Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Well, I guess the question is was Nebuchadnezzar a believer or not. I have heard some people who argue he was a believer.
Either way a one world government was in place at that time.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus doesn't agree with your opinion @Timtofly ..
Jesus said in John 14:30, just the opposite.
Satan is the god of THIS world.
Look at this world.... Its one big sewer of lust and evil.
God is not doing that.. He's not causing it.
Satan is going to show up soon enough.
Be sure not to be here, when He does, reader, as if you are here in the Trib, then that is because you are not saved when it starts.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This 42 months only happens after the Second Coming. It is not a lead up to the Second Coming moment. There is no world dictator prior to the Second Coming. That is the imagination of the left behind series, not found in Scripture. Satan is only bound in the pit during the Day of the Lord, not any other time in history.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
But never Satan's one world government. That is the point.
Satan always had influence. But was never actually put in charge of any human government.
That is the point of the temptation of Jesus. Satan was not giving Jesus something Satan had. Satan was offering his help to establish Jesus as the King of the World. Like Satan has offered every human help to get there. The issue is not letting Satan help you, or you will always be in debt and service to Satan. The worship of Satan is the price to pay for services rendered. Not that Satan had any authority from God, but only what humans gave up to Satan.
Jesus knew it was not time to be King, but to be the Christ on the Cross.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you as a human give Satan that authority, sure. It is only humans that cause Satan to have any authority.
I don’t think anyone has the view that Satan is going to physically rule on earth, physically sitting on some throne.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Satan is “in charge” of the minds of those who don’t believe. So in that sense he rules spiritually. It boils down to whether you think Nebuchadnezzar was a believer or not as to whether Satan had a one world government at that time.
Are you arguing that Nebuchadnezzar was a believer?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Let me show you what to believe about unbelievers, vs... the Born again.
Jesus said...>"YOU are of YOUR FATHER... THE DEVIL.. and the LUSTS of your FATHER , you shall do"
So...Who has the "DEVIL as their Spiritual Father"?
A.) That is every unbeliever, never born again, who is breathing or died.
So, how do you end that? How do you stop the DEVIL from being your "father"? Spiritually?
Jesus said...."You must be born again"... = and why is that?
Its because when you are born again, you are born again by God, and HE becomes your Spiritual Father.
This is why the CHRISTIAN goes to HEAVEN.. as God is their FATHER and He is in Heaven.
The unbelievers , never born again, go to HELL, as "Hell was created for the DEVIL and HIS Angels".. so, the children of the devil, who are all the Christ Rejectors = go to HELL, as that is the place that is created for THEIR Father.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Spiritual coming?! You do not make any sense. Or you do not understand what God talked about.
2Th 2:9-10
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Satan's principle weapon is that of DECEPTION. Here we see God clearly telling us that this SPIRIT Satan which was already at work in the world even then, would be revealed in the future, and that the iniquity or lawlessness was being restrained, that the man of sin (man of lawlessness) could not rule in God's Temple at that time. But in the future this iniquity that was restrained would be loosed and only THEN would that iniquity be unrestrained, and Satan revealed. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and lying signs and wonders. Man with the spirit of Satan is the man of lawlessness.
The problem is that you are reading into Scripture thinking God is talking about ONE MAN, when God is talking about EVERY INDIVIDUAL who is coming with the spirit of Satan as man of sin. Not one but many. Just as God sees EVERY BELIEVER as the man of God and He sees EVERY unsaved professed Christian as man of sin. There will not be going to be one man sit (ruling) in a physical temple here. Rather there will be many false prophets and christs sit (ruling) in the Church (Holy Spirit) all over the world. Not in Jerusalem only. Selah!
The coming or parousia in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 was an arrival just as Jesus has a coming or parousia.
Don’t we have two choices on how the parousia happens? Either spiritually or physically?
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the ownerwho alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visitof a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 5,991
- 1,227
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Daniel did not rule over the entire world.
Satan is the ruler of the world according to Christ.
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 5,991
- 1,227
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
So the two witnesses and the 144k with God's own seal in their foreheads are not saved when the GT starts? lol
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
They obviously don't see that, because of some kind of deception. It is clearly stated that the beast: Revelation 17:8 is Satan.
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.... And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
John is still describing the dragon with the 7 heads as the historical relationship between human government since Babylon in Daniel 2.
When it states Satan's time is short it is referring to the 8th Kingdom. Revelation 12:12-13
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth."
This is the third woe attached to the 7th Trumpet like the other two woes attached to the 5th and 6th Trumpets. The woe is the 42 months of AoD. Satan is the 7th and primary head of the dragon, but the last One World empire as the 8th Kingdom announced in Revelation 17. Those 42 months are Satan's short time, unless he gets no time at all. He could have only a few days, and when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, bound in the pit for a thousand years, no 42 months of AoD at all.
That is the connection between Revelation 13 and 17. In one chapter the beast is said to be of humanity. In the other chapter the relationship over time between Jerusalem and this beast of human government. But who is the last and 8th King as one of the dragon's heads, other than Satan? Satan was not the body, but one of the heads as well. The body of the dragon, beast, or the scarlet beast has always been humanity.
Eve typified the body by allowing herself to be deceived by Satan and giving him authority. Even her own offspring would be at enmity with the offspring who would be redeemed, and humanity pitted against each other as the lost and the redeemed. All God's people have been commanded to come out of and leave the beast/dragon behind as the representation of Babylon and the world.
Twice in Revelation John clarified who the beast was and context identifies the term beast, as beast is also used to point out a future antichrist as well. But Satan is not the Antichrist, nor is the AC even human. Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 20:2-3
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more."
We can see that since Eve, Satan has deceived the whole world, up until the end. Then bound for a thousand years, while no one is deceieved at all. For 6,000 years the world was in deception. Now for the last thousand years, no one is in deception at all.
So we know that Satan is directly identified as the dragon and thus always one of the heads. So only 6 heads can be associated with human government starting with Babylon. Medes and Persians were the 2nd head. Greece the third. Rome the 4th. The ten toes are the 5th head. And all five were fallen at the time of the Reformation when the church put paced and was spread throughout the world, thus no single nation was a world empire. The 6th head is mortally wounded. But the 7th head is Satan, and will be the 8th king over the 8th Kingdom, which is the 42 months of AoD. So 17 is also describing the time given as described in Revelation 13. Revelation 17 and 18 is the 42 months of AoD. Satan is seated in Jerusalem on Jesus' throne, and in the Temple of God for those 42 months. Satan is building up this area, not destroying Jerusalem. Satan is defending Jerusalem, not attacking Jerusalem. The 10 horns are ridding Jerusalem of any religion, not tearing Jerusalem apart. The whore is the symbolic relationship Jerusalem had with all religions including Christianity. It is that relationship that is being burned to the ground, not the physical city itself. That is why the earthquake mentioned twice, once in Revelation 11 and then in 16 is the destruction of what Satan has built up in 42 months, not the restoration Jesus did at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal.
The work Jesus did can never be destroyed, but those 42 months are about abominations that Satan is adding to the foundation of Jesus Christ about the physical Jerusalem. That is why in Matthew 24, Jesus tells any one with a brain to flee the area when Satan becomes the 8th king, and have nothing to do with what goes on during those 42 months.
The point is not about Nebuchadnezzar. The point is that Satan never had total control until the 7th Trumpet sounds. I think Daniel 4 explains the redemption process of Nebuchadnezzar. As the first head, he did not give into Satan's demands after that point, and his kingdom was passed on to his son instead. When his son listened to Satan, God took the empire away and gave it to the Medes and Persians. The first empire was the shortest in duration. It was the first head "fallen", or in other words left in the sands of time.
The point is that one cannot say John gives 3 different 7 headed dragon's or beasts. The 7 heads represent humanity from the time of Daniel until the Second Coming as described from God's perspective (chapter 12), man's perspective (chapter 13), and then from Satan's perspective (chapter 17).
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Because being spiritually "of Satan" does not imply one has to give Satan authority as a human, not physically born of Satan. There is a choice. One's will does not come from Satan. One's spiritual disposition comes from Satan.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The "adamic nature" is the sin nature in every human being.
This nature is the "old man of sin" that is "crucified with Christ" regarding the BORN AGAIN, "new Creation" "In Christ".
So, unbelievers are the "Adamic Nature" not redeemed, not born again.. and that is the fallen nature that is the Sin Nature..
That is the Devil's nature..
This is why Jesus describes all unbelievers as "You are of YOUR FATHER, the DEVIL, and the LUSTS of your Father you will/shall DO".
The Born again, have a Divine imputation, and that is our born again Spirit, that is now become "One with God" who is Now become the FATHER of ALL the Born again.
Its much as in the time of Christ, no matter what He did or said the Pharisees and others would not believe, but there were always the faithful few..
Just look at the world being brought under one rule, we see it with mandates, declarations from the WHO, the UN and the G8, as they form the New World Order, its rising up..
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except "rising up" is not found in Scripture as brought on by human means. When this empire of Satan starts, it is directly allowed by God.
The problem is that your view has humans initiating and dictating God's timetable.
Last edited:
Well what would you suggest 'Rise up', 'Given life' 'Come up'. It is not 'directly alllowed by God', it is what He knew would happen as He knows all, and not stopped.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Because Satan's 8th empire, rises up, after Jesus is declared King of the 7th empire at the 7th Trumpet. If there is an 8th empire, it happens 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet sounds. So the 7th Kingdom will only last 3.5 days, and then God will allow Satan his 8th Kingdom slot.
It is not a surprise to God. It is God deciding if Satan gets this 8th kingdom or not. If Satan does not get to sit on the throne, in the temple in Jerusalem, there will never be an AoD nor 42 months in which humans will be beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and the Word of God. No one will receive the mark. No one will still be alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.
So this is not some over time "rising up" that takes every one by surprise, even God. This 42 months is not of human effort, is my point.
People have, in modern times, since the Reformation viewed the Second Coming as the ultimate end of everything about this creation, because post Millennial thought pervaded the church. The Second Coming is not in Revelation 19. Revelation 19 is just one of two outcomes per the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant in Daniel 9:27.
The other outcome of the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant is that there is no 42 months given to Satan, and when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the Day of the Lord will begin, with Satan bound in the pit for a thousand years, and not sitting on a throne for 42 months. So in the time of the Reformational thought, Satan was already in the pit, and any authority given to him was after the Day of the Lord. The Second Coming would be the ultimate end. But the reformers were just as wrong as the Catholics, and that preterism or futurism started then, is not even relevant.
The 6 seals had not been opened at the point of the Reformation, so all of Revelation including the 6 Seals were still future. The church already saw that as fulfilled, as the main driving force of the Reformation was that the popes were the antichrist, and Revelation was already being fulfilled. All Preterist thought did was shift the church's error to those living in the first century. All futurism did was take the focus off of the present Reformation situation. But all was still in the future, so being a futurist was still the only correct view of Revelation because both the Reformers and the Catholics were wrong. Both sides were partial preterist already. They did what people do today and relate their world with the words in the book of Revelation. Every generation has done that, no? Even if someone was told by God that the Seals were currently being opened, no one would believe them, because there are literally 2 millennia of people who thought that.
Similar threads
