Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[Marcus O'Reillius]

• After 3 1/2 years into the 70th Week came the crucifixion.

Jesus was not the abomination. Nor was the Cross. The Cross was God's Plan for Redemption. When we're sick and dying, we want warm compresses and chicken soup. - God used a rugged cross and iron nails to heal our deadly sins.

Jesus never "prevailed" by force a limited, short-timed covenant, but one that remains in affect until the "last call" of the three Angels of Revelation and we are gathered up!

What you are espousing is Preterism: It's all in the past. That doesn't make your eschatology "historist". Historic Pre-Millennialism traces its lineage back to the earliest Church. They did not call it such because at that time, neither Post-Millennialism nor Ammillennialism had been developed as eschatologies: hence "Historic" Pre-Millennialism was coined to describe the earliest, most fundamental eschatology.

You still didn't give me a date for the stoning of Stephen.

Nor did you list all the desolations that were decreed by God which were poured out on the desolator in accordance to the prophecy in the book of Revelation.

Nor have you answered why war continues up to the end, and since it is ongoing -- how the end came without its cessation.

 

[ATP]

I'm not following how this post proves a gap.

Dan 9:27 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV are all future prophecies of the Antichrist setting up an abomination of desolation in the third temple.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The covenant was confirmed for one week,

You're using the word 'gabar' wrong by using it as given in the English and not researching its Hebraic meaning.

As a verb it means to prevail, usually by military might.
As an adjective, it means to be strong.

The damage the KJV did to the language was to take its meaning as strong as an adjective, which can also be said to be firm, and then make it a positive action by saying to confirm.

The covenant with many will not be confirmed, but forced upon. The anti-Christ will prevail by might, an agreement between parties.

 

[ATP]

The covenant with many will not be confirmed, but forced upon. The anti-Christ will prevail by might, an agreement between parties.

It will be the covenant of death.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus was not the abomination. Nor was the Cross. The Cross was God's Plan for Redemption. When we're sick and dying, we want warm compresses and chicken soup. - God used a rugged cross and iron nails to heal our deadly sins.

Jesus never "prevailed" by force a limited, short-timed covenant, but one that remains in affect until the "last call" of the three Angels of Revelation and we are gathered up!

What you are espousing is Preterism: It's all in the past. That doesn't make your eschatology "historist". Historic Pre-Millennialism traces its lineage back to the earliest Church. They did not call it such because at that time, neither Post-Millennialism nor Ammillennialism had been developed as eschatologies: hence "Historic" Pre-Millennialism was coined to describe the earliest, most fundamental eschatology.

You still didn't give me a date for the stoning of Stephen.

Nor did you list all the desolations that were decreed by God which were poured out on the desolator in accordance to the prophecy in the book of Revelation.

Nor have you answered why war continues up to the end, and since it is ongoing -- how the end came without its cessation.

Jesuit Preterism/Futurism were an answer to the accusations of Protestants who had already been teaching Protestant Historicism.

Preterism says a one-man Antichrist came in the 1st century and afterward Jesus and His kingdom was set up.
Historicism says an Antichrist system with many men at its head arose in the 6th century and continues today - and also that Jesus and His kingdom begin at the Second Coming.

The 70 Weeks were for the Jews and Jerusalem. The Gospel going forth to the Gentiles at the stoning of Stephen was a turning away from the Jews, as Paul says in Acts 13:46 KJV.

All one need do is count 7 years after Jesus' baptism in 27 A.D. to find the end of the 70th Week, which had to be 34 A.D.

 

[ATP]

Jesuit Preterism/Futurism were an answer to the accusations of Protestants who had already been teaching Protestant Historicism.

Preterism says a one-man Antichrist came in the 1st century and afterward Jesus and His kingdom was set up.
Historicism says an Antichrist system with many men at its head arose in the 6th century and continues today - and also that Jesus and His kingdom begin at the Second Coming.

The 70 Weeks were for the Jews and Jerusalem. The Gospel going forth to the Gentiles at the stoning of Stephen was a turning away from the Jews, as Paul says in Acts 13:46 KJV.

All one need do is count 7 years after Jesus' baptism in 27 A.D. to find the end of the 70th Week, which had to be 34 A.D.

And yet, you do not know how to explain these three passages that have yet to occur....

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[Phoneman777]

ATP, please have a look at the KJV rendering of Daniel 9:27:

"And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

• Jesus confirmed the Covenant of Salvation for 7 years, first in person and then through His disciples (Hebrews 2:3 KJV). He is called the "Messenger of the Covenant" by Malachi (Malachi 3:1 KJV); Jesus said the cup represented His New Covenant blood which is shed for many, the same "many" to which Daniel said He would confirm that Covenant (Matthew 26:28 KJV) ; Paul says Jesus came to confirm the promises, the chief promise being that God would make a New Covenant (Romans 15:8 KJV); Job says Satan makes no Covenants with God's faithful (Job 41:1-4 KJV) and your previous examples of Satan's covenants are with apostates and rebels, not the faithful.

"and in the midst of the week he (Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

• Jesus was baptized at the end of the 69th Week and thus began the 70th Week with the commencement of His earthly ministry. 3 1/2 years into that ministry, Jesus' death caused the sacrifices to cease in Jerusalem as evidenced by the supernatural rending of the veil in the temple indicating the expiration of the Earthly intercessory Levitical priesthood. All sacrifices offered by these Christ-murdering Jews thereafter became in the eyes of God a vain, glorified BBQ.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he (Jesus) shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

• For the overspreading of abominations caused by Christ-murdering Jews and the Romans, Jesus made (past tense) the land desolate by removing His divine protection and allowing the Jews to receive what those Christ-murdering Jews chose to receive: death rather than surrendering their hearts to Jesus.

Remember, the prophecy was for "thy people and thy holy city" and has to do with what the Jewish CHRIST would do, not what some Gentile Antichrist would do.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The implied subject of the verb gabar, which doesn't mean "confirm" reverts to the last person mentioned - whom is the object of the prepositional phrase setting up the detailed parallel verse (with more information about the "end" - the prince who comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary: the anti-Christ.

Jesus never made a covenant which had such a limited time offer so that it expired before the Church took off with the Gentiles.

Jesus made a covenant at the Last Supper, and He paid the price, sealing the deal, on the Cross.

That covenant is still in effect.

It's amazing how far Preterists will go to maintain their eschatology.

 

[Phoneman777]

The implied subject of the verb gabar, which doesn't mean "confirm" reverts to the last person mentioned - whom is the object of the prepositional phrase setting up the detailed parallel verse (with more information about the "end" - the prince who comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary: the anti-Christ. Jesus never made a covenant which had such a limited time offer so that it expired before the Church took off with the Gentiles.

Jesus made a covenant at the Last Supper, and He paid the price, sealing the deal, on the Cross.

That covenant is still in effect.

It's amazing how far Preterists will go to maintain their eschatology.

I'm a Protestant Historicist, not a Jesuit Preterist or Jesuit Futurist. Your assumption that the last person mentioned - the destroyer of the Jerusalem after Messiah is cutoff - is the Antichrist is incorrect because the "Prince that shall come" can only either be Prince Titus and his army or Prince Jesus and His rebellious people who through rejection of Him caused His divine protection to be withdrawn. No where in this text does the "Prince" refer to the Antichrist, which arose in the 6th century in the system of the Papacy. Protestants should be exposing Jesuit Futurism, not defending it.

 

[ATP]

ATP, please have a look at the KJV rendering of Daniel 9:27:

"And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

• Jesus confirmed the Covenant of Salvation for 7 years, first in person and then through His disciples (Hebrews 2:3 KJV). He is called the "Messenger of the Covenant" by Malachi (Malachi 3:1 KJV); Jesus said the cup represented His New Covenant blood which is shed for many, the same "many" to which Daniel said He would confirm that Covenant (Matthew 26:28 KJV) ; Paul says Jesus came to confirm the promises, the chief promise being that God would make a New Covenant (Romans 15:8 KJV); Job says Satan makes no Covenants with God's faithful (Job 41:1-4 KJV) and your previous examples of Satan's covenants are with apostates and rebels, not the faithful.

"and in the midst of the week he (Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

• Jesus was baptized at the end of the 69th Week and thus began the 70th Week with the commencement of His earthly ministry. 3 1/2 years into that ministry, Jesus' death caused the sacrifices to cease in Jerusalem as evidenced by the supernatural rending of the veil in the temple indicating the expiration of the Earthly intercessory Levitical priesthood. All sacrifices offered by these Christ-murdering Jews thereafter became in the eyes of God a vain, glorified BBQ.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he (Jesus) shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

• For the overspreading of abominations caused by Christ-murdering Jews and the Romans, Jesus made (past tense) the land desolate by removing His divine protection and allowing the Jews to receive what those Christ-murdering Jews chose to receive: death rather than surrendering their hearts to Jesus.

Remember, the prophecy was for "thy people and thy holy city" and has to do with what the Jewish CHRIST would do, not what some Gentile Antichrist would do.

It's all well and good to quote man's commentary which is translator bias (KJV says this and NIV says that), but you still would need to explain Matt 24:15 NIV and 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV. Otherwise, your argument is weak.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I'm a Protestant Historicist, not a Jesuit Preterist or Jesuit Futurist. Your assumption that the last person mentioned - the destroyer of the Jerusalem after Messiah is cutoff - is the Antichrist is incorrect because the "Prince that shall come" can only either be Prince Titus and his army or Prince Jesus and His rebellious people who through rejection of Him caused His divine protection to be withdrawn. No where in this text does the "Prince" refer to the Antichrist, which arose in the 6th century in the system of the Papacy. Protestants should be exposing Jesuit Futurism, not defending it.

What you espouse is Preterism.

Titus determines the people from whom the anti-Christ comes. He never made a covenant for the one 'seven'.

Now, like most Preterists, you're all over the map.

First you say Jesus started the one 'seven' and He is at the midpoint.

Then you say it's a person who comes 40 years later - OR - you link Jesus to the Zealots.

And then you pin the tail on the Pope in the 500's after Rome's fall... You're all over the place willy-nilly trying to get anything to stick. Sorry Charlie, only the best tuna will do.

And the offer of Grace has never been withdrawn! Only not accepted!

 

[ATP]

Future..

Dan 11:31 NIV "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Dan 12:11 NIV “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

 

[Phoneman777]

What you espouse is Preterism.

Titus determines the people from whom the anti-Christ comes. He never made a covenant for the one 'seven'.

Now, like most Preterists, you're all over the map.

First you say Jesus started the one 'seven' and He is at the midpoint.

Then you say it's a person who comes 40 years later - OR - you link Jesus to the Zealots.

And then you pin the tail on the Pope in the 500's after Rome's fall... You're all over the place willy-nilly trying to get anything to stick. Sorry Charlie, only the best tuna will do.

And the offer of Grace has never been withdrawn! Only not accepted!

Have it your way, friend, but I assure you I don't subscribe to either Jesuit Preterism or Jesuit Futurism.

 

[Phoneman777]

Future..

Dan 11:31 NIV "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Dan 12:11 NIV “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

That happened already.

The Papacy hijacked the "daily" ("sacrifice" is not in the original MSS) which refers to the WHOLE of the sanctuary intercessory priesthood service, which the Papacy claims to this day.

 

[Phoneman777]

The implied subject of the verb gabar, which doesn't mean "confirm" reverts to the last person mentioned - whom is the object of the prepositional phrase setting up the detailed parallel verse (with more information about the "end" - the prince who comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary: the anti-Christ.

"he" can easily refer to "Prince Messiah". Did not His people destroy the city and the temple by bringing divine judgment upon themselves through steadfast refusal to accept their Messiah? Yes, they did. And Prince Messiah confirmed His Covenant of Grace for 7 years, first in person and then through His disciples.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

No, the Romans destroyed it

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

There is no seven year covenant in either the Gospels or Acts.

And tell me, a covenant is a specific set of quid pro quo between two or more parties.

Please provide chapter and verse detailing the two (or more) sides of this agreement when Jesus was baptized

 

[ATP]

That happened already.

The Papacy hijacked the "daily" ("sacrifice" is not in the original MSS) which refers to the WHOLE of the sanctuary intercessory priesthood service, which the Papacy claims to this day.

No it hasn't. 1290 and 1335 days in Dan 12:11-12 NIV are in reference to the 70th week and beyond. Even Daniel 12 is titled "The End Times", and ignoring Matt 24:15 NIV and 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV makes you look more desperate with every post. 1260/3.5 years + 30 = 1290 + 45 = 1335. I suggest you read a book...

Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewra01.JPG

1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV, Rev 6:8 NIV.
2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Dan 11:31 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, the Romans destroyed it

Yes, the Jews were ultimately responsible for destroying Jerusalem by bringing divine judgment upon themselves.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV)

 

[Phoneman777]

No it hasn't. 1290 and 1335 days in Dan 12:11-12 NIV are in reference to the 70th week and beyond. Even Daniel 12 is titled "The End Times", and ignoring Matt 24:15 NIV and 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV makes you look more desperate with every post. 1260/3.5 years + 30 = 1290 + 45 = 1335. I suggest you read a book...

Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewra01.JPG

1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV, Rev 6:8 NIV.
2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Dan 11:31 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.

According to Protestant Historicism, the "1260", "1290", and "1335" have absolutely nothing to do with the 70 Weeks prophecy, which ended in 34 A.D. EXACTLY 70 weeks after it began with no gap.

Why can't you see that when the Daniel said the time period would be 70 Weeks, he meant just that and no more? You cannot find any other prophecy in Scripture where its numerically assigned date of commencement and duration contains a gap. The prophecy is 70 Weeks long and begins in 457 B.C. which means it ends in 34 A.D. with no gap - the gap came from the mind of Jesuit Francisco Ribera and you are following a doctrine from a system that says the Pope is God on Earth and all who will be saved must be subservient to him. Do you even realize that?