Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[Earburner]

The Bible teaches that the land of Israel was promised to Jacob and his descendants forever and that the land of Israel will be the center of Gods kingdom on earth.​

Afflicted with anti-Semitism the traditional churches developed “Replacement Theology.” Some early church theologians wrongly concluded that Israel as a people was eternally rejected by God for having rejected Jesus. The claim is that the church is now spiritual Israel and, as such, has replaced natural Israel.
The King James Version of the Bible is filled with examples where promises to natural Israel are applied to the Christian Church through arbitrary chapter headings. For example, above Isaiah 59 is added a heading, “The sins of the Jews.” Yet in the very next chapter, Isaiah 60, the chapter heading added is “Glory of the Church.”

God promised the Land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants forever. To renege on this agreement would make God a liar. Yet how do we explain that Abraham was never given the land?

"14. And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15. For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. - Gen 13:14-17 (KJV)​

​

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him … 7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. - Gen 17:1-8 (KJV)​

These verses teach that God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants forever. That’s why we call it the Land of Promise. If orthodox Christian thinking were correct, we should rename it the Land of Broken Promise.

Notice how verse 7 of Gen. 17 speaks of “the land wherein thou art a stranger.”

Notice also… Acts 7:5 "And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child." (KJV)

Abraham died as a stranger in the land, without receiving an inheritance in it. This proves Abraham can’t be in heaven. He’ll be resurrected on earth in God’s kingdom to receive this inheritance with his descendants.

So then the repentant thief on the cross is in paradise with Jesus, but Abraham is not?
Apparently you have not yet understood Malachi 3:16, Eph. 4:9 and Rev. 6:9-11.

 

[Earburner]

John tells us in Revelation 21:1 'Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

I would say the promised land will be the whole earth and that the land masses divided by water we know of today will not be so.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth.

Since Jesus is the firstborn from the dead into immortality, having the ability to be both physically human and Spirit at will, what "promise land" did He inherit, in which God the Father now permanently dwells?
Edited:
Could it be that most all here are not understanding where exactly God the Father desires to dwell?

 

[face2face]

When does "all" not mean "all"? When does "all the families" mean all the people?

When does "all the nations" mean all the people in them?

Then we have to understand what "Israel" is spoken about here....it should have been fleshly Israel, but as a nation born dedicated to YHWH, they failed to honor their covenant with him....so God kept them in existence until his promise to Abraham was fulfilled and when they executed his son as a blasphemer, God chose a new nation to call "Israel"....a nation that would be proud to bear his name, not ones who lost it due to superstition, not because they were never commanded not to utter it.

What did God tell Moses about his name?
Exodus 3:13-15....from the Jewish Tanakh.....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

The "Lord God" is "יְהֹוָ֞ה".

Matt 21:42-45...
"Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling on this stone will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls, it will crush him.
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his illustrations, they knew that he was speaking about them."

Seems plain enough....the stone that the builders rejected was Jesus and because of this rejection, the Kingdom was taken away from the Jews and given to a new nation...."the Israel of God". (Gal 6:16)

Peter identified this new nation...."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."
This "people" were made up of the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus the Messiah. (Gal 6:16) God did not change his covenant with Israel....he just changed what it meant to be "Israel"....not fleshly Israel but spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6-8...
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring."

Again, plain enough.....fleshly Israel failed, but God did not.....Israel remains, but it isn't those who dwell in a land overrun by war, corrupt politics and violence. Once again, natural Israel has allied herself with nations whose worship she despises....just like her forefathers. The leopard did not change its spots.....so God chose another nation to substitute for her....one who would produce the right fruitage, which Israel never did.
The devil has people looking at natural Israel in a former "holy land" when it is no longer God's nation, and the land is not remotely "holy" anymore. Only those from that nation who accept Christ will be saved. The real Promised Land is the paradise earth which we are awaiting.

That's right, but who are God's people...? The scriptures tell us, but it seems that you are stuck with old knowledge, not realizing what God's word really says about who that real nation of Israel truly is.

The JW's are not privy to the Mystery spoken of by Paul.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Romans 11:25

Because they abandon the OT prophecies, which their forefathers knew and understood, they cannot speak to the time after the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Impossible.

F2F

 

[face2face]

“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

This simply means that mankind will have upwards of 100 years to make the adequate changes in their characters to conform to Kingdom rule. If after living in the Kingdom rule for 100 years, having made no changes, during the time that Satan and his minions have been imprisoned, that they continue to live a sinful life , they will be put to death,

Yes, people will still receive the wages of sin in the Kingdom age. It's a Kingdom which Christ will rule over mortal subjects. Although Isaiah 65:20 does indicate that those who die at the age of a hundred will be considered children, for the average life span will be much longer than that. I tend to thinks its due to sin being restrained in the earth but certainly death will be occurring.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So then the repentant thief on the cross is in paradise with Jesus, but Abraham is not?
Apparently you have not yet understood Malachi 3:16, Eph. 4:9 and Rev. 6:9-11.

I think that first of all we need to understand that “paradise” is not heaven. The thief who died alongside Jesus was not promised heaven, but that he will receive an earthly resurrection to a restored earthly paradise. He will not be a ruler in heaven, but he will be raised as an earthly subject of that kingdom, like all those who have died and paid sin’s wages. (John 5:28-29)

None of those who died before Jesus, went to heaven because he had only chosen the 12 who would form the foundations of his kingdom, three and half years before.....these are the ones whom his Father “elected” to rule with him in heaven. Their numbers would be added to by the work Jesus assigned to all of his disciples back then (Matt28:19-20)......these were to be resurrected “first” (Rev 20:6)

I like to examine scripture carefully because a cursory reading with the wrong premise can lead us in a completely wrong direction.

Mal 3:16....”At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.”

What is Malachi telling us here? That there would be those who would gather together to share mutual faith and encouragement in harmony with each other (Heb 10:24-25) in the reverent “fear of Jehovah”. They would do this because they all serve the same God without dissent or disagreement. (1 Cor 1:10) These are remembered by Jehovah, figuratively having their names recorded in his “book of remembrance”.

Who are those “meditating on his name”? Not the disunited rabble that is Christendom who do not even acknowledge that God has a name. (Psalm 83:18 KJV) What did God tell Israel about his name? If we read Exodus 3:15 in the Jewish Tanakh, we see the divine name in the written Hebrew text, but not in the English translation. What a travesty to substitute a mere title for the most important and illustrious name in existence! Translating God’s name into the accepted English form does not in any way detract from its meaning, any more than translating Jesus’ name into English does.

What about Eph 4:8-10 (in context)...”For it says: “When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.” 9 Now what does the expression “he ascended” mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? 10 The very one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might give fullness to all things.”

So Jesus has lived in both realms. He knows what it means to be human, to live in the “lower regions”, in the earthly realm of God’s creation......and when he returned to heaven, it is described as being “far above all the heavens” or what humans refer to as “the heavens”......the material universe. So where is “heaven”? Certainly nowhere that mere humans can go. It is a spiritual realm inhabited by spirit beings. Those who will rule with Christ in heaven have to be raised with spirit bodies in order to live there....”born again” with a new bodily form.

And Rev 6:9-11...” When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.”

These “souls” described here are not spirits. “Souls” in the Bible are never disembodied spirits. A “soul” is a living, breathing creature, both humans and animals being described as “souls” who have the same experience of death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) So the highly symbolic book of Revelation should not be misunderstood in its figurative language.

Those “souls” are the lives of those martyred for their faith.....for justice to be served, their deaths must be avenged and the perpetrators held to account. Their cry is ‘how long will those who persecute and murder your servants go unpunished?’ They are told to be patient, and to “rest a little while longer”, because God has not fulfilled his purpose yet....and other martyrs will follow.

The fact that they are told to “rest a little while longer” indicates that they have not been in anguish all those centuries, consciously sitting under the alter, complaining about injustice.
Just as ‘Abel’s blood was crying out to Jehovah for justice’, (Gen 4:10) didn’t mean it was doing so literally.
So those martyred for their faith did not go unnoticed by the one for whom they gave their life, as Jesus did.
Justice will be served.

There is so much misinterpretation and misunderstanding about what the Bible teaches....but the very fact that Jesus separates the “sheep” from the “goats” in the coming judgment, tells us that the “sheep” have accepted the truth, whereas the “goats” have taken a different path. (Matt 7:13-14)

God will not correct us, but he allows us to make our own choices about who he is, what his purpose is, and what role Jesus plays in that scenario. Hearts are what God reads, not just minds. The mind gives the heart permission to act on what it wants to believe.......but Jehovah tells us that it can be a treacherous traitor. (Jeremiah 17:9)
We cannot alter the truth by what we choose to believe....

 

[RR144]

So then the repentant thief on the cross is in paradise with Jesus, but Abraham is not?

No, both the repentant thief AND Abraham are in sheol, the grave, awaiting the resurrection

Apparently you have not yet understood Malachi 3:16,

Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name.​

Malachi gave this advice to his contemporaries, and probably few responded to get that individual blessing. Prophetically speaking, this is advice for the Holy Remnant class, who will be spared but in a different way than the Christian is spared. As God’s beloved Son, Jesus Christ faithfully served his Father, yet he died on the Cross. The question, therefore, is a study in itself. How did God “spare” Jesus? God gave him sustaining grace for that experience and for his faithfulness greatly rewarded him with the number two position in the universe for eternity. Thus the sparing of one as a new creature is different from the sparing of one from the standpoint of the old nature. When this prophecy is explained from the natural standpoint, it pertains to the Holy Remnant of Israel at this end of the age. When the prophecy is applied spiritually, the thought is that faithful Christians are blessed as new creatures, but they are not spared sickness, accidents, persecution, trouble, etc. Two proof texts that verse 16 can apply to the Holy Remnant in regard to a “book of remembrance” being written are the following.

1. “At that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book” (Dan. 12:1).
2. “And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem” (Isa. 4:3).

For the Christian, the spiritual application is very important. Hebrews 10:25,26 tells us not to forsake the “assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the [evil] day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” In other words, there is a danger of Second Death if we cut ourselves off exclusively from fellowship. We are to look for spirituality and help through fellowship with others—although it is permissible to exercise some discrimination in our choices.

Eph. 4:9

Let's look at the context of this verse 9

Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.​

Although Jesus ascended up on high, he was not absent from his Church. Just as Paul was physically absent from Ephesus, being under house arrest in Rome, but was writing a letter giving counsel and advice, so Jesus at his First Advent went into death and then was raised and ascended up on high, from where he counsels and assists his Church by giving apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to minister to their needs in his absence. These “gifts” have been given, and the Apostle Paul was subtly suggesting that he was one of these “gifts.” Stated another way, this very epistle was one of those gifts being channeled to the Ephesians. Paul made this point in a gentle and tactful manner. The objective of these ministries (and specifically Paul’s ministry) was to perfect the Church to achieve the pyramidal effect spoken of earlier (Eph. 1:10). All things will be gathered under Christ, who is under God. Paul’s saying that Jesus “ascended up far above all heavens” is an interesting expression. God dwells in “the heaven of heavens [plural]” (Deut. 10:14; 2 Chron. 6:18; Neh. 6:9). In addition to earth’s atmosphere, there are other universes and planes of being, but God resides in His heaven, far above all the others. Psalm 148:4 reads, “Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.” Verse 11 lists the categories in a sequence of descending importance: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. There were only 12 “apostles” (Rev. 21:14). “Evangelists,” are public expounders, having the ability to espouse the cause of Christ in a public manner. Being adept at public oration, these have far-reaching ministries that embrace other locales. They travel around and thus have more than just a local ministry with private witnessing. Philip was an evangelist and possibly also Apollos (Acts 21:8).

and Rev. 6:9-11.

"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer."​

These verses, describing the souls of those under the altar who were crying with a loud voice for the avenging of their shed blood, their death, clearly address the first incidence of murder recorded in the Old Testament (Genesis 4:3-11). In fact, a careful scrutiny of the Genesis account sheds considerable light upon the significance of the lesson embodied in the fifth seal. Back there Cain slew Abel; but here in the Apocalypse the analogy and enigma being presented are of a persecuting Church inflicting punishment upon a persecuted Church. In the distant past, the first-born Cain was moved with jealousy and envy against innocent Abel; in the Revelation account, the time-honored nominal Church is stirred with anger against what it considers to be a late-coming, dissident (though in reality a peace-loving) membership.

You'll notice that the voice and the blood of verse 10 bear a striking similarity to the voice and blood of Genesis 4:10. This voice is not to be taken literally as the anguished cry of the deceased is discerned in that both symbols (the voice and the blood) have a spiritual significance depicting retributory justice—i.e., justice which demands satisfaction and punitive judgment for a violation of life-rights. The blood at the bottom of the altar indicates a martyred class. Those who faithfully sealed their testimony in blood were in line to receive the crown of life.

The reward to be given to faithful Christians previously slain (by those in nominal churchianity possessing the murderous spirit of Cain) is here designated. The Abel class is assured that white vindication robes, are secured to all “slain for the word of God,” even to “every one of them” maintaining their integrity and sealing their testimony in “blood”—in death (verses 9 to 11a). All such will receive a better resurrection to life (Mark 8:35,36; Luke 9:24,25) and inherit a white (pure) nature in the spirit realm.

 

[RR144]

View attachment 33605

Yes, people will still receive the wages of sin in the Kingdom age. It's a Kingdom which Christ will rule over mortal subjects. Although Isaiah 65:20 does indicate that those who die at the age of a hundred will be considered children, for the average life span will be much longer than that. I tend to thinks its due to sin being restrained in the earth but certainly death will be occurring.

Hmmm ... isn't that what I said?

 

[RR144]

When does "all" not mean "all"? When does "all the families" mean all the people?

When does "all the nations" mean all the people in them?

What part of ALL don't you understand Jane???

Then we have to understand what "Israel" is spoken about here....it should have been fleshly Israel, but as a nation born dedicated to YHWH, they failed to honor their covenant with him....so God kept them in existence until his promise to Abraham was fulfilled and when they executed his son as a blasphemer, God chose a new nation to call "Israel"....a nation that would be proud to bear his name, not ones who lost it due to superstition, not because they were never commanded not to utter it.

Not quite. I think you'll agree that had the Nation od Israel as a whole had accepted Jesus as their Messiah, both the Kingdom on earth and the Kingdom of heaven would have been ruled by Jews. This is seen in YHWH's promise to Abraham in Genesis 22:17

"blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies."

The "Stars" mentioned here represents the heavenly seed, the 144,000. The "Sand" represents the earthly seed. The only promise broken was the heavenly seed.

Matt 21:42-45...
"Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling on this stone will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls, it will crush him.
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his illustrations, they knew that he was speaking about them."

Seems plain enough....the stone that the builders rejected was Jesus and because of this rejection, the Kingdom was taken away from the Jews and given to a new nation...."the Israel of God". (Gal 6:16)

Peter identified this new nation...."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."
This "people" were made up of the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus the Messiah. (Gal 6:16) God did not change his covenant with Israel....he just changed what it meant to be "Israel"....not fleshly Israel but spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6-8...
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring."

Again, plain enough.....fleshly Israel failed, but God did not.....Israel remains, but it isn't those who dwell in a land overrun by war, corrupt politics and violence. Once again, natural Israel has allied herself with nations whose worship she despises....just like her forefathers. The leopard did not change its spots.....so God chose another nation to substitute for her....one who would produce the right fruitage, which Israel never did.
The devil has people looking at natural Israel in a former "holy land" when it is no longer God's nation, and the land is not remotely "holy" anymore. Only those from that nation who accept Christ will be saved. The real Promised Land is the paradise earth which we are awaiting.

That's right, but who are God's people...? The scriptures tell us, but it seems that you are stuck with old knowledge, not realizing what God's word really says about who that real nation of Israel truly is.

Thanks for your thoughts Jane.

Bible Students preach the very scriptures you are quoting. We agree with you that the nation of Israel was punished and that only a remnant was saved. We see that Jerusalem was destroyed and only a remnant became Christian and fled from the Roman armies (thereby avoiding destruction with the nation). However, there are other scriptures which clearly show that this punishment is temporary and that natural Israel (“the sands of the seashore”) will be blessed, even if the blessing of the anointed prospective bride of Christ will be much greater (“the stars of heaven”).

Jesus clearly indicated that the period of Gentile domination of Israel would eventually end.

Luke 21:24 (ASV), “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”​

​

Romans 11:25-29 is so beautiful. It shows that Israel was “blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in,” that is until the 144,000 are complete. And then the blindness and their sins will be removed (verse 27). Verse 28 shows this that they are enemies for the sake of the Anointed, but beloved for the sake of the fathers – God still keeps them in His plan and will help them.​

​

Romans 11:28 says, ” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers”​

How can Romans 11:28 be speaking of anything other than the nation of Israel, when it specifically says:

1. They are enemies for the Gospel’s sake
2. They are beloved for the father’s sake

Are Christians (Jehovah’s Witnesses) enemies for the Gospels sake? I should hope not. So this group of enemies is natural Israel who are “beloved for the fathers’ sake.”

Rom 11:29 tells us that, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” What are the gifts and calling of God to the natural nation of Israel that are irrevocable?
* God will bless all the nations of the world through them (Gen 12:3)
* They will own the land of Israel forever (Gen 13:15)
* They will eventually be planted in their land and never again plucked up out of it (Amos 9:15)

Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV “This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar — the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord.

Jane – The eight hundred pound Gorilla in the room is that over 50% of the world’s Jewish population is not in Israel, a nation since 1948. Sometimes we wonder how the Jews rejected Jesus in spite of the clear miracles he performed in their midst. Here we have the miracle of the children of Abraham returning to the land promised to him forever. If God cast Israel off forever, have these people outsmarted Jehovah and re-established their nation against His will?

 

[face2face]

Hmmm ... isn't that what I said?

If you go back you were questioning whether people would die in the Kingdom age. I guess we have determined there will be.

 

[face2face]

Jane – The eight hundred pound Gorilla in the room is that over 50% of the world’s Jewish population is not in Israel, a nation since 1948. Sometimes we wonder how the Jews rejected Jesus in spite of the clear miracles he performed in their midst. Here we have the miracle of the children of Abraham returning to the land promised to him forever. If God cast Israel off forever, have these people outsmarted Jehovah and re-established their nation against His will?

For @Aunty Jane also!

And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly. Lev. 26:44.

Jane's language has this casting them off and abhoring the natural branches as something approved of Yahweh. Truth is they do not know Him or His longsuffering to bring about His purpose.

The Apostle Paul understood the promises of God more than most, certainly more than the passionate JW.

God hath not cast away has people. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be? Rom. 11:2, 15, 28.

As I've already stated who can speak to this subject if one believes Yahweh has fully cast away His people?

And if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then will I cast away the seed of Jacob. Jer. 33:25, 26.

Are we to assume the JW believes Yahweh did not appoint the ordinances of Heaven and Earth?

I will heal their backsliding. For mine anger is turned away from him. Jer 3:22,

I could put up so many of His promises, but in the end if your elders decide to change their long held beliefs concerning the reestablishment of natural Israel under the New Covenant for this casting off and abhorring belief, what can be done for them?

I mean, theses are just a few of His Promises, what of all the Prophecies concerning their future?

Ultimately the JW must say, "God doesn't mean what He says" - I've heard that said before in early Genesis

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

What part of ALL don't you understand Jane???

The part in Luke 21 where Jesus has finished his prophesy on the end times and it says in conclusion...
"And all the people would come to him early in the morning to hear him in the temple."
"All the people" doesn't mean the whole nation....many of whom the Pharisees had poisoned with their lies about him.....it means those who wanted to hear what Jesus had to say...."all" those people.

When it says that "all the people" wanted to see Jesus executed, it wasn't all the Jews because many of them had become disciples of Jesus......but the mob before Pilate, in clamoring for his death, even cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matt 27:25)

We also know that the Bible says that the "goats" go into "everlasting cutting off".... which is eternal annihilation reserved for the devil and his angels.
“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. . . . .These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
Seems pretty plain to me. Not "all" are saved then.....are they?

Also the part where it says that the "many" traveling the wrong road, are headed for "destruction". (Matt 7:13-14) What am I missing in these plain statements? "All" in its context means "all" who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ to the letter will inherit salvation, whereas "all" who fail to live up to those teachings to the best of their imperfect ability, will "perish". (John 3:16)
Not all who sin are lost, only those who do not repent. Forgiveness cannot be administered without repentance. Many will not repent because they don't really believe that they have sinned.

I think you'll agree that had the Nation od Israel as a whole had accepted Jesus as their Messiah, both the Kingdom on earth and the Kingdom of heaven would have been ruled by Jews. This is seen in YHWH's promise to Abraham in Genesis 22:17

Yes I agree, but its a moot point because right from the get go, Israel failed to honor their covenant. God had promised Abraham that his progeny would produce the Messiah and he kept them in existence through the most disgraceful conduct; time and again he took them back after punishing them, but they never learned.
When Messiah was due, who did God send him to? NOT to the religious leaders because they had proven to be incorrigible liars..."from their father the devil".
Jesus had nothing good to say about them...their worship was "in vain" because it wasn't based on the truth of God's word. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:33; 3-39)
In the final words of Matt 23 Jesus says to Israel...."Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

Are you expecting the Jews to suddenly accept Jesus as Messiah..."the blessed one who came in Jehovah's name"? They have denied him and shown great hostility to Christians and Muslims who do accept Jesus as Messiah. This hostility has lasted from the first century, down till this day....how do you see them suddenly swallowing their pride to admit such a thing?
How does Isaiah 1:15 not still apply? Israel today are right up there with the other blood spilling nations.

The "Stars" mentioned here represents the heavenly seed, the 144,000. The "Sand" represents the earthly seed. The only promise broken was the heavenly seed.

That is an interpretation, not backed up by any other scripture.....it simply means that the Israelites would become a large nation and the vast number who left Egypt proved that it was true. Israel may well have numbered into the millions. Yet despite the miracles, they still couldn't do as they were told.....a "stiff necked people" whom at times, Jehovah wanted to "exterminate". (Ezekiel 20:9-13)

Bible Students preach the very scriptures you are quoting. We agree with you that the nation of Israel was punished and that only a remnant was saved. We see that Jerusalem was destroyed and only a remnant became Christian and fled from the Roman armies (thereby avoiding destruction with the nation). However, there are other scriptures which clearly show that this punishment is temporary and that natural Israel (“the sands of the seashore”) will be blessed, even if the blessing of the anointed prospective bride of Christ will be much greater (“the stars of heaven”).

Its one thing to preach scripture...it is entirely another thing to interpret it correctly. The punishment meted out to fleshly Israel will be the same as it is for all other ungodly nations...but just as it is in all nations, those who obey the teachings of the Christ will be acceptable to God.
After the conversion of Cornelius...."At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34-35)

Nationality will mean nothing then.....as all will be one nation in Christ.
"Gentiles" were simply non-Jews.

Jesus clearly indicated that the period of Gentile domination of Israel would eventually end.

Luke 21:24 (ASV), “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

What was to happen when the Gentile Times ended? God's kingdom was to begin its rule over Christ's anointed disciples and their resurrection was to begin in the period that Daniel identified as "the time of the end". There was to be wars and pestilences and great earthquakes.....also false Messiahs would arise and lead people astray.....and the increase in lawlessness would result in love disappearing from the world along with trust in its institutions. Anguish will result from people's expectations as to what is going to become of this earth and its inhabitants who now have the ability to wipe out all life living on it. But along with all that distress, "the good news of the Kingdom was to be preached in every nation" before God brought this system to its end. (Matt 24:14)

Romans 11:25-29 is so beautiful. It shows that Israel was “blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in,” that is until the 144,000 are complete. And then the blindness and their sins will be removed (verse 27). Verse 28 shows this that they are enemies for the sake of the Anointed, but beloved for the sake of the fathers – God still keeps them in His plan and will help them.

Rom 11:19-23...."You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in."

Their reinstatement is conditional......like people of the nations, they have to prove faithful to their God otherwise they will not be grafted back in....its their choice and it has conditions attached as the covenant at Mt Sinai did....

This was the offer God made to them.....“And now if you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”

Life from the beginning of the human race has been conditional.....and it wasn't rocket science.....obey and live...disobey and die. It was that simple.....and God has not changed.

 

[RR144]

The part in Luke 21 where Jesus has finished his prophesy on the end times and it says in conclusion...
"And all the people would come to him early in the morning to hear him in the temple."
"All the people" doesn't mean the whole nation....many of whom the Pharisees had poisoned with their lies about him.....it means those who wanted to hear what Jesus had to say...."all" those people.

When it says that "all the people" wanted to see Jesus executed, it wasn't all the Jews because many of them had become disciples of Jesus......but the mob before Pilate, in clamoring for his death, even cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matt 27:25)

Strong's uses 3956 for all their usages of the word ALL. But a careful look at any interlinear will show that they are different words. For instance in 1 Timothy 2:6 the word for ALL is designated #3956 PANTON. In Matthew 27:25 and Luke 21:38 it's PAS. In fact when you look at Luke 21:3, 12, 17, the word ALL is PANTON.

We also know that the Bible says that the "goats" go into "everlasting cutting off".... which is eternal annihilation reserved for the devil and his angels.
“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. . . . .These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
Seems pretty plain to me. Not "all" are saved then.....are they?

This is a Kingdom picture. Tell me, when does Satan get thrown into the lake of fire? Rev. 20:10, tells us. THEN, we're told of the great judgment throne.

"I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." - vss 12-15​

Also the part where it says that the "many" traveling the wrong road, are headed for "destruction". (Matt 7:13-14) What am I missing in these plain statements? "All" in its context means "all" who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ to the letter will inherit salvation, whereas "all" who fail to live up to those teachings to the best of their imperfect ability, will "perish". (John 3:16)
Not all who sin are lost, only those who do not repent. Forgiveness cannot be administered without repentance. Many will not repent because they don't really believe that they have sinned.

Yes, and ALL will have the opportunity to repent once they are enlightened during the Kingdom reign. There they will learn what Jehovah did for mankind through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Free from Satan's influence they will learn and make the changes to conform to God's will. Those who don't will perish.

Yes I agree, but its a moot point because right from the get go, Israel failed to honor their covenant. God had promised Abraham that his progeny would produce the Messiah and he kept them in existence through the most disgraceful conduct; time and again he took them back after punishing them, but they never learned.
When Messiah was due, who did God send him to? NOT to the religious leaders because they had proven to be incorrigible liars..."from their father the devil".
Jesus had nothing good to say about them...their worship was "in vain" because it wasn't based on the truth of God's word. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:33; 3-39)
In the final words of Matt 23 Jesus says to Israel...."Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

And what do you do with ALL those prophecies regarding Israel that haven't been fulfilled? You can't possible spiritualize them.

Are you expecting the Jews to suddenly accept Jesus as Messiah..."the blessed one who came in Jehovah's name"? They have denied him and shown great hostility to Christians and Muslims who do accept Jesus as Messiah. This hostility has lasted from the first century, down till this day....how do you see them suddenly swallowing their pride to admit such a thing?

Is that what the Apostle Paul says in Romans 11:25?

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.​

Israel is blind, UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles come in. What does that mean? It means when the 144,000 are complete, THEN Israel will see the one whom they pierced!

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10 (see John 19:37)​

How does Isaiah 1:15 not still apply? Israel today are right up there with the other blood spilling nations.

Have you read the Old Testament? Hasn't Israel always been a "blood spilling nation"?

That is an interpretation, not backed up by any other scripture.....it simply means that the Israelites would become a large nation and the vast number who left Egypt proved that it was true. Israel may well have numbered into the millions. Yet despite the miracles, they still couldn't do as they were told.....a "stiff necked people" whom at times, Jehovah wanted to "exterminate". (Ezekiel 20:9-13)

Again, I ask, what do you do with ALL those scriptures about the restoration of Israel? You can't spiritualize them no matter how much you try.

Rom 11:29 tells us that, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” What are the gifts and calling of God to the natural nation of Israel that are irrevocable?

• God will bless all the nations of the world through them (Gen 12:3)
• They will own the land of Israel forever (Gen 13:15)
• They will eventually be planted in their land and never again plucked up out of it (Amos 9:15)

In Luke 21:24 (NASV) Jesus said, “they (the Jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Notice that the time of Jerusalem’s trampling ended in 1914 with the end of the Gentile times. WWI which began in 1914 produced the Balfour Declaration through which the British Empire set aside land in Palestine for a Jewish nation, which became a reality in 1948. So the early Watchtower (C.T. Russell) was then correct in connecting the reestablishment of the nation of Israel with the end of the Gentile Times.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV “This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar — the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord”

Its one thing to preach scripture...it is entirely another thing to interpret it correctly. The punishment meted out to fleshly Israel will be the same as it is for all other ungodly nations...but just as it is in all nations, those who obey the teachings of the Christ will be acceptable to God.

Considering the track record of your Governing Body interpreting scripture, and rethink that thought!

After the conversion of Cornelius...."At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34-35)

Nationality will mean nothing then.....as all will be one nation in Christ.
"Gentiles" were simply non-Jews.

Don't confuse pictures. This is speaking of the calling to be a part of the Church, which was initially given "to the jew first" (Romans 1:16; 2:9, 10). The church is made up of Jew and Gentile.

What was to happen when the Gentile Times ended?

See my comments above

 

[Earburner]

I think that first of all we need to understand that “paradise” is not heaven. The thief who died alongside Jesus was not promised heaven, but that he will receive an earthly resurrection to a restored earthly paradise. He will not be a ruler in heaven, but he will be raised as an earthly subject of that kingdom, like all those who have died and paid sin’s wages. (John 5:28-29)

Paradise is not a restored Jerusalem or a restored earth.
Paradise is Heavenly Jerusalem, being those who physically died, but are asleep in Jesus, waiting for the Day of Jesus Glorious return, of whom He will awaken from their sleep, and bring with Him.
In that moment, we who are alive and remain, shall be instantly changed into Christ's likeness, of His immortality, and shall be gathered to meet Jesus and them in the air/atmosphere, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10. Please notice the word "when" in those verses. It is used in two places, revealing that Jesus' physical and Glorious return will be a simultaneous event of destruction for the unsaved, and redemption for the saved.

There will be no more earth remaining, for it to be restored, remodeled, or made new.
We ourselves ARE the New Earth in which God desires to dwell, in which is where His righteousness shall dwell also.
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[M3n0r4h]

It can't be complete when we consider that what YHWH told Abraham in Gen. 13:14-16

14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your [c]descendants forever. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.​

​

Moses had to remind YHWH about this promise when YHWH want to destroy the nation (Exodus 32:13, 14

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.​

Or when we consider the promise he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Gen 12:3​

​

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Gen 22:18; 26:4, 24;​

When has this happened? YHWH says Israel will be a blesser nation, that hasn't happened yet, He says they will possess the land FOREVER!!!!!

That hasn't happened yet.

The Apostle Paul says YHWH has not forsaken His people. - Romans 11

God's promises are always conditional. they lost the land due to repeated idolatry and disobedience to God. they lost it. God sent other nations to destroy it and the temple, and to drag the Israelites away captive. that was it. that was the end of that land being promised to them. the Bible is clear about that.

the land was fully given, just as all the passages I presented prove, and it was lost due to the Israelites not holding up their end of the covenant - which was, and is, obedience to God's Commandments.

the third verse you posted has no bearing on the Land Promises.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Strong's uses 3956 for all their usages of the word ALL. But a careful look at any interlinear will show that they are different words. For instance in 1 Timothy 2:6 the word for ALL is designated #3956 PANTON. In Matthew 27:25 and Luke 21:38 it's PAS. In fact when you look at Luke 21:3, 12, 17, the word ALL is PANTON.,

Well, I don't know what Interlinear you are using but the Mounce (Blue Letter Bible) says its all "pas"....no "panton".
But what is the point? "All" can have more than one meaning. It is clear that Jesus died for "ALL", but not "all" are going to pass the judgment at the end of this world system under satan's rulership, when Christ separates the sheep from the goats. You seem to overlook the fact that the goats are sent to the place "reserved" for satan and his angels....they are confined to the abyss for the full thousand years of the Kingdom's reign. During this time the resurrected dead are given opportunity to come to Christ, but the goats are already dispatched to the place where the devil and his hordes will end up. The devil is not released from the abyss until the end of the thousand years, and after he has attempted to steer mankind away from God again....only then does he go off into the lake of fire.
I believe that you have the timing all wrong.

This is a Kingdom picture. Tell me, when does Satan get thrown into the lake of fire? Rev. 20:10, tells us. THEN, we're told of the great judgment throne.

You see where you have misinterpreted the timing of the events.

ALL will have the opportunity to repent once they are enlightened during the Kingdom reign. There they will learn what Jehovah did for mankind through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Free from Satan's influence they will learn and make the changes to conform to God's will. Those who don't will perish.

All the resurrected ones...yes. But the goats are already gone. Any who deliberately sin during the thousand years will join them, but satan does not go into that firery lake just yet.

And what do you do with ALL those prophecies regarding Israel that haven't been fulfilled? You can't possible spiritualize them.

Paul tells us clearly that Israel has done her dash.....'spiritual Israel' ("the Israel of God" Gal 6:16) will get the fulfillment of the promises. Heavenly Jerusalem is not on earth.....the "land" they inherit has a temple, but it is the one that the earthly temple represented. (Types and shadows) No earthly temple will ever be built again because there is no need. The priests in the grand spiritual temple in heaven will serve mankind all through the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. (Rev 20:6)

Have you read the Old Testament? Hasn't Israel always been a "blood spilling nation"?

Wow!....you think God approves of her bloodshed, whilst allied with nations whose worship she despises? Have you read the OT? Did the ancients not learn a thing about shedding blood without God's sanction? (Isaiah 1:15) Did they learn nothing about being allied with foreign nations? Apparently....which is why they blew their chance to become "the kingdom of priests and a holy nation".....that God promised them IF they remained obedient to him....they failed time and again, so he gave that privilege to a 'nation' more worthy.

Again, I ask, what do you do with ALL those scriptures about the restoration of Israel? You can't spiritualize them no matter how much you try.

Yes you can....unless you fail to discern why God abandoned literal Israel and replaced them with a new nation who wanted to obey him. You focus on "the Promised Land" as if that literal piece of dirt meant something to God when those he gifted it to betrayed him. He allowed foreign nations to dominate the Jews in their own land....think about what that meant for them. In 70 CE, the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt.....think about what that meant for the Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah. They had no way to atone for their sins because the temple was the place where their sacrifices were made. Ask the Jews today how God can forgive their sins with no sacrifices....and you will hear excuses but no valid ones.

Jesus said that their house was "abandoned".....and that they would not see Jesus again until they blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name.....how likely is it that after almost 2,000 years of hostile rejection, they would suddenly turn to Jesus and hale him as Messiah? Pride will not let them. It was their pride that always their undoing.

 

[RR144]

Well, I don't know what Interlinear you are using but the Mounce (Blue Letter Bible) says its all "pas"....no "panton".

Well, if you looked at the actual Greek word in those verses, you'll see that they are PANTON and PAS.

But what is the point? "All" can have more than one meaning. It is clear that Jesus died for "ALL", but not "all" are going to pass the judgment at the end of this world system under satan's rulership, when Christ separates the sheep from the goats.

The point is as you stated, Jesus died for ALL, PAST and PRESENT. How can those before Jesus 1st advent benefit from His ransom, if they never knew him? You're right, "not all are going to pass the judgement. But they need to be there in order to be judged. You want EVERYONE who was ever judged to never get that opportunity, because even though they were so blinded by Satan, you want them to have known better. What part of "blind" don't you understand?

Isaiah is recorded as saying: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” (John 12:40) Are they to blame for their blindness?

Paul tells us in Romans 11:7: "What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded." The rest were blinded, who's to blame for their blindness? Verse 8 tells us: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” So tell me Jane, is it fair that God should condemn Israel for being too blind to see Jesus as the Messiah when it was God Himself who blinded them?

Most couldn't understand Jesus, and walked away confused, as he spoke in parables. When asked why he spoke in parables, he answered: “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." Those who walked away .... are they to blame for not understanding and following Jesus?

Paul tells the Corinthian brethren "whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." - 4:4. They can't see the Truth, because they are blinded. So you knock on someone's door, they reject your message, because they are sp[iritually blinded, so you wipe the dust off your feet and proclaim them "bird food"

You seem to overlook the fact that the goats are sent to the place "reserved" for satan and his angels....they are confined to the abyss for the full thousand years of the Kingdom's reign. During this time the resurrected dead are given opportunity to come to Christ, but the goats are already dispatched to the place where the devil and his hordes will end up. The devil is not released from the abyss until the end of the thousand years, and after he has attempted to steer mankind away from God again....only then does he go off into the lake of fire.
I believe that you have the timing all wrong.

So you don't see theses so-called goats as part of the resurrected dead? All humanity is dead, dead in their sins, that's why Jesus could say "Let the dead bury the dead" - Matthew 8:22; Luke 9:60

You see where you have misinterpreted the timing of the events.

Enlighten me, please.

All the resurrected ones...yes. But the goats are already gone. Any who deliberately sin during the thousand years will join them, but satan does not go into that fiery lake just yet.

The scriptures disagree with the goats being already gone. I think you better read Revelation chapter 20 again.

Paul tells us clearly that Israel has done her dash.....'spiritual Israel' ("the Israel of God" Gal 6:16) will get the fulfillment of the promises. Heavenly Jerusalem is not on earth.....the "land" they inherit has a temple, but it is the one that the earthly temple represented. (Types and shadows) No earthly temple will ever be built again because there is no need. The priests in the grand spiritual temple in heaven will serve mankind all through the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. (Rev 20:6)

I'm well aware that the Witnesses believe in "replacement theology". That is that all the promises of Israel are being fulfilled by Spiritual Israel. When God makes a promise he keeps it. He made a promise to the Nation os Israel, the Old Testament is filled with these promises. The Apostle Paul discusses these promises, and yet you (as well as others) want to take those promises and apply them to yourselves. That is replacement theology, that is an alteration of God's plans and promises, and Jehovah Himself says: "My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips." - Psalms 89:34

Wow!....you think God approves of her bloodshed, whilst allied with nations whose worship she despises? Have you read the OT? Did the ancients not learn a thing about shedding blood without God's sanction? (Isaiah 1:15) Did they learn nothing about being allied with foreign nations? Apparently....which is why they blew their chance to become "the kingdom of priests and a holy nation".....that God promised them IF they remained obedient to him....they failed time and again, so he gave that privilege to a 'nation' more worthy.

Well they are blinded, and they are fighting for their survival, just as they did during Old Testament times.

Yes you can....unless you fail to discern why God abandoned literal Israel and replaced them with a new nation who wanted to obey him. You focus on "the Promised Land" as if that literal piece of dirt meant something to God when those he gifted it to betrayed him. He allowed foreign nations to dominate the Jews in their own land....think about what that meant for them. In 70 CE, the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt.....think about what that meant for the Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah. They had no way to atone for their sins because the temple was the place where their sacrifices were made. Ask the Jews today how God can forgive their sins with no sacrifices....and you will hear excuses but no valid ones.

Yes and God told them that He would do that. Plenty of Old Testament verses that support this. Jehovah God promised Israel blessings if they would obey His Law, and threatened them with punishments if they would disobey it (Deut. 28:1-68), and that for centuries they received such blessings and punishments. He threatened Israel four times (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24, 28) with a final punishment of "seven times" at the hands of the nations (Gentiles), among whom He would scatter them (Lev. 26:33-45), despite previous punishments they would continue to walk contrary to His Law.

Are you aware that Israel's preservation as a separate people while dispersed among all nations (Hos. 3:4, 5) is one of the miracles of history?

Or that Israel's return to their land and God's favor is also prophesied (e.g., Lev. 26:40-45; Psa. 22:23-31; 102:13-28; Isa. 2:2, 3; 14:1; 40:1, 2; Jer. 23:5-8; 24:6; 30:7-11, 18-24; 31:8-12; 33:7, 10, 11; Ezek. 16:53-55, 60-63; 36:1-15, 24-38; 37:1-28; Hos. 3:4, 5; Joel 3:1, 2, 17-21; Amos 9:14, 15; Zeph. 3:10-20; Zech. 8:1-23)?

Read Zechariah 14, where Jehovah will "gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled,
And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity," Then says eh will fight for them as in the days of old and restore them. That hasn't happened yet. That's why it's a prophecy.

Jesus said that their house was "abandoned".....and that they would not see Jesus again until they blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name.....how likely is it that after almost 2,000 years of hostile rejection, they would suddenly turn to Jesus and hale him as Messiah? Pride will not let them. It was their pride that always their undoing.

Oh, so you can read the hearts now Jane? That's exactly what's going to happen. As Paul says, "that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25) When the 144,000 is complete, Israel shall be restored, they will see. The Prophet declares that it will be after their return to their own land, and after the great Time of Trouble which is now upon us, that the Jew will recognize that the great Messiah of glory, the great Michael of Daniel 12:1, for whose Kingdom they have been waiting, is none other than one of their own race (Isa. 7:14; 9:6, 7)—the “man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all” (1 Tim. 2:5, 6), now exalted at the right hand of God (Psa. 110:1). God will then blessedly open their eyes of understanding. As the Prophet declares, “They shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zech. 12:10); they will then see the identity between the Jesus who was sacrificed for the sins of Israel and the world, and the Messiah of Glory.

 

[M3n0r4h]

The Bible teaches that the land of Israel was promised to Jacob and his descendants forever and that the land of Israel will be the center of Gods kingdom on earth.​

Afflicted with anti-Semitism the traditional churches developed “Replacement Theology.” Some early church theologians wrongly concluded that Israel as a people was eternally rejected by God for having rejected Jesus. The claim is that the church is now spiritual Israel and, as such, has replaced natural Israel.
The King James Version of the Bible is filled with examples where promises to natural Israel are applied to the Christian Church through arbitrary chapter headings. For example, above Isaiah 59 is added a heading, “The sins of the Jews.” Yet in the very next chapter, Isaiah 60, the chapter heading added is “Glory of the Church.”

God promised the Land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants forever. To renege on this agreement would make God a liar. Yet how do we explain that Abraham was never given the land?

"14. And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15. For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. - Gen 13:14-17 (KJV)​

​

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him … 7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. - Gen 17:1-8 (KJV)​

These verses teach that God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants forever. That’s why we call it the Land of Promise. If orthodox Christian thinking were correct, we should rename it the Land of Broken Promise.

Notice how verse 7 of Gen. 17 speaks of “the land wherein thou art a stranger.”

Notice also… Acts 7:5 "And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child." (KJV)

Abraham died as a stranger in the land, without receiving an inheritance in it. This proves Abraham can’t be in heaven. He’ll be resurrected on earth in God’s kingdom to receive this inheritance with his descendants.

If you are speaking about a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth, then the Tanach indicates that the kingdom will be restored to the progeny of Israel and that event will be a blessing to all nations.

Zechariah 8
English Standard Version
​

7 Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country and from the west country, 8 and I will bring them to dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in faithfulness and in righteousness.”

13 And as you have been a byword of cursing among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so will I save you, and you shall be a blessing. Fear not, but let your hands be strong.”

19 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: The fast of the fourth month and the fast of the fifth and the fast of the seventh and the fast of the tenth shall be to the house of Judah seasons of joy and gladness and cheerful feasts. Therefore love truth and peace.

22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

Zechariah 14:16-17
English Standard Version
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16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

Now there are some in the Christian community who believe and teach that there will be no millennial reign of Jesus/Yeshua, but evidently, Zeke didn't get that memo.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah 14&version=ESV

 

[RR144]

If you are speaking about a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth, then the Tanach indicates that the kingdom will be restored to the progeny of Israel and that event will be a blessing to all nations.

Amen yitoz, Amen

 

[M3n0r4h]

The Bible teaches that the land of Israel was promised to Jacob and his descendants forever

yes, IF they were obedient to God's Laws, which they were not - leading to the Land being taken away BY GOD and given to others and Israel being led away captive to a pagan land for centuries.

they lost the land due to their disobedience.

nowhere in the Bible does it say that the land was given back to them after that.

and that the land of Israel will be the center of Gods kingdom on earth.

where is the scripture for this?

the Bible does not teach that this will happen on this existing physical earth.

 

[M3n0r4h]

the Bible does not teach that this will happen on this existing physical earth.

IMO, Zech Chapters 8 and 14 as quoted above do teach that it will happen upon this planet, because the penalty for those nations that do not go up to Jerusalem during the feast of Tabernacles/Sukkot will be that no rains will fall on the rebelling nations for the following year. Feel free to believe as you wish to believe. Cheers.