Why Baptize a Baby?

[BreadOfLife]

BOL can not help himself.
Catholic IS A LABEL, he proudly wears, and DOES what he has been TAUGHT...

IF one is NOT admittedly wearing the "CATHOLIC" Label....dig, hound, harass the other Until they reveal "THEIR" Label to him, SO he can "ATTACK" their Label, while claiming he is "not attacking them".

It's the "politically correct" game, that is his "cutesy" method to get away with calling others wrong and liars and incapable of having to face...the Truth....of what he has been taught all his life MIGHT be Wrong!
You have in numerous posts asked him to be civil... and he has a pocket full of excuses.
He IS the poster child for the Catholic "way".
God Bless,
Taken

Actually - this is completely false.

I don't care about simple "disagreement". I have many civil discussions with people with "disagree" with Catholic doctrine.
It's only when you resort to LYING - which people like you ALWAYS do because you can't defend your hatred of the Church WITHOUT lying.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You fail to recognize Protestants Do NOT "elect a human holy father" to perpetually change what their underlings MUST BELIEVE.

Non Catholic people, regardless of the SECT they choose to, or choose not to associate with...
Is a person who simply is claiming to Trust the Word of God, regardless of what OTHER religious SECTS teach Men MUST BELIEVE.

Glory To God,
Taken

No - you ALL have "mini-Popes".
They're called "Pastors". - and you believe WHATEVER they teach you to believe.

When you get tired of their teachings - you splinter-off into another sect with a NEW mini-Pope . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I haven't read all 7000 of your posts, so I am somewhat unwilling to make such a bold claim that you haven't uncovered or disclosed a lie or two along the way. So I am willing to concede that once in a while, you may have hit the jackpot. But what I have also noticed, a number of things.

• You certainly do not back away from anything that even hints at an error in anyone's thinking regarding Catholic doctrine/canon law, but fail utterly in giving the benefit of the doubt that maybe that person is simply mistaken, by constantly claiming he is lying.
• If someone kills someone with premeditation and deliberation, it is murder. They are a murderer. If someone steals something, it is theft. He is a thief. If some lies with a woman other than his wife, it is adultery. He is an adulterer. If someone bows down to an idol, it is idolatry. He is an idolater. You do not have to be an habitual murderer to be a murderer. Nor an habitual thief, adulterer, or idolater to be classified as a thief, adulterer, or idolater. If someone lies, they are lying. They are a liar. You do not have to be an habitual liar to be such. It is time you stopped calling people liars. You gravely insult everyone on this forum.
• I have also noticed that when someone offers a genuine and fair criticism of Catholicism, you respond in a premeditated technique that is an attempt to accomplish a number of things...
  
  1. Insult the person's intelligence by calling into question his motives and sources...asinine...ignorant...lying...anti-Catholic...
  2. Create a straw man you can readily deal with, while diverting attention away from the case under discussion.
• Something I have mentioned before. You claim to be Christian. Fair enough. I am not one to pass judgement on what you believe to be the case. There are certainly many fine genuine Christians in the world who would never dream of being known as anything other than Catholic. However, that said, your constant belligerence and antagonism towards others, even some who are being quite conciliatory and civil, does make one wonder if indeed you are Christian, because we are told to judge people by their fruits, not by the doctrine or their knowledge. Your fruits BoL are not particularly savoury. Not only do they do a disservice to your church...not only do they do a disservice to Christ...but they also do a disservice to yourself, for they powerfully undermine everything you may contribute to the discussions, even those contributions that may have some validity.

If your self-appointed role as described above was true, I suggest your post count would be possibly could have been reduced by 90%. Then of the remaining 10% remove those which add nothing to the conversation or debate but insult and condemnation, another 5%. Your presence and contributions here then would likely be far less perhaps, but infinitely more acceptable and readable. Maybe even enjoyable.

That's a complete LIE.
I have charitable conversations with SOME people here. As a matter of fact - in Post #71 of THIS thread I responded to Jane_Doe22 with whom I was having a VERY charitable conversation. She disagreed with the Catholic position - and I said:
"And I respect your difference of opinion.
I wish everybody here debated and discussed the way YOU do . . ."

The difference between her and the rest of YOU is that she chose NOT to lie.

Another charitable non-=Catholic poster here is @ByGrace. I NEVER have an uncharitable conversation with her because she isn't a hateful person like MOST of you.

The people here that DO lie are the SAME ones who have been SHOWN with documented evidence that what they have said is untrue. When they continue to proliferate the untruth - it is absolutely a LIE - wouldn't you agree??

 

[Taken]

"Catholic" can be a empty label, just as "Protestant" or "Christian" or any other one can be. But that doesn't mean it always is-- not be any stretch. I have met many Catholics who are real children of God and upstanding people that way-- burning unmistakeable testimonies. There is nothing about being "Catholic" which mandates poor behavior anymore than any other "Christian" label mandates it (and I have seen these bad behaviors throughout every different denomination).

I have said many times, I am not a fan of Labels, but some people live and stand with WITH their Labels at all cost. Their choice, and affects me none.

BOL can stand with her Label, her choice, and would add, it certainly does noticeably appear to affect how she communicates with others.

Now what course of behavior @BreadOfLife takes is up to him/her. I've asked for civilness and he/she can choose that route or a different one. It's all up to the individual. I sincerely hope she/he acknowledge the hurt they caused me and apologies for it, rather than the bad behavior of retreating behind denomination labels.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The Baptism of our Lord - the PROTOTYPE shows us that they are the SAME.
Jesus was baptized by a man - but guess WHO showed up?? The FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT.

You again missed the highlight.

Jesus walked into the water, HIS CHOICE.

Did you MAKE THE CHOICE?

By your own testimony, NO you did not.

Our response and obedience to God's calling - His grace - is what invites the Holy Spirit to indwell us.

Response? LOL, that is funny.

Scripture is pretty clear, The Lords Baptism is of the Holy Spirit, and it is the man who does the asking the Lord for His Spirit...
not mommy and daddy, as you teach.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

(Seeking clarification on your beliefs here)
Describing a situation here--

A Christian couple raises their child 100% in the Gospel, teaching from scripture, praying, church every Sunday, etc. 100% upstanding example of Christian life for the entire family. Part of their faith is that believe in Christ is what saves, and a believer's baptism is symbolic of that rebirth in Christ. So they don't baptize their unbelieving infant. Instead they teach and encourage their child's spiritual development, and celebrate when that the young person does choose to accept Christ and be baptized.

Do you feel that such a family is Satanic because they believe in a believer's baptism?

"Satanic" - no.
Disobedient - YES.

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

You again missed the highlight.
Jesus walked into the water, HIS CHOICE.
Did you MAKE THE CHOICE?
By your own testimony, NO you did not.

Response? LOL, that is funny.

Scripture is pretty clear, The Lords Baptism is of the Holy Spirit, and it is the man who does the asking the Lord for His Spirit...
not mommy and daddy, as you teach.

Glory to God,
Taken

And YOU have yet to answer the question as to HOW an 8-day-old boy could make the decision to have his foreskin cut off in order to enter into a Covenant with God.
Did HE make the decision - or did his PARENTS make the decision?

No nervous "LOL"-ing here because it's not funny.
Just a straight answer . . .

 

[Taken]

You DODGED the answer.

I said that YOU didn't believe that baptism saves us - which is TRUE.
YOU said that I made an "idiotic" remark be saying that.

WHAT is so "idiotic" about saying that YOU don't believe this??

Dude pay attention.

Learn there are different things men call Baptism.

The ONLY Baptism that has ANY merit IS The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is NOT performed BY MEN!

Being dunked in water, sprinkled with water, IS NOT a hot-line to the Lord to show up and His Spirit ENTER a man...

And certainly NOT, when someone else is ASKING FOR YOU, as you teach.

Pretty SILLY...."oh Lord, Lord, please, please enter your Spirit INTO my baby and made her saved and born again"......"pfft, who cares what you say God, the kid can learn ABOUT YOU LATER!"

LOL - Seriously, you are teaching, your mommy and daddy agreed FOR YOU, that you ACCEPT the Lord God....and YOU didn't even KNOW if He existed....nor did you KNOW your mommy and daddy made a VOW FOR YOU.

Sorry dude, Learn the Truth, men do not receive the Holy Spirit Without their own consent.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Uhhhh, no - the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects refer to PROTESTANTISM.
If you're NOT a Protestant - then it doesn't refer to YOU.

Your tone and attitude here thoroughly implies that's the level of disrespect you hold to all non-Catholics. It + your constantly not apologizing for it is extremely hurtful and destories civilness.

That's a complete LIE.
I have charitable conversations with SOME people here. As a matter of fact - in Post #71 of THIS thread I responded to Jane_Doe22 with whom I was having a VERY charitable conversation. She disagreed with the Catholic position - and I said:
"And I respect your difference of opinion.
I wish everybody here debated and discussed the way YOU do . . ."

The difference between her and the rest of YOU is that she chose NOT to lie.

You were civil for that post, but many of your other posts since them have downright been attacking.

 

[Taken]

No - you ALL have "mini-Popes".
They're called "Pastors". - and you believe WHATEVER they teach you to believe.

LOL - Nice try... a ROBOT telling a HUMAN man what he does. LOL LOL

When you get tired of their teachings - you splinter-off into another sect with a NEW mini-Pope . . .

When your Pope is confronted, He splinters off and Changes what you are now supposed to Believe.

In October 2016, Francis said that "When a person (who is gay) arrives before Jesus, Jesus certainly will not say, 'Go away because you are homosexual.'

Awesome...your Pope is teaching the Complete OPPOSITE of Scripture....

God gave them UP, and your Pope and your Church teaches to EMBRACE THEM.

Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you...

And your Pope and your Chruch teaches to yield to their ways.

But no matter to me....the Gays named your Pope, "man of the year". And my Feeling is the same... Your Pope is not anyone I follow after....

I have the Lord, I have chosen to follow after, and no I would not degrade Him, and call Him a mini-pope.....LOL, what nonsense you speak.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL - Nice try... a ROBOT telling a HUMAN man what he does. LOL LOL
When your Pope is confronted, He splinters off and Changes what you are now supposed to Believe.

In October 2016, Francis said that "When a person (who is gay) arrives before Jesus, Jesus certainly will not say, 'Go away because you are homosexual.'

Awesome...your Pope is teaching the Complete OPPOSITE of Scripture....

God gave them UP, and your Pope and your Church teaches to EMBRACE THEM.

Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you...

And your Pope and your Chruch teaches to yield to their ways.

But no matter to me....the Gays named your Pope, "man of the year". And my Feeling is the same... Your Pope is not anyone I follow after....

I have the Lord, I have chosen to follow after, and no I would not degrade Him, and call Him a mini-pope.....LOL, what nonsense you speak.

Glory to God,
Taken

Absolutely FALSE.

Having same sex attraction is NOT a sin.
ACTING upon it is what is sinful. Just like THINKING about robbing a bank is not the same as actually ROBBING it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your tone and attitude here thoroughly implies that's the level of disrespect you hold to all non-Catholics. It + your constantly not apologizing for it is extremely hurtful and destories civilness..

That is totally FALSE.

I bring up the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects of Protestantism when an anti-Catholic tries to tell me that Protestants are united and Catholics are NOT.

I don't "disrespects" Protestants. I disrespects anti-Catholics.
BIG difference . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Dude pay attention.
Learn there are different things men call Baptism.
The ONLY Baptism that has ANY merit IS The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is NOT performed BY MEN!
Being dunked in water, sprinkled with water, IS NOT a hot-line to the Lord to show up and His Spirit ENTER a man...
And certainly NOT, when someone else is ASKING FOR YOU, as you teach.
Pretty SILLY...."oh Lord, Lord, please, please enter your Spirit INTO my baby and made her saved and born again"......"pfft, who cares what you say God, the kid can learn ABOUT YOU LATER!"
LOL - Seriously, you are teaching, your mommy and daddy agreed FOR YOU, that you ACCEPT the Lord God....and YOU didn't even KNOW if He existed....nor did you KNOW your mommy and daddy made a VOW FOR YOU.
Sorry dude, Learn the Truth, men do not receive the Holy Spirit Without their own consent.
Glory to God,
Taken

WHY do you keep dodging the question??
HOW was circumcision valid if it was done by the word of the Parents??

HOW does a person validly enter into a Covenant with God when their PARENTS decide FOR them??

 

[Taken]

And YOU have yet to answer the question as to HOW an 8-day-old boy could make the decision to have his foreskin cut off in order to enter into a Covenant with God.
Did HE make the decision - or did his PARENTS make the decision?

No nervous "LOL"-ing here because it's not funny.
Just a straight answer . . .

His parents were making a Covenant with God. Part of the Covenant was FOR THE PARENTS TO RAISE THEIR CHILD ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD...and to SPEAK THE WORD OF GOD TO THE CHILDS EARS....

Hello....THE BABY SAID NOTHING...No vow of BELIEF, NO vow of Commitment...

Dude don't you know the difference between a Parent making a vow to the Lord, and an Individual child making a vow to the Lord?

You have given your testimony YOU were filled with the Spirit of God, Because your parents asked the Priest to sprinkle some water on your head....

For crying out loud, LEARN the TRUTH already....NO man is filled with the Holy Spirit, because someone else makes the CHOICE FOR THEM!!

Dude learn the TRUTH, people have FREEWILL.
Another CHOOSING FOR YOU IS NOT you exercising your FREEWILL....YOU have to do that, not mommy and daddy.

When you were a kid and wanted to go out and play and daddy said no...that is not you exercising your freewill.

When I exercise my freewill and speak what I believe....and you change what I believe and speak for me, with your words...YOU have with malice intent corrupted my freewill to express myself, as I believe.

Sheesh!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

And YOU have yet to answer the question as to HOW an 8-day-old boy could make the decision to have his foreskin cut off in order to enter into a Covenant with God.
Did HE make the decision - or did his PARENTS make the decision?

No nervous "LOL"-ing here because it's not funny.
Just a straight answer . . .

His parents were making a Covenant with God. Part of the Covenant was FOR THE PARENTS TO RAISE THEIR CHILD ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD...and to SPEAK THE WORD OF GOD TO THE CHILDS EARS....

Hello....THE BABY SAID NOTHING...No vow of BELIEF, NO vow of Commitment...

Dude don't you know the difference between a Parent making a vow to the Lord, and an Individual child making a vow to the Lord?

You have given your testimony YOU were filled with the Spirit of God, Because your parents asked the Priest to sprinkle some water on your head....

For crying out loud, LEARN the TRUTH already....NO man is filled with the Holy Spirit, because someone else makes the CHOICE FOR THEM!!

Dude learn the TRUTH, people have FREEWILL.
Another CHOOSING FOR YOU IS NOT you exercising your FREEWILL....YOU have to do that, not mommy and daddy.

When you were a kid and wanted to go out and play and daddy said no...that is not you exercising your freewill.

When I exercise my freewill and speak what I believe....and you change what I believe and speak for me, with your words...YOU have with malice intent corrupted my freewill to express myself, as I believe.

Sheesh!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jane_Doe22]

That is totally FALSE.

I bring up the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects of Protestantism when an anti-Catholic tries to tell me that Protestants are united and Catholics are NOT.

I don't "disrespects" Protestants. I disrespects anti-Catholics.
BIG difference . . .

Do you respect me?

Spoiler alert: I am not Catholic. I respect Catholic because I respect ALL faiths. I personally do NOT believe that the Catholic Church is Christ's one personal True Church on this earth. I PASSIONATELY disagree with many Catholic doctrines such as infant baptism, paper authority, Marian doctrines, etc. I respect that many Catholics are fantastic Christians. I'm not going to attack anyone's beliefs or misrepresent them-- respect and letting people explain themselves is a big thing for me.

Do you respect me even though I passionately (but respectfully) reject Catholicism? Or do you view me a just another splinter off the Christ's true Catholic church?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, I meant infant limbo.

The Limbo of the Infants

Hi CI,
I hope someone answered this...
Just saw it.

Actually there is no such place as a limbo for infants. In fact, there's no such place as limbo.

This is a myth that was believed by catholics, but which, unfortunately was never corrected by the CC and thus many believe this is Catholic doctrine.

CCC no. 404 states that Adam's sin was propagated to all of mankind since he was the representative of the human race. Since this sin was propagated, or imputed, it then became necessary for every baby born to be baptized ASAP so that he could go to heaven in case of death. The church believed, at the time of Augustine and thereafter, that any baby not baptized could not enter heaven if he died. I would suppose that the idea of a limbo was a way for parents to comfort themselves.

The CC has not taken the position that even if a baby dies unbaptized, he will go to heaven because we must trust that God is merciful.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.


Augustine's view on Original Sin:

Christianity regards baptism as the remission of all sins, so his [Augustine] slate was wiped clean, but the consequences of a lifestyle that he [Augustine]bitterly rued remained with him. He regarded human nature as sinful and attributed this sin to the first ancestors, who passed down hereditary sin. Humans were therefore in a state of total depravity and, according to Augustine, were condemned to Hell unless they were baptized, even unbaptized children.

source: Concepts of Original Sin in Early Christianity: Augustine vs. Pelagius

 

[GodsGrace]

First of all, Jesus NEVER said that.
Apparently you weren't reading the conversation because that's NOT the argument.

Coreissue said that ALL who were baptized in Scripture were already saved BEFORE they were baptized.

I proved him wrong again . . .

Please post a verse showing that someone was baptized who did not believe.

Everyone who went to John the Baptist WANTED to be a servant to God and wanted to be "saved".

 

[Taken]

Absolutely FALSE.

Having same sex attraction is NOT a sin.
ACTING upon it is what is sinful. Just like THINKING about robbing a bank is not the same as actually ROBBING it.

Thank you for sharing your Devil's advocacy.

Satan was cast out and down from his first estate TO Earth for THINKING...
(Remember...Satan didn't ACTUALLY RISE up above God!!
Remember ...Satan didn't ACTUALLY SAY what he was thinking).

And pretty much looks like YOUR ABSOLUTELY FALSE comment is smoke and mirrors.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

WHY do you keep dodging the question??
HOW was circumcision valid if it was done by the word of the Parents??

Seriously...?
What is so hard for you to comprehend the Parents making a VOW, is not the Child making a VOW?

Children are GIFTS to Parents.
Parents making a VOW to the Lord concerning the Gifts the Lord has GIVEN the Parents...IS the Parents making a VOW.....not the KID!

HOW does a person validly enter into a Covenant with God when their PARENTS decide FOR them??

Why ask me, WHAT YOU PROCLAIM?

Have you FORGOTTEN, you said you received the Holy Spirit when YOUR PARENTS DECIDED TO HAVE A PRIEST sprinkle water on your head, and that you were a baby and don't remember it?

I disagreed with you having received the Holy Spirit then....and still disagree.....so why ask me to provide an answer, that agrees with what you claimed?

Weird!

Glory to God,
Taken