Who Started That Lie?

[Mjh29]

God wants to know, are you like me?

Yes or no?

No offense, but either I am seriously missing some dialogue, or this guy doesnt make ANY sense.... anyone have a nonsensical speech translator handy?

 

[lforrest]

Remember to pray for his mental health. I think there is the possibility for real healing.

No offense, but either I am seriously missing some dialogue, or this guy doesnt make ANY sense.... anyone have a nonsensical speech translator handy?

He is relaying to us "God's" question.

 

[Mjh29]

Remember to pray for his mental health. I think there is the possibility for real healing.


He is relaying to us "God's" question.

Oh. I was genuinely confused. Thanks for the clarification. I will be sure to pray for Him. I didnt understand a word of what he was saying!

 

[H. Richard]

Hmmmm......So we are to decide which one is a lie and are choices are Scripture or the statement that you created in your own mind??

Was no one saved BEFORE the birth of Christ?

Curious Mary

***
That is a very good question but the answer is in the scriptures. Before Jesus shed His blood on the cross no ones sins were paid for. God overlooked their sins until Jesus paid for them on the cross. That is why there was a section in Hell for them called paradise. Jesus went into paradise to set them free and took them along with paradise into heaven. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross 'today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[bbyrd009]

Remember to pray for his mental health. I think there is the possibility for real healing.


He is relaying to us "God's" question.

this guy is known as "Bert" on AFF fwiw, if you have some contacts there

 

[bbyrd009]

***
That is a very good question but the answer is in the scriptures. Before Jesus shed His blood on the cross no ones sins were paid for. God overlooked their sins until Jesus paid for them on the cross. That is why there was a section in Hell for them called paradise. Jesus went into paradise to set them free and took them along with paradise into heaven. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross 'today you will be with me in paradise."

wow, so one liddle bit of truth turns into this big mush of lies, all so that you can maybe spend your immortality in Valhalla with Zeus.
i wish you the best in your search for death more abundantly ok HR

 

[ScottA]

Who are you to judge anything I do or say?

Ah, finally, a worthy question!

I am a saint, one of many, a child of God, made a king and a priest in His service to judge the world.

Now, what is this about a lie? Perhaps you could explain yourself a little better.

 

[Naomi25]

***
That is a very good question but the answer is in the scriptures. Before Jesus shed His blood on the cross no ones sins were paid for. God overlooked their sins until Jesus paid for them on the cross. That is why there was a section in Hell for them called paradise. Jesus went into paradise to set them free and took them along with paradise into heaven. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross 'today you will be with me in paradise."

I think I would have to disagree with you here, and think you may have misunderstood large sections of scripture in regards to how the OT saints were saved.


And he (Abraham) believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. -Genesis 15:6 See also Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works...Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. -James 2:18,21–26

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near... But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. -Hebrews 10:1, 12-14

These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:17

Basically, the bible teaches that the OT elect trusted in God for their salvation. They couldn't know how God would bring it to pass, but they knew of his promises. Even from the very beginning, in the Garden, he had made the promise to redeem mankind:

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.” -Genesis 3:15

This is called the "Protoevangelium", the first pronouncement of the gospel, the promise of God to save mankind. So the OT 'saints' knew of that promise, and put their trust in God...a forward trust...and that faith was "counted to them as righteousness".

As far as "Paradise" being a section of hell..? I don't know... There is some support, in the parable of the 'Rich man and Lazarus' to suggest that before Christ's death and resurrection that the 'afterlife' in general may have been separated into two different places, Hades and 'Abraham's bosom', with a large chasm between them. But I think this is a bit different from it all being "hell", with a tiny section of 'Paradise' carved out in the middle, isn't it?

 

[Enoch111]

But I think this is a bit different from it all being "hell", with a tiny section of 'Paradise' carved out in the middle, isn't it?

Too many confuse Abraham's Bosom (in Hades) with Paradise (always in Heaven since the Fall). When the punctuation of Luke 23:43 is revised, then this problem is resolved.

In the Stephanus TR there is no comma after σοι (to you or "unto thee").
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν λέγω σοι σήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Also, the Critical texts have omitted ὁ Ἰησοῦς (Jesus), another example on gratuitous omissions by modern versions

 

[Naomi25]

Too many confuse Abraham's Bosom (in Hades) with Paradise (always in Heaven since the Fall). When the punctuation of Luke 23:43 is revised, then this problem is resolved.

In the Stephanus TR there is no comma after σοι (to you or "unto thee").
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν λέγω σοι σήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Also, the Critical texts have omitted ὁ Ἰησοῦς (Jesus), another example on gratuitous omissions by modern versions

So, I could be advertising my extreme ignorance here...but how does a comma (or lack there of) change the location?
For any sort of punctuation to hold sway, wouldn’t the verse be needing to talk about the location of “paradise”? The presence or lack of punctuation would only hold bearing on the issue of “today”, would it not??

 

[H. Richard]

I think I would have to disagree with you here, and think you may have misunderstood large sections of scripture in regards to how the OT saints were saved.


And he (Abraham) believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. -Genesis 15:6 See also Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works...Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. -James 2:18,21–26

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near... But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. -Hebrews 10:1, 12-14

These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:17

Basically, the bible teaches that the OT elect trusted in God for their salvation. They couldn't know how God would bring it to pass, but they knew of his promises. Even from the very beginning, in the Garden, he had made the promise to redeem mankind:

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.” -Genesis 3:15

This is called the "Protoevangelium", the first pronouncement of the gospel, the promise of God to save mankind. So the OT 'saints' knew of that promise, and put their trust in God...a forward trust...and that faith was "counted to them as righteousness".

As far as "Paradise" being a section of hell..? I don't know... There is some support, in the parable of the 'Rich man and Lazarus' to suggest that before Christ's death and resurrection that the 'afterlife' in general may have been separated into two different places, Hades and 'Abraham's bosom', with a large chasm between them. But I think this is a bit different from it all being "hell", with a tiny section of 'Paradise' carved out in the middle, isn't it?

***

Sorry you disagree but the scriptures tell us that before Christ God pasted over the sins of the righteous.
Rom 3:24-25
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
NKJV

Their sins were not paid for before the cross. God just passed over them until Jesus paid for them.

That is the reason for them to be in a place called paradise. Remember that Jesus spent three days in the earth before He went into heaven. The scriptures also say that He (Jesus) set the captives free.

Since Jesus told the thief on the cross " today you will be with me in paradise and since Jesus spent 3 days in the earth, then paradise was in the earth.

 

[Enoch111]

The presence or lack of punctuation would only hold bearing on the issue of “today”, would it not??

That's right. The way it is punctuated in most English translation, it implies that both Jesus and that thief went to Paradise on that same day. However, according to Scripture they both went to Hades (to the region of the righteous dead) on that day, and it was only after three day and three nights that Christ and all the OT saints (plus this man) went to Paradise in Heaven.

 

[Helen]

Why does it matter "where" Paradise is??

Surely we know that it is a Place in God Himself...not a place to travel to.

" In the presence of the Lord is fullness of Joy. "

 

[Acolyte]

Unless you can out pray Jesus
you are wasting your time.

But go for it.

Oh my... are you saying you are the messiah? Surely not for your souls sake.

 

[bbyrd009]

he cannot hear you btw, you will never have a conversation with him, even if it maybe appears like you are sometimes. Like a lot of ppl here, only he has gone full-on oracle now i guess

Their sins were not paid for before the cross. God just passed over them until Jesus paid for them.

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness,
huh HR. God needed Jesus to pay for our sins, didn't He
and that we happen to be preoccupied and consumed with placing blame is strictly a coincidence

 

[bbyrd009]

Their sins were not paid for before the cross. God just passed over them until Jesus paid for them.

God forgave David, we were just talking about this. Not sure how that fits with your pov though

 

[Enoch111]

Surely we know that it is a Place in God Himself...not a place to travel to.

Well, as a matter of fact it is a place to travel to. Believe it.

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor 12:4)

No Paradise is NOT in God (that would be Pantheism). It is God who is IN Paradise (that is Christianity).

How in the world are Christians becoming so confused about fundamental truths?

 

[bbyrd009]

How in the world are Christians becoming so confused about fundamental truths?

my guess would be by taking parables meant to teach a lesson about one specific thing like say boasting way too literally
wadr

 

[Naomi25]

***

Sorry you disagree but the scriptures tell us that before Christ God pasted over the sins of the righteous.
Rom 3:24-25
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
NKJV

Their sins were not paid for before the cross. God just passed over them until Jesus paid for them.

But why did God pass over their sins? He passes over our sins as well, doesn't he? Why does he do that? Because we have put our faith in Christ Jesus. In the OT, as we are told, the saints "trusted God" and it was counted to them as righteousness. We look back in trust, placing our faith in what we have been graced to have been given knowledge about. The people in the OT couldn't know what, exactly God had planned, but they knew he had promised someone to come and save mankind. That is still something they could of, and did, place their faith in, their trust in. And that is why God passed over their sins. They placed their trust and faith in God.

That is the reason for them to be in a place called paradise. Remember that Jesus spent three days in the earth before He went into heaven. The scriptures also say that He (Jesus) set the captives free.

Since Jesus told the thief on the cross " today you will be with me in paradise and since Jesus spent 3 days in the earth, then paradise was in the earth.

There are those who, like you, think that, yes, Jesus did go 'in the ground', but there are also those who see alternative explanations for these verses. I haven't really made up my mind either way, and really don't feel the need to in any great way. You could be right, you might not be. I suppose I struggle seeing "Paradise" as a curtained off section of hell, or wherever. Seems a little far fetched. But, like I said, I'm not going to enter into a grand debate over it.

 

[Naomi25]

That's right. The way it is punctuated in most English translation, it implies that both Jesus and that thief went to Paradise on that same day. However, according to Scripture they both went to Hades (to the region of the righteous dead) on that day, and it was only after three day and three nights that Christ and all the OT saints (plus this man) went to Paradise in Heaven.

Hang on...sorry. Where does it say they went to Hades? The passage mentions Paradise, but I don't see Hades there.

I understand that perhaps the removal of a comma could change the meaning of the word "today" and when it was meant to be understood, but I'm not sure that follows logically. First, I'm not sure greek language used commas anyway, so it would be almost moot. Second, why would Jesus say to the thief, "surely I say to you right now,..." That's the same as saying "I am speaking to you right now"...which is sort of obvious. The comma in the english version is placed there, I suspect, because to leave it out makes the text a little non-nonsensical.
Consider: Is it more likely that Jesus is using redundant language and saying "I say to you right now, we will be in Paradise" (in three days, although we die now).
Or "I say to you, today we will be in Paradise" (as they were moments away from death).