Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

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Phoneman777

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blessedhope said:
The R>is the Ghost, Its very intro about the ghost because we live in the day of grace and the Ghost. In the old tes > they did not live in the R. And after the rapturey they will be like in the old tes . No Grace!Enjoy
Friend, there is not one single document in existence that shows that the early church - who would be in the best position to tell us just what Paul was talking about in reference to the Restrainer because of their close proximity to the time of Paul and what he revealed to the Thessalonians regarding the Restrainer's identity - believed that the Restrainer was "the Ghost", or "the Holy Ghost" or "the Holy Ghost filled church" or an "Agent of Holiness", etc. It's true, there's absolutely nothing to indicate this.

These ideas are relatively new: about 150 years or so.

The early church believed that the Restrainer which was preventing the rise of Antichrist was THE ROMAN EMPIRE, which upon its fall would pave the way for the rise of the Antichrist. Tradition tells us that though the church was much persecuted by that Empire, the Christians actually PRAYED for its preservation, because of the far sinister and deadly enemy of Christ which they knew would arise after Rome fell. What you have accepted is a Jesuit prophetic interpretation and lest we argue that the Jesuits are to be trusted for sound eschatological exegesis, let us not forget that the Catholic church has failed to gain a proper position on anything regarding Biblical doctrine, the most elementary of which is "salvation by grace through faith alone".
 

Phoneman777

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veteran said:
If one does not pay attention to the Old Testament prophets they will have a difficult time getting what Apostle Paul meant with the one who restrains in 2 Thess.2.

First thing to remember is that Daniel is being given a vision here by an angel, and this view involves a look into heavenly order of things affecting earthly events...

Dan 10:8-14
8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14
Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
(KJV)


The angel says the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood him for 21 days? Can a flesh prince withstand an angel? No, of course not. This means that "prince of the kingdom of Persia" is a heavenly order title for one of God's enemies in the heavenly that has to do with the earthly kingdom of Persia, i.e., one of Satan's angels, or Satan himself.

Dan 10:19-21
19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
20
Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)


The angel then tells Daniel when he returns he will fight with the prince of Persia (heavenly prince of Persia, not flesh princes). Then the prince of Grecia will come. Then in Dan.10:21 we have the answer to the one who withholds. It's the Archangel Michael.

Exactly who is Michael holding there in the heavenly? Most likely Satan.

II Th 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And
then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)


That title of "that Wicked" the KJV translators made as a proper name for a certain individual. So they knew it was not merely about some concept like evil, but an actual entity that will be on the earth when our Lord Jesus comes to destroy him.

Who might that then be?

Who again was the Archangel Michael withholding in the heavenly back at Daniel 10 with the heavenly "prince of Persia" title? And if the first angel that spoke to Daniel in Dan.10 said that prince of Persia withstood him for 21 days until the Archangel Michael came to help him, what kind of heavenly power does that point to with that "he"? Who does it point to?

The answer is here...

Rev 12:7-12
7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)
The Roman Empire, according to what every single church father wrote on the subject. However, although their close proximity to the time of Paul and what he told the Thessalonians leaves them as the only trustworthy source for knowledge regarding this issue, this fact seems to be wholly ignored and dismissed as irrelevant, probably due to the Cognitive Dissonance that erupts when one is confronted with the facts that totally overthrow the Jesuit Futurism idea of a "one man Antichrist which will arise at the end of time during the last seven years of tribulation".
 

michaelvpardo

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blessedhope said:
The R>is the Ghost, Its very intro about the ghost because we live in the day of grace and the Ghost. In the old tes > they did not live in the R. And after the rapturey they will be like in the old tes . No Grace!Enjoy
There is no such thing as ghosts. If you're talking about the Holy Spirit which was mistakenly translated as Holy Ghost in some of the early translations of scripture, check the original language with a concordance and maybe you'll loose some of that confusion.
 

michaelvpardo

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In2joy said:
The Church is that which is restraining total lawlessness
In what way does the church restrain lawlessness anywhere but within the church? I think that Law restrains lawlessness. If this weren't the case, why would the antichrist try to change law?
 

Phoneman777

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Michael V Pardo said:
In what way does the church restrain lawlessness anywhere but within the church? I think that Law restrains lawlessness. If this weren't the case, why would the antichrist try to change law?
Amazing how theologians of today claim that the "holy spirit filled church" or some other agent of holiness is the Restrainer, although those who lived closest to Paul's day, the Early Church Fathers, didn't give even one intimation that they believed Paul was speaking of such things - but that they believed he was referring to the Roman Empire. It's' what happens when you study the Bible to confirm "truth" already accepted - in this case that "truth" being Jesuit Futurism - rather than simply allowing one's self to be lead into truth by God. The Reformers believed the Papacy is the Antichrist, which could not arise until the "Restrainer" Roman Empire first fell out of the way, and makes perfect sense for why Paul spoke of it in person to them, but refused to speak of the fall of it in letter to the Thess., fearing it would fall into the wrong hands.
 

ATP

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The restrainer is Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation.

The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to...

1. stand still, stop, cease moving, of moon Joshua 10:13 (J E; "" וַיִּדֹּם), sun Joshua 10:13, both, Habakkuk 3:11; of person 1 Samuel 9:27 (opposed to עָבַר), 2 Samuel 2:28 (opposed to רָדַף), עִמְדוּ עֲמֹ֫דוּ Nahum 2:9 +; stop flowing (of oil) 2 Kings 4:6; remain standing, with תַּחְתֵּינוּ Judges 7:21; 1 Samuel 14:9 etc.; of eruption in skin = remain unchanged Leviticus 13:23,28; so (without ׳ת) Leviticus 13:5,37 (all P).
2. be inactive 2 Chronicles 20:17 (opposed to לְהִלָּחֵם, + הִתְיַצְּבוּ).
3. stop, cease doing a thing 2 Kings 13:18; with מִן Genesis 29:35; Genesis 30:9 (both J), Joel 1:15.
4. tarry, delay Genesis 45:9 (E), Joshua 10:19 (J E; opposed to רָדַף), 1 Samuel 20:38 (opposed to מְהֵרָה, חוּשָׁה), +.
5. stand afar מֵרָחוֺק Exodus 20:18,21 (E), Isaiah 59:14; Psalm 38:12, ׳בְּר Psalm 10:1; ׳מִנֶּגֶד מֵר 2 Kings 2:7; stand aloof, מִנֶֹּגֶד Obadiah 11; Psalm 38:12.
6. stand (silent) Job 32:16.
7. grow flat, insipid (Gie), taste of wine Jeremiah 48:11 (figurative of Moab), or remain unchanged (so most, in that case compare 3b). — עָמְדִי Daniel 11:1b is corrupt, read probably עָמַדְתִּי, or עָמַד (מִיכָאֵל subject), join then to Daniel 10:21 and strike out Daniel 11:1a; so Bev Behrm MartiKau.

Why does Michael stop moving? So God can send them a strong delusion 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Rev 12:6-12 NIV The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
 

ATP

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I do recommend the book, Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal..

prewra01.JPG


1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV.
2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
I do recommend the book, Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal..

prewra01.JPG

1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV.
2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.
Your 70th week graphic failed to include the "cut off" of the Messiah. How do we know it happened during the 70th week? Because Daniel says that there would be an initial 7 weeks to pass of rebuilding the street and walls and then an additional 62 weeks of the next verse: "after 62 weeks, Messiah shall be cut off but not for Himself", which means He was crucified during the 70th week, which immediately comes after the 7 and 62 weeks.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
I do recommend the book, Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal..

prewra01.JPG


1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV.
2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.
If Jesuit Futurism, which more or less teaches Michael the Archangel was the Restrainer, is true, surely Paul would not have been so secretive and reluctant to announce this encouraging news to the suffering early church in his letter, right?

"Hey Thessalonians, you might be going through it, but be of good cheer because Michael has his celestial boot on the neck of the Antichrist as we speak!!!"

No, Paul essentially said, "**Pssst....hey Thessalonians, remember when I was with you and revealed the identity of the Restrainer to you? Yeah, you remember!**"

The reason why he was so secretive was because not one ECF believed Paul spoke of Michael, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit filled church, or any other popular "Left Behind" scenario as the Restrainer, but their writings indicate they believed Paul told the early church that the Restrainer was the ROMAN STATE and that is why Paul didn't openly say, "Hey Thessalonians, when the ROMAN STATE is out of the way, the Antichrist will arise." People caught speaking about the fall of an empire were swiftly dispatched with extreme prejudice. When the Roman Empire fell, the Papal Antichrist "man of sin" sprang up right in it's place just as prophecy predicted way back in the 6th century - a school of thought known as "Historicism" which is not to be confused with the other Jesuit idea which claims the A/C arose in the first century and is known as Jesuit Preterism.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Your 70th week graphic failed to include the "cut off" of the Messiah. How do we know it happened during the 70th week? Because Daniel says that there would be an initial 7 weeks to pass of rebuilding the street and walls and then an additional 62 weeks of the next verse: "after 62 weeks, Messiah shall be cut off but not for Himself",
Well, Jesus died 2000 years ago. The last 7 years is future.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Well, Jesus died 2000 years ago. The last 7 years is future.
How can the last seven be future if Jesus died DURING the last seven?
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
How can the last seven be future if Jesus died DURING the last seven?
No, the crucifixion concludes the 62nd week, 434 years ends with crucifixion. Dan 9:27 is future. There is a gap.

The end times speak of the Antichrist signing peace treaty and performing abomination of desolation, similar to Dan 9:27.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
No, the crucifixion concludes the 62nd week, 434 years ends with crucifixion. Dan 9:27 is future. There is a gap.

The end times speak of the Antichrist signing peace treaty and performing abomination of desolation, similar to Dan 9:2
ATP, "Messiah" means "Anointed One". Jesus was anointed by the Holy Ghost at His baptism and then commenced His Earthly ministry according to Acts 10:38 KJV.

How can the crucifixion of Jesus mark the end of 62 weeks if the prophecy clearly says that the "Anointed Prince" which received that anointing at His baptism did not even receive this anointing until after 69 weeks?
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
How can the crucifixion of Jesus mark the end of 62 weeks if the prophecy clearly says that the "Anointed Prince" which received that anointing at His baptism did not even receive this anointing until after 69 weeks?
The anointed prince (Jesus) received baptism after the 69 weeks. Where are you reading this?
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
No, the crucifixion concludes the 62nd week, 434 years ends with crucifixion. Dan 9:27 is future. There is a gap.

The end times speak of the Antichrist signing peace treaty and performing abomination of desolation, similar to Dan 9:27.
ATP, Satan or his agents never make covenants with God's people and certainly not the covenant of the 70 weeks. (Job 41:4 KJV)

Jesus Christ was the "messenger of the Covenant" (Malachi 3:1 KJV)
Jesus Christ said "this is My blood of the New Covenant" shed for "many" - "Messiah the Prince" confirms the covenant with "many". (Matthew 26:28 KJV)
Jesus Christ came to "confirm the promises", the chief promise being God's New Covenant of Grace (Romans 15:8 KJV)
Jesus Christ confirmed the Covenant of salvation for 7 years, first in Person for 3 1/2 and then "through them that heard Him" for another 3 1/2.(Hebrews 2:3 KJV)

Starting to get the picture? Jesus Christ, not Antichrist, confirmed the Covenant. You are following Jesuit Futurism which claims prophecy is not Christ-centered, but Antichrist-centered.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
The anointed prince (Jesus) received baptism after the 69 weeks. Where are you reading this?
Yes, Jesus was anointed after the 69 weeks. The prophecy says "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be 69 weeks". Messiah means "anointed One" and Jesus was anointed by the Holy Ghost at His baptism and left the carpenter shop and went forth as the Messiah for 3 1/2 years until His death. Do you agree?
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, Satan or his agents never make covenants with God's people and certainly not the covenant of the 70 weeks. (Job 41:4 KJV)

Jesus Christ was the "messenger of the Covenant" (Malachi 3:1-3 KJV)
Jesus Christ said the cup contained His blood of the New Covenant shed for "many" - the same "many" He confirmed the Covenant with in Daniel 9.
Jesus Christ came to "confirm the promises", the chief promise was God's New Covenant of Grace (Romans 15:8 KJV)
Jesus Christ confirmed the Covenant of salvation for 7 years, first in Person for 3 1/2 and then "through them that heard Him" for another 3 1/2.(Hebrews 2:3 KJV)

Starting to get the picture? Jesus Christ, not Antichrist, confirms the Covenant.
You are following Jesuit Futurism which claims prophecy is not Christ-centered, but Antichrist-centered.
contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

Peace Treaty

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Isa 28:15 NIV You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death (Rev 6:8 NIV), with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place."

Isa 28:18 NIV Your covenant with death will be annulled (Rev 6:8 NIV); your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it.

Isa 57:8-9 NIV Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love (Rev 6:8 NIV), and you looked with lust on their naked bodies. 9You went to Moleka with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the very realm of the dead!

Rev 6:2 NIV I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev 6:8 NIV I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

The Abomination of Desolation

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Phoneman777 said:
Yes, Jesus was anointed after the 69 weeks. The prophecy says "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be 69 weeks". Messiah means "anointed One" and Jesus was anointed by the Holy Ghost at His baptism and left the carpenter shop and went forth as the Messiah for 3 1/2 years until His death. Do you agree?
I don't remember the number 69 being in Dan 9:24-27. Where do you see this? 483-490 years is future. 49+434 = 483.

Dan 9:25-26 NIV “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens (49 + 434).’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens (483 years),’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

Peace Treaty

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Isa 28:15 NIV You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death (Rev 6:8 NIV), with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place."

Isa 28:18 NIV Your covenant with death will be annulled (Rev 6:8 NIV); your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it.

Isa 57:8-9 NIV Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love (Rev 6:8 NIV), and you looked with lust on their naked bodies. 9You went to Moleka with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the very realm of the dead!

Rev 6:2 NIV I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev 6:8 NIV I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

The Abomination of Desolation

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


I don't remember the number 69 being in Dan 9:24-27. Where do you see this? 483-490 years is future. 49+434 = 483.

Dan 9:25-26 NIV “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens (49 + 434).’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens (483 years),’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
ATP, all those passages you posted have nothing to do with covenants between Satan and those surrendered in humble obedience to God, which is what you claim happens in Daniel 9 between the Antichrist and God's people.

ATP, I'm going to post the verse that says Messiah the Prince does not come any sooner than 69 weeks:

"Know and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, threescore, and two weeks."

OK, do you now see it? It is seven weeks, threescore, and two weeks from the beginning of the prophecy until Jesus is anointed and begins His ministry. Therefore, you cannot claim that His crucifixion was at the expiration of the first 62 weeks because He doesn't even show up on the scene as Messiah until the end of the 69th week/beginning of the 70th week. Am I still unclear?

I would love to study this issue with you via telephone conversation. If you are an AT&T mobile phone subscriber like me, the call would not use up any minutes.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, all those passages you posted have nothing to do with covenants between Satan and those surrendered in humble obedience to God, which is what you claim happens in Daniel 9 between the Antichrist and God's people.
I would disagree. You said the Antichrist doesn't make covenants, but we clearly see the Antichrist spirit making "covenants of death".

Phoneman777 said:
ATP, I'm going to post the verse that says Messiah the Prince does not come any sooner than 69 weeks:

"Know and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, threescore, and two weeks."
How is that possible when Jesus dies at the 483rd year.
A week is 7 years bro. 7x7 = 49, and 62x7 = 434. 49 + 434 = 483.
The first 483 years of this prophecy has already come to pass.

Phoneman777 said:
OK, do you now see it? It is seven weeks, threescore, and two weeks from the beginning of the prophecy until Jesus is anointed and begins His ministry. Therefore, you cannot claim that His crucifixion was at the expiration of the first 62 weeks because He doesn't even show up on the scene as Messiah until the end of the 69th week/beginning of the 70th week. Am I still unclear?

I would love to study this issue with you via telephone conversation. If you are an AT&T mobile phone subscriber like me, the call would not use up any minutes.
You need to learn how to count bro. Jesus dies at the 483rd year.

Dan 9:25-26 NIV “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens (49 + 434).’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens (483 years),’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.