Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

[marks]

I will speak of this in a separate post as I promised previously, but would like you to consider
KJV Hebrews 11:8-10
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Are you thinking this nullified God's covenant with Abraham? I don't.

Abraham showed his faith in God, but that doesn't mean that God promised in vain.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are not telling the whole story of why God hated Esau.
Esau disregarded, ignored and neglected his "birthright".
The same now applies to everone who does the same towards God, who allowed His Son to be sacrificed for us, so that we may also have a "birthright", and that is for us the believe in Jesus and to be "born again" by God's Holy Spirit.

I thought God chose before they were born, to make the point that His choosing wasn't about what they would do in their lives, their works. So it's not of works but of choice, Romans 9.

God's hatred for Esau meant that whatever Esau would build, God would tear down, Malachi 1. I think it's reasonable to say the inverse, that while God tore down Esau, He established Jacob.

Much love!

 

[marks]

have been force fed fabrications by
"churchianity", that have become deep rooted in your natural thinking process.

I find a lot of conversation with you to be pretty interesting, when we can stick to the material. But this kind of stuff really turns me off.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

I thought God chose before they were born, to make the point that His choosing wasn't about what they would do in their lives, their works. So it's not of works but of choice, Romans 9.

God's hatred for Esau meant that whatever Esau would build, God would tear down, Malachi 1. I think it's reasonable to say the inverse, that while God tore down Esau, He established Jacob.
Much love!

Let's think more in line of God's foreknowledge about who and how Esau and Jacob would be, according to their own free will.
Right out of the gate, before there was any separation between Esau and Jacob, God knew beforehand, that Esau would trade off his birthright for food, thereby revealing that he "despised" his birthright, as being worthless to his immediate needs. KJV- Genesis 25:21-34.

The same similar situation is going to be presented for the taking of the MoB.

 

[Earburner]

I find a lot of conversation with you to be pretty interesting, when we can stick to the material. But this kind of stuff really turns me off.

Much love!

Marks, please do not be offended. I am not speaking to you only here. There is an audience that is reading our words and the biblical concepts that make up our faith.

I for one dwelled in biblical error for a long time, until I became so confused, that I literally almost tossed my faith, but instead did "flee" to Him who IS "the valley", and threw myself upon Him, pleading with the Lord, that He only would lead and guide me, as He promised in John 16:13.
And that He has done, for the past 40 years. Slowly but surely, I finally learned how to grow in/by His Grace.

We all are comparing notes for the knowledge of His Truth, for there can only be one truth about every topic in the Bible, and it best be His, otherwise we are believing a whole host of lies, that string together towards a wrong end.

Some are speaking their knowledge as Zechariah 4:6 describes it, by "might"- human effort, or by "power"- religious persuasion.
We must discern who they are, that are speaking by His Spirit- the mind of Christ.

I am going to address your interests about God's prophecies through Zechariah.
Thanks for your honest appraisal of what I do present on this site.

 

[marks]

Let's think more in line of God's foreknowledge about who and how Esau and Jacob would be, according to their own free will.

Let's think more in line with what the Bible says.

Romans 9:10-13 KJV
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

According to this passage God's selection was specifically not according to their future works.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Marks, please do not be offended.

Look. I'm just saying that's not what I'm here for, so, if that's what there is, I'm not interested.

I don't know why there should be confusion over whether I'm being personally offended, or just pointing to something that doesn't work for me.

It's a distraction, it gets the discussion going the wrong way. I want to stay on topic, not try to unravel someones ideas about what may be going on in my head.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Did God hate Esau for no reason, but then love Jacob for no reason also?

The truth is there was a reason for God's determination about the two.
Esau (being the firstborn) "despised" his inherited birthright, and therefore Esau became unelectable, and was rejected by God.
Jacob (being the secondborn) had NO birthright, and therefore at birth Jacob was born unelectable, but heard God's "call" and was accepted by God.

So, the question to discover here is, which one answered the "call" of God?
Ans. Jacob. He proved to God that he would do anything to obtain the birthright.

Please compare, as to what God was building to with Esau and Jacob, as it pertains to our own salvation and that sin that never has forgiveness:
Hebrew 10[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [made holy, set apart], an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Do you think that such a person, who despises their "calling and election" through Christ, would be "hated" or "loved" by God?
The answer is plain enough, they would endure "sorer punishment" without mercy.

So then, what would be God's reason to allow a person to endure "sorer punishment" without mercy , for counting the Blood of the covenant an unholy thing?
Would it be love?
Or would it be hate?

Matthew 22[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[marks]

Did God hate Esau for no reason, but then love Jacob for no reason also?

To me this is refuted by Romans, that God chose apart from works, to make the point that the choice was His alone, and not based on what they would do.

I fear we are at an impasse.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

^ Now, how does 1 Peter 2:2-21,
(Verse 10) tie in with Esau and Jacob?Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Ans. When one walks and lives in the Holy Spirit and not their flesh, the character/fruit of the Holy Spirit is manifested through us.

 

[Earburner]

To me this is refuted by Romans, that God chose apart from works, to make the point that the choice was His alone, and not based on what they would do.

I fear we are at an impasse.

Much love!

Being called and elected by God requires us to do one of two things: answer His call or neglect and despise it.

You may be at an impasse, but I am not.
God does not over rule or over run our free will of being, just because He "chooses".
He can only choose those who are willing to walk in Him and with Him.
Esau was unwilling, whereas Jacob was eagerly willing!

 

[Brakelite]

Are you thinking this nullified God's covenant with Abraham? I don't.

Abraham showed his faith in God, but that doesn't mean that God promised in vain.

Much love!

I would suggest that the physical land was but a step toward the ultimate goal, not the goal itself. Abraham recognized that, and Jesus affirmed that recognition when He said, Abraham saw my day and was glad. The long term plan of God, the carrying out of His ultimate purpose for mankind, has gone beyond one nation's occupation of a small plot of land in the Middle East. I've been busy this past week, so didn't get to completing my study of the present Israel of God, but it's Sabbath now, and I will be working on it this afternoon. It will answer who is Israel now, and why. At least from how I see the Biblical perspective.
As for your comment previously, (or was it Hiddens?) that only some of God's promises are conditional (in context of the re-establishment of Israel) I would place the differentiation between conditional and unconditional at the same place as the difference between salvational prophecy and apocalyptic prophecy. Israel's salvation and restoration was always on the condition of a change of heart. Deuteronomy 30 which follows the list of blessings and curses that God revealed would be the inevitable consequence of their choice between life and death, or obedience and rebellion, speaks of God's willingness to forgive and restore them. His determination to have compassion on His people, but that compassion was always conditional on Israel's heart attitude. Always. No-where in Israel's recent history as it pertains to the current situation in Palestine, is there any hint that they, as a nation, have met the conditions that would prompt God's compassion on their behalf.
Deut.30:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then (if the above condition is met) the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did God hate Esau for no reason, but then love Jacob for no reason also?

The truth is there was a reason for God's determination about the two.
Esau (being the firstborn) "despised" his inherited birthright, and therefore Esau became unelectable, and was rejected by God.
Jacob (being the secondborn) had NO birthright, and therefore at birth Jacob was born unelectable, but heard God's "call" and was accepted by God.

So, the question to discover here is, which one answered the "call" of God?
Ans. Jacob. He proved to God that he would do anything to obtain the birthright.

Please compare, as to what God was building to with Esau and Jacob, as it pertains to our own salvation and that sin that never has forgiveness:
Hebrew 10[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [made holy, set apart], an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Do you think that such a person, who despises their "calling and election" through Christ, would be "hated" or "loved" by God?
The answer is plain enough, they would endure "sorer punishment" without mercy.

So then, what would be God's reason to allow a person to endure "sorer punishment" without mercy , for counting the Blood of the covenant an unholy thing?
Would it be love?
Or would it be hate?

Matthew 22[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

Marks is trying to point out Paul's view of this. The question of who answered the call of God is incidental to God's choice. If, as you suggest, God is looking down through time to see what each man would do, then it isn't God's choice.

 

[Earburner]

Marks is trying to point out Paul's view of this. The question of who answered the call of God is incidental to God's choice. If, as you suggest, God is looking down through time to see what each man would do, then it isn't God's choice.

I am not contesting "marks" comments or the scripture. I was only caring about the heart of the matter of what God's will is, and then comparing it with additional NT scripture.

There are MANY who have invited themselves to the KoG, but only those who are called by God Himself, and have answered Him [opened the door], are the elect of God. Revelation 3:20

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Please compare that with Matthew 7:22, and listen to those who shall be doing the complaining, of not being accepted by God, though they were "church-goers" and participants all their lives.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
It's not that their "works" were not honorable, it's simply the fact that God never knew them.
Matthew. 22[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

So what is the problem?
Ans. They believed of Jesus, but they never recieved Him, that they may be "born again of His Spirit". Luke 11:13, John 3:3-8.
Romans 8:8-9 explains it rather pointedly: "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

So then, how does one "make their calling and election sure [sealed]"?
Ans. Revelation 3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice [my calling], and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Again, John 3:3-8, Luke 11:13, Romans 8:8-9.

 

[Earburner]

Okay, you only gave half an explanation. You explained why God hated Esau. Now explain why God loved Jacob.

Jacob heard the "call" of God, and proved to God that he would do anything to obtain the birthright that was destined to Esau, who for the sake of some food, despised it.
We also have the opportunity for a "birthright", to be "born again" in/by the Holy Spirit . We either answer is calling, or we don't.
If not, then God cannot and will not enter into a covenant relationship with us, thus leaving us to remain in our original situation of being "condemned already".
John 3:18

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jacob heard the "call" of God, and proved to God that he would do anything to obtain the birthright that was destined to Esau, who for the sake of some food, despised it.
We also have the opportunity for a "birthright", to be "born again" in/by the Holy Spirit . We either answer is calling, or we don't.
If not, then God cannot and will not enter into a covenant relationship with us, thus leaving us to remain in our original situation of being "condemned already".
John 3:18

I don't think so. Jacob didn't hear a call. He and his mother conspired to steal the birthright.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am not contesting "marks" comments or the scripture. I was only caring about the heart of the matter of what God's will is, and then comparing it with additional NT scripture.

There are MANY who have invited themselves to the KoG, but only those who are called by God Himself, and have answered Him [opened the door], are the elect of God. Revelation 3:20

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Please compare that with Matthew 7:22, and listen to those who shall be doing the complaining, of not being accepted by God, though they were "church-goers" and participants all their lives.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
It's not that their "works" were not honorable, it's simply the fact that God never knew them.
Matthew. 22[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

So what is the problem?
Ans. They believed of Jesus, but they never recieved Him, that they may be "born again of His Spirit". Luke 11:13, John 3:3-8.
Romans 8:8-9 explains it rather pointedly: "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

So then, how does one "make their calling and election sure [sealed]"?
Ans. Revelation 3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice [my calling], and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Again, John 3:3-8, Luke 11:13, Romans 8:8-9.

Once again, your explanation doesn't square with Paul's argument in Romans 9. He tells you that, "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

In your scenario where God, through his foreknowledge, chooses the boy who will answer his call, it DOES depend on the will of Jacob and Esau, which is contrary to what Paul said.

 

[Earburner]

I don't think so. Jacob didn't hear a call. He and his mother conspired to steal the birthright.

Then you miscontruing the meaning of what Paul spoke in Romans 9:11...that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Here is the context in Romans:

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump also; and if the root is holy, so the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Romans 11:16-28)

Interesting question.

The branches must be the Jewish people, and now the Gentiles (that were grafted in).

This would make the root either God Father and His plan for the world coming to know Him through the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews
OR
Maybe the promise that God made to Abraham -- which might be the same since in either case it would refer back to God Father and His promise to include all in His salvation economy.

(will read through when I have more time....)

 

[Earburner]

Once again, your explanation doesn't square with Paul's argument in Romans 9. He tells you that, "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

In your scenario where God, through his foreknowledge, chooses the boy who will answer his call, it DOES depend on the will of Jacob and Esau, which is contrary to what Paul said.

Were you physically born into this world already believing in Jesus as your Savior, from day one??
No, you weren't. No one is!
So, what was it that caused you to believe in Jesus? What did you hear or see, that led you to Him?