Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And would you apply that here?

Matthew 12:40 KJV
40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

If we shouldn't consider that there was a real guy named Jonah, and since there wasn't an actual fish, and not a real 3 days, like monday/tuesday/wednesday, like that, If Jesus wasn't prophesying that He'd be dead and buried for 3 days, what is the actually spiritual meaning we are meant to take from that passage?

Not the fleshy understanding, like, He would be dead, and raised back to life in three days, but the real meaning, what is that?

Or would you leave room to consider it may be an actual man, and a real fish, and a true 3 days, and a prophecy of death and resurrection?

Much love!
The truth to be learned about Jonas was that he was ALIVE for 3 days in the would be grave of the fish, but the fish could not hold him.
The "spiritual thing" about Jesus is that the grave/death could not hold Him, who is eternally ALIVE. Though His mortal flesh died (tasted death), He who is eternal continued to live in Spirit. So in essence, Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Jacob I loved; Esau I hated." God decides whom to bless and his purposes are his.
You are not telling the whole story of why God hated Esau.
Esau disregarded, ignored and neglected his "birthright".
The same now applies to everone who does the same towards God, who allowed His Son to be sacrificed for us, so that we may also have a "birthright", and that is for us the believe in Jesus and to be "born again" by God's Holy Spirit.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,665
6,462
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The truth to be learned about Jonas was that he was ALIVE for 3 days in the would be grave of the fish, but the fish could not hold him.
The "spiritual thing" about Jesus is that the grave/death could not hold Him, who is eternally ALIVE. Though His mortal flesh died (tasted death), He who is eternal continued to live in Spirit. So in essence, Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep.
Then according to you all we had was a human sacrifice, therefore you are not redeemed.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,909
21,964
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The truth to be learned about Jonas was that he was ALIVE for 3 days in the would be grave of the fish, but the fish could not hold him.
The "spiritual thing" about Jesus is that the grave/death could not hold Him, who is eternally ALIVE. Though His mortal flesh died (tasted death), He who is eternal continued to live in Spirit. So in essence, Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep.
What I'm asking, really, to get to the core, did these things actually happen?

You appear to recommend that I spiritualize the events portrayed in Scripture, and we are talking in a prophetic context, so I picked that sort of example.

I'm sorry, I think I'm realizing I didn't say it very well before so let me try again.

I'm saying prophetic events will happen as according to the prophet narrative. The LORD shall go forth, and fight against the nations that gather against Jerusalem. I think that's going to occur just like that. A bunch of armies camped around Jerusalem, invading, destroying. He will stand upon the mount of olives, it will split in two, and the Jews are told to flee through that valley.

I'm saying that I don't see that this prophecy has been fulfilled because these things haven't happened before.

You are apparently saying I need to see it spiritually, that I should be comparing spiritual with spiritual, instead of looking at it fleshy.

So I'm choosing another example with prophet significance connecting three times in history, and from fulfilled prophecy, so we can see how it works.

Jonah was swallowed by the fish, then vomited back out after 3 days. Jesus referred to those three days as the same as how He will spend 3 days in the heart of the earth.

So this is my follow up.

Did these actual events happen? If they didn't actually happen, what is the spiritual meaning we are to understand from these descriptions? If Jonah wasn't actually swallowed by the fish, what does that story teach us? And if Jesus wasn't actually dead 3 days, and then risen from among the rest of the dead ones, again, what is the spiritual message for us through that otherwise fictional story?

And if these things really did happen, then why shouldn't we be thinking that YHWH actually will stand on the mount of olives, and it actually will split into two halves?

Much love!
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,665
6,462
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
What I'm asking, really, to get to the core, did these things actually happen?

You appear to recommend that I spiritualize the events portrayed in Scripture, and we are talking in a prophetic context, so I picked that sort of example.

I'm sorry, I think I'm realizing I didn't say it very well before so let me try again.

I'm saying prophetic events will happen as according to the prophet narrative. The LORD shall go forth, and fight against the nations that gather against Jerusalem. I think that's going to occur just like that. A bunch of armies camped around Jerusalem, invading, destroying. He will stand upon the mount of olives, it will split in two, and the Jews are told to flee through that valley.

I'm saying that I don't see that this prophecy has been fulfilled because these things haven't happened before.

You are apparently saying I need to see it spiritually, that I should be comparing spiritual with spiritual, instead of looking at it fleshy.

So I'm choosing another example with prophet significance connecting three times in history, and from fulfilled prophecy, so we can see how it works.

Jonah was swallowed by the fish, then vomited back out after 3 days. Jesus referred to those three days as the same as how He will spend 3 days in the heart of the earth.

So this is my follow up.

Did these actual events happen? If they didn't actually happen, what is the spiritual meaning we are to understand from these descriptions? If Jonah wasn't actually swallowed by the fish, what does that story teach us? And if Jesus wasn't actually dead 3 days, and then risen from among the rest of the dead ones, again, what is the spiritual message for us through that otherwise fictional story?

And if these things really did happen, then why shouldn't we be thinking that YHWH actually will stand on the mount of olives, and it actually will split into two halves?

Much love!
KJV Hosea 6:1-3
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

I find the above an interesting connection between the passion and resurrection, and the pouring out of the holy Spirit. It was only after his burial and resurrection that Jonah had the power to oversee the most successful gospel crusade in history. The only real evidence I believe of the real latter rain upon God's people will be an equally successful campaign. Despite pretensions and claims to having experienced such latter rain, I'm yet to be convinced that what Hosea and Joel prophesied have yet to fully eventuate. The real thing I think will surprise everyone... Especially the church. But we gotta die first.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then according to you all we had was a human sacrifice, therefore you are not redeemed.
In case you forgot, or don't know, Jesus wasn't human prior to conception through the virgin Mary.
Heb. 10[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jonah was swallowed by the fish, then vomited back out after 3 days. Jesus referred to those three days as the same as how He will spend 3 days in the heart of the earth.

So this is my follow up.

Did these actual events happen? If they didn't actually happen, what is the spiritual meaning we are to understand from these descriptions? If Jonah wasn't actually swallowed by the fish, what does that story teach us? And if Jesus wasn't actually dead 3 days, and then risen from among the rest of the dead ones, again, what is the spiritual message for us through that otherwise fictional story?
God's word says that the story of Jonah did happen. If it didn't happen, and Jesus used it to point to Himself, then His story about Himself in conjunction with it, is a lie.

But, since all of the above really IS TRUTH, then what I have said previously about Jonah and Jesus, is the truthful understanding of how we are to discern and conclude the meaning of it.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,909
21,964
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God's word says that the story of Jonah did happen. If it didn't happen, and Jesus used it to point to Himself, then His story about Himself in conjunction with it, is a lie.

But, since all of the above really IS TRUTH, then what I have said previously about Jonah and Jesus, is the truthful understanding of how we are to discern and conclude the meaning of it.

Why then shouldn't we expect these other things to actually happen? That the LORD will stand on the mount of olives, which will split in two, leaving a valley through which the Jews are instructed to flee?

Much love!
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,665
6,462
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
In case you forgot, or don't know, Jesus wasn't human prior to conception through the virgin Mary.
Heb. 10[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Yes, I am aware of that. But what you are saying, that only the body of Jesus died, only His human part, then all we have is a human sacrifice.
I believe a better understanding of the nature of Jesus, both human and divine, will afford us a far greater appreciation for the sacrifice, and the risk, He took in laying down His life for mankind.
Jesus died. Fully, completely, utterly. Not one part remained alive. He took upon Himself the same death we must all experience if not for His sacrifice. Otherwise we are still lost, and the punishment we deserve we must still accept.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,909
21,964
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because God's promises to the nation of Israel were conditional.
Some were, yes. Not all, though.

The first one I'll name is God's gift to Abram and his descendants, promising him the Land. And that promise is maintained throughout Scripture, and will be kept when Jesus returns.

Much love!
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,665
6,462
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Some were, yes. Not all, though.

The first one I'll name is God's gift to Abram and his descendants, promising him the Land. And that promise is maintained throughout Scripture, and will be kept when Jesus returns.

Much love!
I will speak of this in a separate post as I promised previously, but would like you to consider
KJV Hebrews 11:8-10
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In case you forgot, or don't know, Jesus wasn't human prior to conception through the virgin Mary.
Heb. 10[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
I supose I wasn't clear at the end of my reply, which begged you to question what I said.
I previously wrote:
The truth to be learned about Jonas was that he was ALIVE for 3 days in the would be grave of the fish, but the fish could not hold him.
The "spiritual thing" about Jesus is that the grave/death could not hold Him, who is eternally ALIVE. Though His mortal flesh died (tasted death), He who is eternal continued to live in Spirit. So in essence, Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep.

Correction: I should've added:
"Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep", > but then resurrected into his New Life of immortality, because he was, and is always eternal.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,665
6,462
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I supose I wasn't clear at the end of my reply, which begged you to question what I said.
I previously wrote:
The truth to be learned about Jonas was that he was ALIVE for 3 days in the would be grave of the fish, but the fish could not hold him.
The "spiritual thing" about Jesus is that the grave/death could not hold Him, who is eternally ALIVE. Though His mortal flesh died (tasted death), He who is eternal continued to live in Spirit. So in essence, Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep.

Correction: I should've added:
"Jesus' death was as one who fell asleep", > but then resurrected into his New Life of immortality, because he was, and is always eternal.
You are however perhaps unconsciously supporting the idea that only a part of Jesus died by the erroneous concept of man's natural immortality and that in death man is still alive somewhere. You get one concept of scripture wrong and other errors follow in their train.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why then shouldn't we expect these other things to actually happen? That the LORD will stand on the mount of olives, which will split in two, leaving a valley through which the Jews are instructed to flee?

Much love!
Very good direct question!
First and foremost, the OT prophets were used by God to speak through them to Israel. Therefore, because Jesus had not appeared yet, God spent all of His effort on trying to get Israel to understand the reality of His Son's first coming.
Iows, God's emphasis through the OT prophets, spoke mostly about the event of Jesus' first coming and not that much about anything else beyond it.
So, by using the analogy of building construction, if one can't get the foundation of a house started, because of poor communication with the laborers, why talk about the construction of the roof to be completed in the far future.

As for prophetic scripture, God's thoughts are not our thoughts! Though he is relegated and limited to use our words of language to communicate to us, that communication is not to be comprehended or understood on the level of our human minds. Hence the NEED for Him to deposit within us "the mind of Christ", his Holy Spirit to interpret and transpose God's meaning to us.

I will share with you my understanding about the prophetic events you recently mentioned.
Please be aware, that my understanding will not come across to you in the way that you are accustomed to. Therefore, at first it will sound strange and even unsettling to you.
Not because you can't know it, but rather because you, as with most christians, have been force fed fabrications by
"churchianity", that have become deep rooted in your natural thinking process.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are however perhaps unconsciously supporting the idea that only a part of Jesus died by the erroneous concept of man's natural immortality and that in death man is still alive somewhere. You get one concept of scripture wrong and other errors follow in their train.
Becareful that you are not jumping to conclusions, by assuming that I think that man has been "given" an immortal soul.
He has not!
Man "became a living soul"-KJV.
God breathed oxygenated air (the breath of life*) into him, and his lungs then expelled CO2, and deflated, thus feeding all his many living cells within his flesh and blood body, of which now demanded more, in order to stay alive.
It's rather quite simple. If there is no more oxygenated air inflating the lungs, then there will be no "living soul".

Btw, Jesus, who ascended into Heaven physically, does not need/require oxygenated air or blood to retain His immortal life. His New life is now delivered to Him and maintained soley by the Spirit of God.

*Note- what did Moses know about the reality of the Oxygen atom?
Absolutely nothing!
All he knew was, is that "air" is "the breath of life".
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,621
1,550
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I am aware of that. But what you are saying, that only the body of Jesus died, only His human part, then all we have is a human sacrifice.
I believe a better understanding of the nature of Jesus, both human and divine, will afford us a far greater appreciation for the sacrifice, and the risk, He took in laying down His life for mankind.
Jesus died. Fully, completely, utterly. Not one part remained alive. He took upon Himself the same death we must all experience if not for His sacrifice. Otherwise we are still lost, and the punishment we deserve we must still accept.
The Spirit of God simply says this: "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission (removal of sin)". Hebrews 9:22

The perfect and sinless blood of "the Lamb of God" shed His blood.
For the forgiveness of sin, the demand of God the Father, was completely fulfilled by God the Son.
On God's behalf, for the sake of His Son and His forgiveness towards us, He now requests and requires that we have faith in the finished work of His Son's shed blood.
There is nothing else that shall do the job of removing our sin.

So, what was required on the cross of Jesus? He was to shed His Blood!
Is there anything else that you might want add to it?
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,846
2,166
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.


Is this by force? Why couldn't their dead relatives participate? So God is going to force them to follow Him just because they are Jews? Some will be saved, as with every other nation in the world.
He doesn't force them Cassandra. He creates them and he repairs them. Consider again what God tells Israel through Ezekiel.

Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

1. Give you a new heart
2. Put a new spirit within you
3. Remove your heart of stone
4. Give you a heart of flesh.

We use this kind of language all the time. How many times have I heard the testimony, "He came to Jesus and became a new man." He was a drunk; he was a fool; he was mean; he beat his wife; he yelled at the kids; he spent his money on the ponies and didn't leave enough for the rent. One day he stops to hear a couple of young college women preach the gospel, and looking right at him they say, "Jesus loves you sir, and he forgives you." He goes home and cries hot tears for hours. He spends days alone, stunned and unable to function. Then, one morning, he wakes up a new man. He preaches the gospel to his wife, his kids, his neighbors, his friends. He gets a steady job, pays all his creditors and works to help others.

Some time during his tears and struggle to make sense of everything, God put a new heart and a new spirit in the man. And the next day, when he woke up, he was a new man.

God doesn't force people to follow him. Instead, he gives them a new heart and a new spirit. After that, they follow him.

And this is a response to what I've bolded

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance."

He doesn't pick and choose. He wants all to come to Him. The ones that died last centuries as well as the ones who live this century.
Yes, Peter does say that God is not willing for any to perish. In this context Peter is dealing with people who have lost hope and have given up on the promises God made to Israel. Those who openly voice despair cause other people to doubt and begin to lose faith. For this reason, Peter defends the faith by giving his readers another explanation for why God would delay his promise.

First of all, God works his plans over many thousands of years, operating on a geological time scale. God's work day is like a thousand years to us. But in the end, he is going to destroy it all with fire. So why did he create the world then? Seems like a futile exercise right? He creates a world; the process takes thousands of years; and when he is all finished he torches it? What purpose did it serve? What does it mean?

Peter is telling his readers that although God will destroy this world, it serves a great purpose. This world is the venue wherein the human race learns wisdom, learns about God, learns to appreciate and value what God values. But lest we forget, each one of us is part of this creation. Each person in creation is placed here to help God give expression to his character. Some of us were created to be judged; others were created to be forgiven. In this way, God is able to demonstrate his justice, his mercy, his patience, his righteousness, his goodness, and his love. He creates each person to play a role in history, which demonstrates some aspect of God's character. On the one hand, God desires that none should perish but regrettably, in order for God to reveal his justice, he decided to create some who would perish. Peter tells his readers the meaning and the purpose of destroying the world by fire. He writes, "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

So we might ask ourselves, "did God plan to destroy the earth in this way, or was this an after thought?" This speaks to the larger question, "Is God reactive or proactive?" In my studies I have found that God is proactive, not reactive. He created the world knowing in advance that he would destroy it, which means he knew in advance the purpose it would serve, i.e. the judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Paul the Apostle, writes about this in his letter to the Romans saying, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Romans 8:20-21

During these many thousands of years, many people will be born and many will perish, but the question remains, who among us will come to understand that this world is not permanent and that we are all seeking something more permanent, more fulfilling, more just, more righteous and more loving?

Peter is expressing God's heart when he says that God is not willing that any should perish and that all should come to repentance. But he also brings his explanation back to the creation story, helping his readers understand the nature of God as creator. The flooding of the world was not an accident. God destroyed it on purpose. The destruction of Sodom was not an accident. God destroyed it on purpose. The destruction of human beings is not an accident; God destroys them on purpose also. But he also created them for that purpose. This is why Paul says that God creates some to be vessels of judgment while he creates others to be vessels of mercy. Human beings don't decide which vessel to be. God does.

Gal 3:28, 29
"28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 2:28,29 "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God."

They broke their covenant with God.
The Jews have the same opportunity as everyone else to be saved or lost.
Not just because they are Jewish. Read the Parable of the Tenants Matt 21:33-43.

Also when Jesus comes back the dead will be raised and all of His people will meet him in the air.
1 Thess4:16
'For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever"

Yes, the Bible tells us that we an opportunity to be saved. That is, there is an opportune time when the call goes out. For instance, David writes, "Today, if you would hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, As in the day of Massah in the wilderness . . ." But Paul reminds his Hebrew readers that, "they were not able to enter because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:19 But God tells Israel, on that day he will soften their hearts and give them a new heart and a new spirit.

If God is not willing that any should perish, why does he not soften everyone's heart?
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,846
2,166
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are not telling the whole story of why God hated Esau.
Esau disregarded, ignored and neglected his "birthright".
The same now applies to everone who does the same towards God, who allowed His Son to be sacrificed for us, so that we may also have a "birthright", and that is for us the believe in Jesus and to be "born again" by God's Holy Spirit.
Okay, you only gave half an explanation. You explained why God hated Esau. Now explain why God loved Jacob.