Who is this Babylon chick anyways?

[Ferris Bueller]

This helps us understand the essence of adultery in the context of an economic system and the buying and selling of the things of this world:

"3And when you do ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may squander it on your pleasures.4You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God." 1 John 2:3-4
​

Friendship with the world in regard to the pleasures and things of the world is ADULTERY. When a person indulges the love of the world and it's pleasures they are committing ADULTERY. And so that adultery is spiritual/figurative, not literal. Revelation is speaking spiritually/figuratively in regard to adultery.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Close, but God's Word reveals where that "great city" will be, and even who is coming to sit over it, and over all nations and peoples on earth.

It is Jerusalem in a fallen state of false worship for the very end.

The complete and utter and eternal destruction of the Great City is what prevents me from thinking the Great City is Jerusalem.

"With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. The music of harpist and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again." Revelation 18:21-22

"the smoke from her goes up for ever and ever." Revelation 19:3​

We know that is not the destiny of literal Jerusalem at all.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The seven kingdoms or mountains are likely the major powers that Satan ruled that the bible focused on. I would think they are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome, and the final revived Roman Empire. Five were fallen in John's day. One was (Rome) and one was yet to come in the end.

Notice that the 7th head of the beast is actually a 7th and 8th king. The 8th king in effect replacing the 7th:

"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen (#1-5), one is (#6), the other has not yet come (#7); but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast (the king?) who once was, and now is not (at time of writing), is an eighth king." Revelation 17:9-11​

The confusing part is the beast is not only the sum total of all of the the devil's kingdom's in history with it's various heads/kings, it's also the head that represents that sum total of the heads in existence at any one time in history.

The 8th king once was, but was not at the time John is writing this. Where in history past was this 8th king? Who is the 7th king that gets replaced by this 8th king? Has the 7th king appeared yet?

 

[David Boyer]

You're the one who said don't go beyond the words of the scripture by saying the adultery is spiritual. I'm showing you it HAS to be spiritual. It HAS to be.

And I added to that post. Read the rest of it if you want.

Don't go beyond the words of the book of Revelation. The vision illuminates it's self or does not require illumination.

If the angel of God wanted to say the Whore was commingling spiritual adultery it could have. Or if that is the correct way to read the verse then the angel could have offered up that explanation in later verses. Seeing as the angel did not clarify but rather used the same verbiage in later references. The angel doubled down on fornication instead of expanding the definition to include spiritual adultery.

Not that kings of the earth had sex with a city as you like to say (as if that is some kind of a deal breaker), but rather that the "city" of influence used actual sex as a means of influence over the kings. Epstein's island, kings of the earth travelling there for underage sex parties, and the blackmail that would naturally follow, would be a very acceptable reading of the text. If you go back to "sex with a city" then I have lost all hope of getting you to see how language works.

 

[dad]

1. Where did I say, that you said spiritual adultery was a new concept. I didn't.

OK, but if you demanded that it be stated yet again in Rev 17 that sort of ignores the rest of the bible.

2. I have read the rest of the Bible and of course you fail to understand that Revelation is not the last book.

It seems to be last in all the bibles I have seen so far. God seems to have done it that way. Even if John wrote more later, Rev still ended up as the last book of the bible, why quibble over that?

You fundamentally fail to grasp the basics of how the bible is even constructed. And, is every time sexual unfaithfulness is mentioned in the Bible it means spiritual unfaithfulness? So David and Bathsheba only had a "spiritually adulterous" affair? So not every time sexual misconduct is mentioned does it mean spiritual adultery against God.

I thought it was plain as the nose on your face. However, if you for whatever reason prefer to focus exclusively on the physical I guess you can. I did post the verses where commerce with other nations and spiritual corruption was the focus in Rev 17 and 18 though. Nothing about a man cheating in the chapters.

3. "Nothing about those people in Revelation"??? Did you even read the post you are responding to? How can you say that when I laid out a logical pattern that says they are referenced. Do you know anything about logic? When did you jump to sea trade when we are in verse 17. Please don't get ahead of yourself, you need to stand first before you walk.

I know a little about truth and the spirit of God and a sound mind, will that do? The whore in Revelation is covered in 2 chapters. A lot of details are given. I see nothing wrong with taking a looky loo at the rest of the chapters, and even the rest of the bible for perspective. Is that not logical?

4. Kings are traders??? Even your two reference verses don't match up. Kings had fornicated and were sad when she was destroyed.

Kings do send boats for trade, and how is it you thought they got rich? You seem to have a hard time connecting dots.

Merchants who traded with her were sad she was destroyed. Yes they both were sad, but other than that there is nothing saying they were the same people.

One assumes that the ships had a home country. But I can allow for a large part of the meaning regarding the kings to be that they were willingly corrupted. By what? You seem to think it must be Epsteinish intrigue and sexual promiscuity. I would think that adopting the corrupt practices (pushing lgbtqblahblah, wicked education, anti family teachings, super materialism, pornography, hollywood morals, etc) would be what was meant by corrupted. Sure we could include some secret spy sex set up business if you like, but I don't see that as the primary thing there.

 

[dad]

Notice that the 7th head of the beast is actually a 7th and 8th king. The 8th king in effect replacing the 7th:

"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen (#1-5), one is (#6), the other has not yet come (#7); but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast (the king?) who once was, and now is not (at time of writing), is an eighth king." Revelation 17:9-11​

The confusing part is the beast is not only the sum total of all of the the devil's kingdom's in history with it's various heads/kings, it's also the head that represents that sum total of the heads in existence at any one time in history.

The 8th king once was, but was not at the time John is writing this. Where in history past was this 8th king? Who is the 7th king that gets replaced by this 8th king? Has the 7th king appeared yet?

The AntiChrist will be possessed by Satan, and therefore can be viewed as Satan in the flesh. He was around before in all these kingdoms (heads). When the final government comes it will be the seventh head, and when the AntiChrist is revealed and gets total power and is possessed, maybe that is like the eighth (yet is of the seven)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If the angel of God wanted to say the Whore was commingling spiritual adultery it could have.

Just tell me, how does a king commit literal sexual adultery with a city? You have to spiritualize 'city', or make it a figure of something to make that connection (as you seem to be doing). This is how we KNOW that John is not talking about literal adultery but a spiritual/figurative adultery.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not that kings of the earth had sex with a city as you like to say (as if that is some kind of a deal breaker), but rather that the "city" of influence used actual sex as a means of influence over the kings. Epstein's island, kings of the earth travelling there for underage sex parties, and the blackmail that would naturally follow, would be a very acceptable reading of the text.

And all the other inhabitants of the world? What about them? Revelation 17:2

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don't go beyond the words of the book of Revelation. The vision illuminates it's self or does not require illumination.

If the angel of God wanted to say the Whore was commingling spiritual adultery it could have. Or if that is the correct way to read the verse then the angel could have offered up that explanation in later verses. Seeing as the angel did not clarify but rather used the same verbiage in later references. The angel doubled down on fornication instead of expanding the definition to include spiritual adultery.

Not that kings of the earth had sex with a city as you like to say (as if that is some kind of a deal breaker), but rather that the "city" of influence used actual sex as a means of influence over the kings. Epstein's island, kings of the earth travelling there for underage sex parties, and the blackmail that would naturally follow, would be a very acceptable reading of the text. If you go back to "sex with a city" then I have lost all hope of getting you to see how language works.

Don't you realize that you have to abandon your thinking that the 'Great City' is an actual country/city to defend this? You're saying the 'city' is a prostitution ring, while you say it's the city/state, America. No can do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The AntiChrist will be possessed by Satan, and therefore can be viewed as Satan in the flesh. He was around before in all these kingdoms (heads). When the final government comes it will be the seventh head, and when the AntiChrist is revealed and gets total power and is possessed, maybe that is like the eighth (yet is of the seven)

Where in history is the 8th king seen prior to the time of John, when during his time it 'was' but is 'not now'? This is what gives me pause to see the end time kingdom as a Roman kingdom.

 

[dad]

Where in history is the 8th king seen prior to the time of John, when during his time it 'was' but is 'not now'? This is what gives me pause to see the end time kingdom as a Roman kingdom.

Who was behind all these kingdoms? Satan. Who possesses the AntiChrist? So the same spirit is there. The 8th king is Satan in the flesh, possessing the evil leader, along with all his demons. The seventh kingdom (some sort of globalist empire coming) may also have had the same guy (antichrist) as a leader. So that would mean that he was of the seven yet also the eighth. The only part of that I find strange is how at the time of John it is said 'is not'. Perhaps that refers to how Rome was already defeated in the spirit, and maybe Satan had left the house?

 

[David Boyer]

Don't you realize that you have to abandon your thinking that the 'Great City' is an actual country/city to defend this? You're saying the 'city' is a prostitution ring, while you say it's the city/state, America. No can do.

If only you took the scriptures as literal as you do posts on a forum.
Yes can do.
It's called language. When Jesus calls Jerusalem "little chicks" to be gathered under His wings... is He referring to the buildings or the people.
Common usage of the language does allow for this interpretation.

 

[David Boyer]

And all the other inhabitants of the world? What about them? Revelation 17:2

Porn

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Porn

Okay, so you go with the 'city', the whore, being figurative and not a literal city/state but rather a prostitution ring of sorts.

What do you say is the connection between porn for the common man and actual sexual activity for the kings of the earth through this city/whore and economic prosperity and wealth?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The only part of that I find strange is how at the time of John it is said 'is not'. Perhaps that refers to how Rome was already defeated in the spirit, and maybe Satan had left the house?

That is the mystery. "The beast...once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss" in the future, (Revelation 17:8). I see the Abyss being opened in Revelation 9:1 when the 5th trumpet is sounded, the first of the three woes. But no mention of a beast there. Unless Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss is a reference to the beast.

 

[dad]

That is the mystery. "The beast...once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss" in the future, (Revelation 17:8). I see the Abyss being opened in Revelation 9:1 when the 5th trumpet is sounded, the first of the three woes. But no mention of a beast there. Unless Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss is a reference to the beast.

Satan is cast down to earth in that time along with his demons. I notice that a star falls to earth at that exact time, and it is referred to as 'he'! I would guess that he would have the key to the pit and also releases the demons down there. If so, then that works, because it is still the devil that possesses the evil leader. Perhaps the reason the AntiChrist is also called the beast is because he is possessed?

If this scenario is correct, then indeed the beast is of the seven and also the eighth

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Satan is cast down to earth in that time along with his demons. I notice that a star falls to earth at that exact time, and it is referred to as 'he'! I would guess that he would have the key to the pit and also releases the demons down there. If so, then that works, because it is still the devil that possesses the evil leader. Perhaps the reason the AntiChrist is also called the beast is because he is possessed?

If this scenario is correct, then indeed the beast is of the seven and also the eighth

So, should we be looking for the 7th king rather than the 8th king (the anti-christ) at this time in history?

 

[dad]

So, should we be looking for the 7th king rather than the 8th king (the anti-christ) at this time in history?

I think we are looking for the King of Kings at this time! But one assumes that that seventh head will have the AntiChrist in some sort of leadership, and then it changes somewhat in the end, and is called the eighth. Perhaps that refers to the last part of the Tribulation when the antichrist gets possessed. So possibly that seventh global power gets started, and later changes. After all that last part of the Tribulation is crazy. They are killing untold millions of people, sending armies to wipe out the Jews, blaspheming openly against Jesus, etc. When does Satan get cast to earth? Is it near the middle of the Trib? Or at the start? Or maybe we don't know. If it were in the latter part of that time, then one change would be in a basically direct rule of Satan and his demons via his evil human leader.

 

[Brakelite]

I don't deny the possibility of spiritual adultery. I say that the text doesn't say that it is.
You deny the possibility that the Whore is simply using sexual acts to control the kings of the earth.
I'm pointing out that in the news simple sexual acts were being used to control the kings of the earth.

Why are you arguing with me instead of the evidence that the text says sexual fornication is the mechanism used to control the kings?
Because you can't argue that unless you add to the words of Revelation (Rev 22:18) and not keep the words of Revelation (Rev 1:3).
By changing the word fornication to mean "spiritual unfaithfulness" instead of "sexual acts" you add words (gain the curse in 22:18) and fail to keep the words (loose a blessing in 1:3) of Revelation.

The reason why it isn't literal ecologist sexual acts is because Babylon the Great isn't a literal woman. Therefore a spiritual type of formication is not only warranted, but necessary.

 

[Brakelite]

But the Bible says the whore is a city. So what you're saying is 'city' is figurative language. The very interpretation of Revelation that you have been resisting.

I think America is only the whore of Babylon in that it is the center and hub of the world's system of capitalistic buying and selling. And so, perhaps, New York City is the city whose destruction represents the destruction of the system of capitalism it champions. But there are other financial hubs in the world that could qualify as the Great City that burns and is mourned by the business people of the world who grew rich from her.

Yes, London is the real central hub for the world's financiers.