Who is this Babylon chick anyways?

[Davy]

Tyre was not the island and that was just the military outpost. Tyre was the mainland city that is no longer there that Hannibal dismantled to create a land bridge to get to the island fortress. If I remember my history correctly.

Who is the largest trading partner in the world right now to sell into? What percentage of world trade would be affected if USA were wiped of the earth tomorrow? Would all who trade by sea be very upset or just inconvenienced?

The rock island of Tyre was a major port of commerce in ancient times, so you might want to brush up on your history.

Tyre

And it wasn't Hannibal that built the land bridge out to it in conquering it, it was Alexander the Great and his army.

The rock island of Tyre still exist today, as a tourist location.

 

[Davy]

Yes, very possibly true.


The economic system may be epitomized and represented by a single great city among all the cities of the world. And so the destruction of that one city represents the fall of the entire system.

Close, but God's Word reveals where that "great city" will be, and even who is coming to sit over it, and over all nations and peoples on earth.

It is Jerusalem in a fallen state of false worship for the very end.

 

[David Boyer]

James equates adultery with love of the world. Hosea married a harlot to demonstrate spiritual adultery etc etc etc etc etc Show us the verse where it means Epstein like pedo?

There is no verse that says it means "Epstein like pedo". Whatever that phrase was meant to mean.

 

[David Boyer]

The rock island of Tyre was a major port of commerce in ancient times, so you might want to brush up on your history.

Tyre

And it wasn't Hannibal that built the land bridge out to it in conquering it, it was Alexander the Great and his army.

The rock island of Tyre still exist today, as a tourist location.

Yep I thought I got the dude wrong... but the city was on the coast and it's stones made that mole on your map.

 

[David Boyer]

So unless you see principles that permeate the bible in one verse or chapter, you think they must not apply, for no particular reason, and despite the obvious fit. OK.

That is rich, coming from someone who raised Jefferey Epstein!

I didn't raise Jefferey Epstein... I believe his mother did that.

In what venn diagram do your two sentences meet?

Unless the Bible states that the Whore in Revelation is false worship... then it remains in the realm of speculation. Show some absolute proof that in Revelation the Whore of Babylon specifically refers to false worship. Not worship of the Whore, but that the Whore represents in herself, false worship. If the verse is not there then you are speculating and should say as much.

 

[dad]

There is no verse that says it means "Epstein like pedo". Whatever that phrase was meant to mean.

You raised that issue. Where are all your verses to support it?

 

[dad]

I didn't raise Jefferey Epstein... I believe his mother did that.

In what venn diagram do your two sentences meet?

Unless the Bible states that the Whore in Revelation is false worship... then it remains in the realm of speculation. Show some absolute proof that in Revelation the Whore of Babylon specifically refers to false worship. Not worship of the Whore, but that the Whore represents in herself, false worship. If the verse is not there then you are speculating and should say as much.

There are two chapters about the whore. One brings out the religious nature the other the commercial.

 

[David Boyer]

You raised that issue. Where are all your verses to support it?

Oh... now I think I sorted out your question.

Where is my texts that say Epstein is in Revelation... more or less accurate portrayal of your question? I want to be fair and answer the question you actually asked.

Ok, how this works is I assume that Revelation is true and Jesus, John and the angels are not trying to hide the details, but to reveal... because "Revelation" is the name of the book.
Secondly, I read the story for what it is; a vision. If you or I saw the same event that John did we would describe the events exactly the same, with maybe place names updated.
Thirdly, the description, picture of the vision is exactly as it says, unless the vision gets a deeper meaning explained, within the vision. Or another way of saying that is the words mean only what they actually mean unless more detail is given in Revelation.
Fourthly, what modern events fit the "literal" reading of Revelation (notice I don't say interpretation of Revelation, only reading) and then it might be possible to make an educated guess as to what it all means in today land.

So lets play that out.

First, Revelation is the basis for this story.
Second, Read Rev 17:2
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Third, Fornication means "sexual morality" that is all. no further meaning drawn
Four, Is there a person/group/place that is committing fornication with kings of the earth... (The news story of Prince Andrew... Epstein Island... young girls... blackmail)

That is my logic on this... only a snapshot. Yes I go a bit deeper than that. But that's the basics.

So how do I get the Whore might be connected to Epstein and Hollywood and America as a whole. Because it fits if the Bible is true. Is it the absolute truth. I don't think so. But it makes for a valid reason to believe that America is the Whore.

 

[dad]

Oh... now I think I sorted out your question.

Where is my texts that say Epstein is in Revelation... more or less accurate portrayal of your question? I want to be fair and answer the question you actually asked.

Where did I say that spiritual adultery is some new concept taught about in Revelation? I said the bible often uses the association.

Ok,

how this works is I assume that Revelation is true and Jesus, John and the angels are not trying to hide the details, but to reveal... because "Revelation" is the name of the book.
Secondly, I read the story for what it is; a vision. If you or I saw the same event that John did we would describe the events exactly the same, with maybe place names updated.
Thirdly, the description, picture of the vision is exactly as it says, unless the vision gets a deeper meaning explained, within the vision. Or another way of saying that is the words mean only what they actually mean unless more detail is given in Revelation.
Fourthly, what modern events fit the "literal" reading of Revelation (notice I don't say interpretation of Revelation, only reading) and then it might be possible to make an educated guess as to what it all means in today land.

So lets play that out.

First, Revelation is the basis for this story.
Second, Read Rev 17:2
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Third, Fornication means "sexual morality" that is all. no further meaning drawn

We should have read the rest of the bible before arriving at the last book. If so we would already know what God usually refers to using those words.

Four, Is there a person/group/place that is committing fornication with kings of the earth... (The news story of Prince Andrew... Epstein Island... young girls... blackmail)

Nothing about those people in Revelation. In fact we see emphasis on trade and trade by sea. So if you want to relate that to modern times what great city system/nation has made other nations rich by trade? What great nation has corrupted the world? Would you say Greece? Russia? China? I think the US would be the best fit there.

That is my logic on this... only a snapshot. Yes I go a bit deeper than that. But that's the basics.

So how do I get the Whore might be connected to Epstein and Hollywood and America as a whole. Because it fits if the Bible is true. Is it the absolute truth. I don't think so. But it makes for a valid reason to believe that America is the Whore.

We also see that the kings who committed the fornication are traders.

Revelation 18:9

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning

Revelation 18:15

The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,


Revelation 18:19

And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! We also see that it is a nation or great city where the gospel was heard. The US has been known for that. China, no. Russia, not so much.
Revelation 18:23

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

 

[Brakelite]

Show your work was a requirement of the OP.

You repeatedly deny the possibility of spiritual adultery.
KJV Jeremiah 3:6
6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
The above describes an entity, Israel, as having backslidden and played the harlot. How has she done this? By being unfaithful to her Husband, the Lord. How can a nation be unfaithful? By worshiping another. Spiritual adultery.
Babylon the Great is similar. An entity of the NT who has forsaken her Husband, Christ, and gone off and played the harlot with others... In her case politicians and merchants. That she is being referred to as a divorced, apostate entity informs the reader that she is a church. A Christian church.
The next task is to work out which Christian church in current affairs and in history has abandoned her true Husband, Christ, in favor of worldly politics and the gathering of immense wealth. Should be easy.

 

[David Boyer]

You repeatedly deny the possibility of spiritual adultery.
KJV Jeremiah 3:6
6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
The above describes an entity, Israel, as having backslidden and played the harlot. How has she done this? By being unfaithful to her Husband, the Lord. How can a nation be unfaithful? By worshiping another. Spiritual adultery.
Babylon the Great is similar. An entity of the NT who has forsaken her Husband, Christ, and gone off and played the harlot with others... In her case politicians and merchants. That she is being referred to as a divorced, apostate entity informs the reader that she is a church. A Christian church.
The next task is to work out which Christian church in current affairs and in history has abandoned her true Husband, Christ, in favor of worldly politics and the gathering of immense wealth. Should be easy.

I don't deny the possibility of spiritual adultery. I say that the text doesn't say that it is.
You deny the possibility that the Whore is simply using sexual acts to control the kings of the earth.
I'm pointing out that in the news simple sexual acts were being used to control the kings of the earth.

Why are you arguing with me instead of the evidence that the text says sexual fornication is the mechanism used to control the kings?
Because you can't argue that unless you add to the words of Revelation (Rev 22:18) and not keep the words of Revelation (Rev 1:3).
By changing the word fornication to mean "spiritual unfaithfulness" instead of "sexual acts" you add words (gain the curse in 22:18) and fail to keep the words (loose a blessing in 1:3) of Revelation.

 

[David Boyer]

Where did I say that spiritual adultery is some new concept taught about in Revelation? I said the bible often uses the association.

Ok,


We should have read the rest of the bible before arriving at the last book. If so we would already know what God usually refers to using those words.


Nothing about those people in Revelation. In fact we see emphasis on trade and trade by sea. So if you want to relate that to modern times what great city system/nation has made other nations rich by trade? What great nation has corrupted the world? Would you say Greece? Russia? China? I think the US would be the best fit there.


We also see that the kings who committed the fornication are traders.

Revelation 18:9

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning

Revelation 18:15

The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,


Revelation 18:19

And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! We also see that it is a nation or great city where the gospel was heard. The US has been known for that. China, no. Russia, not so much.
Revelation 18:23

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

1. Where did I say, that you said spiritual adultery was a new concept. I didn't.

2. I have read the rest of the Bible and of course you fail to understand that Revelation is not the last book. You fundamentally fail to grasp the basics of how the bible is even constructed. And, is every time sexual unfaithfulness is mentioned in the Bible it means spiritual unfaithfulness? So David and Bathsheba only had a "spiritually adulterous" affair? So not every time sexual misconduct is mentioned does it mean spiritual adultery against God.

3. "Nothing about those people in Revelation"??? Did you even read the post you are responding to? How can you say that when I laid out a logical pattern that says they are referenced. Do you know anything about logic? When did you jump to sea trade when we are in verse 17. Please don't get ahead of yourself, you need to stand first before you walk.

4. Kings are traders??? Even your two reference verses don't match up. Kings had fornicated and were sad when she was destroyed. Merchants who traded with her were sad she was destroyed. Yes they both were sad, but other than that there is nothing saying they were the same people.

5. Your last two verses are not even related to fornication or "spiritual adultery".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why are you arguing with me instead of the evidence that the text says sexual fornication is the mechanism used to control the kings?
Because you can't argue that unless you add to the words of Revelation (Rev 22:18) and not keep the words of Revelation (Rev 1:3).
By changing the word fornication to mean "spiritual unfaithfulness" instead of "sexual acts" you add words (gain the curse in 22:18) and fail to keep the words (loose a blessing in 1:3) of Revelation.

How does a king have sex with a city? Obviously, it's figurative.

 

[David Boyer]

How does a king have sex with a city? Obviously, it's figurative.

And how does a king commit spiritual adultery with a city?

Both a figurative in a sense.
But I didn't add any ideas that are not in the text to make my idea work. Babylon as a religious system only works if you add details to the text of Revelation that isn't there.
That would be the very definition on eisegesis.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But it makes for a valid reason to believe that America is the Whore.

But the Bible says the whore is a city. So what you're saying is 'city' is figurative language. The very interpretation of Revelation that you have been resisting.

I think America is only the whore of Babylon in that it is the center and hub of the world's system of capitalistic buying and selling. And so, perhaps, New York City is the city whose destruction represents the destruction of the system of capitalism it champions. But there are other financial hubs in the world that could qualify as the Great City that burns and is mourned by the business people of the world who grew rich from her.

 

[David Boyer]

But the Bible says the whore is a city. So what you're saying is 'city' is figurative language. The very interpretation of Revelation that you have been resisting.

I think America is only the whore of Babylon in that it is the center and hub of the world's system of capitalistic buying and selling. And so, perhaps, New York City is the city whose destruction represents the destruction of the system of capitalism it champions. But there are other financial hubs in the world that could qualify as the Great City that burns and is mourned by the business people of the world who grew rich from her.

I have gone through this. Literal unless specifically mentioned as other (general rule). Since there is a specific mention that the Whore is a city... it follows that she can be seen as both. I have not resisted a figurative reading where it is appropriate. My only personal add is that cities in the early centuries used to be city states, and as such a city could represent a somewhat larger area than just one city. Such as a country. Such as USA entire.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Babylon as a religious system only works if you add details to the text of Revelation that isn't there.

I think Babylon is only 'religious' in the sense of it is full of the worship of false gods and the religions built around those false gods. I suspect the secret to understanding Babylon is to understand the origins and culture of ancient Babylon. Of course Babylon was destroyed and will never be rebuilt to it's former greatness and so 'Babylon' has to be figurative in Revelation. Figurative of everything it was when it was populated and great in the earth before it's everlasting destruction. In other words, it is the spirit of Babylon that is in the earth today. And everything pagan and anti-God and hedonistic that it has always been.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And how does a king commit spiritual adultery with a city?

And that is the proper question, for we know kings don't, and can't have literal sex with a city. So the question HAS to be, "how does a king, or anybody for that matter, commit spiritual/figurative adultery with a 'city'?" Adultery is devotion and intimacy with someone else other than who you are rightfully to be devoted and intimate with. The plain message of Revelation is that the essence of this whoredom/adultery is economic. There is certainly a 'religious' element involved with this, too, for the love of this world is so often connected with the worship of demons, whom pagans credit for giving them the things of the world.

 

[David Boyer]

And that is the proper question, for we know kings don't, and can't have literal sex with a city. So the question HAS to be, "how does a king, or anybody for that matter, commit spiritual/figurative adultery with a 'city'?" Adultery is devotion and intimacy with someone else other than you are rightfully to be devoted and intimate with.

Your line of questioning is just silly. Stop it. Grow up.

If you are serious. Then God help you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your line of questioning is just silly. Stop it. Grow up.

If you are serious. Then God help you.

You're the one who said don't go beyond the words of the scripture by saying the adultery is spiritual. I'm showing you it HAS to be spiritual. It HAS to be.

And I added to that post. Read the rest of it if you want.