Who Started That Lie?

[Enoch111]

Hang on...sorry. Where does it say they went to Hades? The passage mentions Paradise, but I don't see Hades there.

Just because you don't see Hades there does not mean that it is not in Scripture. We simply need to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

1. David prophesied about Christ being in Sheol/Hades (briefly) about 1,000 years before it happened.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Ps 16:10)

2. Christ prophesied that He would be in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights (Hades being located in "the lower parts of the earth" or "the heart of the earth")
For as Jonas [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40).

3. Peter applied Ps 16:10 to Christ being in Hades, as well as the resurrection of Christ after Hades.
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, [HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, [HADES] neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:27,31,32).

Peter says "his soul was not left in hell [HADES]" which plainly tells us that the day Christ died, His body was placed in the tomb, but His soul and spirit went to Hades. Therefore the redeemed thief also accompanied Him to Hades, for three days and three nights. However, in His divine foreknowledge, He was already in Paradise at the time of His death.

Paradise is in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven. And that is where Christ took all the OT saints + this thief AFTER His resurrection.

 

[Naomi25]

Just because you don't see Hades there does not mean that it is not in Scripture. We simply need to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

1. David prophesied about Christ being in Sheol/Hades (briefly) about 1,000 years before it happened.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Ps 16:10)

2. Christ prophesied that He would be in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights (Hades being located in "the lower parts of the earth" or "the heart of the earth")
For as Jonas [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40).

3. Peter applied Ps 16:10 to Christ being in Hades, as well as the resurrection of Christ after Hades.
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, [HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, [HADES] neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:27,31,32).

Peter says "his soul was not left in hell [HADES]" which plainly tells us that the day Christ died, His body was placed in the tomb, but His soul and spirit went to Hades. Therefore the redeemed thief also accompanied Him to Hades, for three days and three nights. However, in His divine foreknowledge, He was already in Paradise at the time of His death.

Paradise is in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven. And that is where Christ took all the OT saints + this thief AFTER His resurrection.

This is interesting, and you've put it together well, thank you. But I'm not sure I'm fully convinced. I'll tell you why: What David said, and how Peter and Paul interpreted it, can be seen easily as figurative. And I'm not dismissing it 'pie in the sky,' but statements that are still resoundingly true don't have to be absolutely detailed down to the smallest detail. So, saying about Jesus, "God will not leave him in hell, or allow him to rot" is absolutely true, is it not? But it doesn't necessarily discount that the way he doesn't abandon Christ to hell is to not send him there in the first place, for example.
We see other such usages of language in scripture; when Paul and Christ says that believers fall 'asleep' when they die. They're not really asleep, but because, for a believer, their bodies will be resurrected again, it is very much like they are just 'sleeping' for a time...soon they will awake.
We can say the same thing with Christ being "in the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. This could simply be figurative for 'in the tomb' or 'buried'. There is no other allusions about where Christ is or what he is doing near the Matt 12:40 passage, so nothing to support or deny which interpretation we should take.
So...if we think that David is just praising God for the miracle of Christ's resurrection...the fact that he would become the firstfruits that would usher in the wonder of our own resurrections when the time comes...and we think that the Matt passage is also a figure of speech...and we take Christ's words to the thief on the cross at face value, then we could legitimately question if Jesus went to Hades as soon as he died. I mean...wasn't the point of the thief's confession on the cross that he had repented? And Jesus was telling him that he would be going with him, upon their deaths, to a better place?

I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation here, but I'm saying it is one, and when held against the opaqueness of this whole issue, I'm just...well...left unwilling to jump to conclusions. But, again, your post was well done and I'm chewing on it, so thanks.

 

[bbyrd009]

statements that are still resoundingly true don't have to be absolutely detailed down to the smallest detail.

they do as far as determinists are concerned i guess

 

[H. Richard]

But why did God pass over their sins? He passes over our sins as well, doesn't he? Why does he do that? Because we have put our faith in Christ Jesus..

NO! God does not need to """PASS OVER OUR SINS"" since they have already been paid for.

I answered this question but I see you ignored it. NO ONE GOES TO GOD"S HEAVEN UNTIL THEIR SINS ARE PAID FOR, PERIOD.

Man's sins were not paid for until Jesus shed His blood on the cross to pay for them. Therefore it was necessary for God to provide a place for them until Jesus paid for their sins. It is that simple. Believe it or not I don't care.

 

[Naomi25]

NO! God does not need to """PASS OVER OUR SINS"" since they have already been paid for.

I answered this question but I see you ignored it. NO ONE GOES TO GOD"S HEAVEN UNTIL THEIR SINS ARE PAID FOR, PERIOD.

Man's sins were not paid for until Jesus shed His blood on the cross to pay for them. Therefore it was necessary for God to provide a place for them until Jesus paid for their sins. It is that simple. Believe it or not I don't care.

Hey, take a breath! I think, perhaps you are mistaking what I am trying to say. So...let me try and clarify.

I am not disagreeing with the idea of there being a separate place for the OT saints to have resided before Christ "paid" for their sins. I was perhaps a little unsure if I could see that place being in hell (not a place of torment, but still the same locality), but still, a place that was not "heaven", okay?

My point was, the OT saints were not, could not be, saved only by following the mosaic law. If that were possible, Christ would not have needed to come, yes? We know, for example, with Abraham, that when he obeyed God's command to sacrifice Isaac, that he did, but Isaac was spared. That was just one example of Abraham's trust, or faith, in God. He knew of God's promise to save mankind through a future Savior, through his own bloodline. This trust, this faithfulness, was credited to him as righteousness. It still came down to faith in God.
So yeah, when Abraham, and all those others who had faith in God in the OT died, they didn't go to hell, but, most likely to a place to wait for that faith that they had, to come to fruition. For Christ.

Now...when I said that "God passes over our sins", again, I think you have misunderstood me. I know full well that Christ has paid for all our sins in that once for all sacrifice on the cross. What I meant was that every time you or I stumble in sin, God passes over that, because in Christ it's not there.

Hope that has helped clear it up a bit.

 

[H. Richard]

Hey, take a breath! I think, perhaps you are mistaking what I am trying to say. So...let me try and clarify.

I am not disagreeing with the idea of there being a separate place for the OT saints to have resided before Christ "paid" for their sins. I was perhaps a little unsure if I could see that place being in hell (not a place of torment, but still the same locality), but still, a place that was not "heaven", okay?

My point was, the OT saints were not, could not be, saved only by following the mosaic law. If that were possible, Christ would not have needed to come, yes? We know, for example, with Abraham, that when he obeyed God's command to sacrifice Isaac, that he did, but Isaac was spared. That was just one example of Abraham's trust, or faith, in God. He knew of God's promise to save mankind through a future Savior, through his own bloodline. This trust, this faithfulness, was credited to him as righteousness. It still came down to faith in God.
So yeah, when Abraham, and all those others who had faith in God in the OT died, they didn't go to hell, but, most likely to a place to wait for that faith that they had, to come to fruition. For Christ.

Now...when I said that "God passes over our sins", again, I think you have misunderstood me. I know full well that Christ has paid for all our sins in that once for all sacrifice on the cross. What I meant was that every time you or I stumble in sin, God passes over that, because in Christ it's not there.

Hope that has helped clear it up a bit.

***
Yes it did.

 

[Enoch111]

So yeah, when Abraham, and all those others who had faith in God in the OT died, they didn't go to hell, but, most likely to a place to wait for that faith that they had, to come to fruition. For Christ.

It is quite unfortunate that Hades (Sheol) was translated as "hell", but so was Gehenna (the Lake of Fire), which is the true Hell (created for the devil and his angels).

All the OT saints (souls and spirits) went to a separate section of Sheol/Hades called "Abraham's Bosom" (in the lower parts of the earth). The narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable but a description of the afterlife by none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ was in Hades for three days and three nights after His crucifixion and before His resurrection. He proclaimed (translated as "preached") His victory on the cross to "the spirits in prison". And after His resurrection He took all these saints to the New Jerusalem (in Heaven). Since His resurrection they are deemed to be "the spirits of just men made perfect".

HEBREWS 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Naomi25]

It is quite unfortunate that Hades (Sheol) was translated as "hell", but so was Gehenna (the Lake of Fire), which is the true Hell (created for the devil and his angels).

All the OT saints (souls and spirits) went to a separate section of Sheol/Hades called "Abraham's Bosom" (in the lower parts of the earth). The narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable but a description of the afterlife by none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ was in Hades for three days and three nights after His crucifixion and before His resurrection. He proclaimed (translated as "preached") His victory on the cross to "the spirits in prison". And after His resurrection He took all these saints to the New Jerusalem (in Heaven). Since His resurrection they are deemed to be "the spirits of just men made perfect".

HEBREWS 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

You could very well be right! I have certainly heard it taught this way, just as I have heard the notion dismissed. The idea of the 'parable' of Lazarus and the rich man not really being a parable, but fact, has the sound of truth to me...it sounds good. I suppose all I'm saying is that I've not done a decent amount of digging/reading on the issue. And until I've done that, I would feel irresponsible agreeing to one side or the other just because it sounds good. These sorts of things should matter a little more than that, don't you think?

 

[st3712]

1. Scripture cannot be a lie. Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God.

2. Exactly what are you trying to prove? There are two conditions for salvation.

If salvation is a gift from God then God chooses to whom He gives it too.

How can there be any conditions on salvation if it is a gift?

What are the 2 conditions of salvation?

 

[st3712]

Because you sound like a rude, arrogant, know-it-all.

Tell us what God thinks of you.
I would greatly like to hear what you have to say about it.

 

[st3712]

Members of this Forum Site.
We have every right "In Christ" to judge the spirit of the poster on here.

Did Christ forgive you of all your past, present and future sins?

 

[st3712]

Scripture. Which do you choose?

Was no one saved BEFORE the birth of Christ?

Curious Mary

Why yes there were several that were saved before the birth of Christ
and ascended into heaven.

Elijah being one of them.

 

[st3712]

Yes, it will count AFTER you repent and ask for forgiveness....like Paul did.

Don't you have to repent in Spirit and truth to be forgiven of your sins?

Or will lip service be sufficient enough for God?

 

[st3712]

Christians have a duty and obligation to judge ALL THINGS. And hold fast to only that which is good.

Christians are judged by their own words and judgement that they measure out.

So is everyone else on earth.

Therefore you statement is one of stupidity.

 

[st3712]

Yes , they come and they go...or more often ...they are "helped" out of the door....
Thanks Nancy, I am feeling well again. Thank you for all your prayers. Hope your feet are doing well now and all healed up.

Some day soon
you are going to answer by the execution of judgement upon you
for all the people you have bothered that came to this forum and never did nothing to you.

All the people to which you slandered
and spoke evil to without any cause whatsoever
and upon that never did anything to you
in fact they did not even know you.

God told me your soon to be punished for it.

That day is going to come upon you very soon.

 

[st3712]

Then you haven't been forgiven for as much.

How would y

They are not required to answer you either. Consider the authority you have to interrogate, or rather that you have none. If you truely want an answer approach with humility and you may be graced with a reply. But it appears the only thing you care about is your agenda, and so you have posed leading questions.

And it also sounds like you have a false belief about Paul, and no doubt reject any of the scriptures written through him.

Well bible teacher
it looks like you are yet
wrong again.

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready always to give an answer to every man
that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in
you with meekness and fear:

I am starting to think that there is
something

FAKE

about you.

 

[st3712]

Ah, finally, a worthy question!

I am a saint, one of many, a child of God, made a king and a priest in His service to judge the world.

lol

lol

lol

Now that is what I call a WHOPPER.

 

[st3712]

I did not see anyone ever answer this question.
Maybe I just missed it
here I will post it again
and see if any here on the forum
will answer the question or run from it.

WHICH ONE IS THE LIE?

You pick:

A.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

B.
All that are saved, are saved by God through Jesus Christ.
This was established and confirmed before any of them were born in the flesh.
That would require nothing from the receiver other than going through
the process of being born on earth and all that it curtails.

 

[ScottA]

lol

lol

lol

Now that is what I call a WHOPPER.

A savory flame-grilled beef burger topped with juicy tomatoes, fresh lettuce, creamy mayonnaise, ketchup, crunchy pickles, and sliced white onions on a soft sesame seed bun?

"Wake up with the King!"

 

[Heart2Soul]

WHICH ONE IS THE LIE?

You pick:

A.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

B.
All that are saved, are saved by God through Jesus Christ.
This was established and confirmed before any of them were born in the flesh.
That would require nothing from the receiver other than going through
the process of being born on earth and all that it curtails.

The first one is scripture the second one is your interpretation of what salvation entails...so the second would require a scripture as well so as to compare apples to apples.
Comparing scripture to your interpretation only...well scripture wins and your interpretation is not valid without scripture to back it up.