It would be a much less horrifying end of life for most animals if other animals didn't want to eat them. They could die of old age or other maladies. If all animals were created to eat vegetables and fruit (and other created high protein sources) they wouldn't need to scream in agony while the tiger (or whatever) is chomping on their throats. One of my most hauting memories is being in thick woods when I watched a hawk attack and kill a baby rabbit. I can't unhear the screetches from the rabbit as it fought for it's life. The world life pattern design is cruel. I wonder why God designed this way when there were less terrifying options?
Why cruel design in the animal kingdom?
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Except He didn't design it that way. Death was not part of God's creation. All that stuff entered the world after the fall of Adam. We live in a fallen world\universe. The good news is the restoration of all things is underway albeit slowly.
I see what your saying. I just don't see the cruel fate of animals as being logically relevant. I can more understand it for human beings as they faltered in their obedience to God.
The whole of nature was affected by Adam's disobedience. The bible says that God killed the first animal to make clothes for Adam and Eve when they hid from him because they were naked. And the scriptures tell us that Jesus himself ate meat and fish. Who can argue with God? It is the way it is and there is a food chain and we humans are both side of it. We eat meat but also given the chance large animals would eat us.
It's not fair for anyone. None of us had anything to do with what Adam did, and yet here we are. But when sin entered the world, it affected everything (Rom 8:22). It affected God too, who had to send His only begotten son to suffer and die for our sins. We just have to take solace in knowing that one day, death and suffering will end.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
TWO things were cursed when Adam sinned. one was the "Serpent", and the other was the EARTH (for adam's sake). The earth was made subject to VANITY and negative entropy. But in the beginning it was not so.
I can't help but think that sounds somewhat trite. It doesn't change the observation that the animal sufferers are innocent. I don't believe that wild animals are capable of sin, so they shouldn't be culpable.
Actually, if I did it wouldn't change the basis of my concern. If I eat meat it is because I am just another dot in the chain of events that I didn't design.
I know people who simply CANNOT believe in God solely for this reason. I am in ENTIRE sympathy with your perspective. My own Christianity has evolved to the point where I'd make a good Jain. There is NO answer apart from standard "Christian" treacle: All of creation fell with humanity, yada yada. Unconvincing as this may be, I know of no better "Christian" answer. All I can do, if I am to remain a believer, is admit and accept the great mystery and do my best to minimize the suffering of animals.
This is why the Gnostics, Manichaens and others looked at this world and concluded it could not possibly be the handiwork of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You must be young.
Old age is exponentially longer, harder, and more painful than a few seconds/minutes of being attacked and devoured by a predator.
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That makes no sense. Animals die of old age, too. At 74, I at least find life not a bit hard or painful, little different than when I was 20. Given my choice between what the next ten years may hold and being eaten by a crocodile, I'll opt for the ten years. For that matter, my indoor cat is 19, blind as a bat and pretty wacky, but her life is quite enjoyable as well and I'm pretty sure she'd hide under the bed if I offered to bring in a Rottweiler to put her out of her "misery."
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The next time you pray, make sure you thank the Lord for that good health you're enjoying at an advanced age.
Not "next time," but constantly and continuously. I've done my share of the work, but an extremely sound mind and an extremely healthy body are the two greatest blessings of my life. I realize not everyone has received these blessings. How some people cope is truly heroic - I'm not sure I could do it.
(I'm not sure I like the term "advanced," but we'll let it go.
I like to think of it more in the vein of "Getting ready to hit my second shot on the 15th hole of life.")
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why that would be terrifying to you.
Man sinned and fell. He was cursed by doing so. When he did that, all the world fell with him so a design that would be converted to fear from the animals made them different in how they live and how they interact with man. The problem was, when the animals changed the little baby rabbit was now to be food for the hawks. Maybe the rabbit will get a reward in heaven for being food for the hawk? I dont know that for sure but I know that the hawk eating the cute little bunny rabbit did not sin, so wherein is the problem here? And what's terrifying about it?
I agree, you must be young.
I think she (he) means terrifying for the animal victims of the carnage, not for her. The fact that the concept of sin doesn't apply to the animal kingdom is precisely the point. Why would the fall of mankind cause the animal kingdom to be completely transformed in such a hideous direction? Like @Adrift, I find it difficult to square this with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.
Did the fall cause similar disruption in the plant kingdom? Where is the evidence of THAT? Did it cause the laws of gravity and thermodynamics to go haywire? I realize the fall is the only available "Christian" option, but it strikes me as very much of a "Just So" tale. More honest, I think, is to say yes, it's hideous, it's challenging to belief, and we have no good answer - but we can only trust.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
WHat is with you guys? WHat's hideous or terrifying about a hawk eating Lunch?
And of course the earth's curse at the fall extended to plants also. How's that go? ...Thorns and thistles shall it also bring forth for you...?
I'm guessing you guys were never hunters? Prolly never even shot a gun? Being a hunter is more about learning the cycle of life which taught me more respect for life.
You guys will go on down and pick up steaks for the grill, and then get on here and bellyache about it isnt fair that we do that, or that hawks do that too? (Lol)
I think both you guys havent thought this through very well.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
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