader if that all John was trying to say. John was saying that even though he was the first to announce the gospel as a man of God no less, Jesus was more important and of higher statue that me, as the light and the Son of God. Thus, Jesus comes before John and all men. He was the one to look at, not John anymore, since the light was present as Jesus to save his people...

...and I believe Jesus did not pre-exist before his birth when he was born or came from God.

APAK


Welcome back @APAK ! Have not seen you around for a bit. Merry Christmas! ♥
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes He pre-existed and was there before creation.

I agree! But then why did you say to the person who posted that Jesus existed with God from before the world, that he was only giving his opinion...? Did I miss something?
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
stunnedbygrace: (John 1:15) John did not say/mean that Jesus pre-existed or existed physically before him. It would add no information or add to the conversation for the reader if that all John was trying to say. John was saying that even though he was the first to announce the gospel as a man of God no less, Jesus was more important and of higher statue that me, as the light and the Son of God. Thus, Jesus comes before John and all men. He was the one to look at, not John anymore, since the light was present as Jesus to save his people...

...and I believe Jesus did not pre-exist before his birth when he was born or came from God.

APAK
This is not possible if, as John says, that everything was created through Him. If He was non-existent until He was born human, how was everything we see created through Him?
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is not possible if, as John says, that everything was created through Him. If He was non-existent until He was born human, how was everything we see created through Him?

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The image of God, not God.

Firstborn over all creation, not creator of all of creation.

Through him and for him does not mean by him.

Jesus Christ is the name of the flesh the second person of the Trinity took on at the incarnation, not before.

Jesus Christ is not God, he is a human, so he could live the life, died the death and be resurrected for our salvation. God could not do any of it.

You during what so many others do by claiming Jesus is the son of God means he is eternal God.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
stunnedbygrace: (John 1:15) John did not say/mean that Jesus pre-existed or existed physically before him. It would add no information or add to the conversation for the reader if that all John was trying to say. John was saying that even though he was the first to announce the gospel as a man of God no less, Jesus was more important and of higher statue that me, as the light and the Son of God. Thus, Jesus comes before John and all men. He was the one to look at, not John anymore, since the light was present as Jesus to save his people...

...and I believe Jesus did not pre-exist before his birth when he was born or came from God.

APAK
Not correct.

We discussed this before. You are misusing the word Word.

The word is the logos one time the whole Bible and is only used one time in the whole Bible.

The Meaning of 'Logos' in the Prologue of John's Gospel

Jesus, the incarnate flesh and blood who died on the cross and resurrected is not the second person of the Trinity. God cannot die. God is not flesh.

Micah 5:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clansa]">[a] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

His origins we decided from ancient times, but it does not say his flesh existed. From ancient times

Nor does it say the name of God is Jesus.

Claiming such says God died on the cross. That God paid the sin price when the Bible clearly says only a man and pay the sin price.

Jesus is the second Adam, meaning he was created by God and his body fully human.
I do not see that this poster is misusing the word Word. And if he is, it would be because the disciple Jesus loved misused it first. he said, the word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. The word is described as "Him." And " He. "

the disciple was not being obscure with how he begins his book. " In the beginning, " that's how he starts it. He is talking about Jesus as being the Word, the Lamb, the Light first spoken of in Genesis, and the one who everything we see was created through.

In no obscure terms, the disciple says Jesus was in the beginning with God and that He WAS God.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The image of God, not God.

Firstborn over all creation, not creator of all of creation.

Through him and for him does not mean by him.

Jesus Christ is the name of the flesh the second person of the Trinity took on at the incarnation, not before.

Jesus Christ is not God, he is a human, so he could live the life, died the death and be resurrected for our salvation. God could not do any of it.

You during what so many others do by claiming Jesus is the son of God means he is eternal God.
I can understand the thought of Him being the image of God, because God is Spirit, and we don't see spirit with our human eyes. So God made Him flesh.

What I can't understand (and vociferously disagree with) is to say Jesus did not exist before His physical birth. John says He was in the beginning with God and that, in fact, He WAS God. And Jesus says of Himself that He and the Father are one.

He came into the very world He created.
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not see that this poster is misusing the word Word. And if he is, it would be because the disciple Jesus loved misused it first. he said, the word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. The word is described as "Him." And " He. "

the disciple was not being obscure with how he begins his book. " In the beginning, " that's how he starts it. He is talking about Jesus as being the Word, the Lamb, the Light first spoken of in Genesis, and the one who everything we see was created through.

In no obscure terms, the disciple says Jesus was in the beginning with God and that He WAS God.

I posted the illness before. The Word in John one is not the same as that used for word in the rest of the Bible. They have very different meanings,

Word is Logos, the reason for everything, the word word is written or spoken words that we use every day.
I can understand the thought of Him being the image of God, because God is Spirit, and we don't see spirit with our human eyes. So God made Him flesh.

What I can't understand (and vociferously disagree with) is to say Jesus did not exist before His physical birth. John says He was in the beginning with God and that, in fact, He WAS God. And Jesus says of Himself that He and the Father are one.

He came into the very world He created.

John said the Word, not Jesus, was with God and was God.

He said the Word became flesh, not was flesh.

You cannot become if you already are.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus also said that He existed before Abraham ever was. Was He insane, or was He telling the truth??
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I posted the illness before. The Word in John one is not the same as that used for word in the rest of the Bible. They have very different meanings,

Word is Logos, the reason for everything, the word word is written or spoken words that we use every day.


John said the Word, not Jesus, was with God and was God.

He said the Word became flesh, not was flesh.

You cannot become if you already are.

Yes, he said the word was with God in the beginning, and that the word WAS God, and that that the word became flesh.

And God says about Jesus: your throne, oh God, will last forever. When God is referring to the Son, why does God call the Son God?
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No he did not. His spirit, which is God, existed before Abraham, not his flesh, which is Jesus.

Review what I said two post above.

Your claims create contradictions.

Psh! Let me ask you this: before Jesus made His dwelling with us, was He God? Did He speak truthfully when He said: before Abraham was, I Am?
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They did not kill Jesus because they misunderstood wh o He was claiming to be. They killed Him because they DID understand who He was claiming to be!
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, he said the word was with God in the beginning, and that the word WAS God, and that that the word became flesh.

And God says about Jesus: your throne, oh God, will last forever. When God is referring to the Son, why does God call the Son God?

Because in the New Jerusalem Christ sits down on the throne of God with the father not until.

Notice it says will last, not has lasted and will continue to last?
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And when they picked up stones to kill Him, He asked why and they said: because you are a man claiming to be God. Why would He not have said: oh, I see, you misunderstood what I said, I did not say I am God?
Because in the New Jerusalem Christ sits down on the throne of God with the father not until.

Notice it says will last, not has lasted and will continue to last?
Missing my point. Why does God call the Son God?