Why do people believe in a rapture?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You'll excuse me while I type on my smartphone with Google chrome but that event is buttresses by 1Co 15:50-52, Mt 24:31 and the other Synoptic Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse (including Luke for our time of redemption) as well as the result of said gathering (harpazo) in Relation 7 with the Great Multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation to before the Father oh His Throne in Heaven, and further evidenced by the sound of the Great Multitude in Rev 19 cheering on our Lord as He goes out to the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon.

 

[StanJ]

The editor on this site seems to work differently with google chrome than with microsoft's browser, so forgive me for the formatting issues. When you say rapture, are you referring to the gathering together of the elect? The only verse that I'm familiar with (used to support the secret rapture doctrine) is 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which appears to speak to the first resurrection of the dead and the gathering together of the elect.

The format on this site is a tad different Michael. You have to leave the header intact and type your response OUTSIDE of the box that comes up when you hit the quote button. Normal BB coding works fine here on Chrome or IE, or just make adjust your profile to use wsywyg.

 

[keras]

Believing that any of Revelation 7 takes place in heaven, is an addition to scripture.
The first three verses make it clear what John sees in this chapter is on earth. Nowhere does John mention heaven or a change of location of what he is seeing in his vision.

As all this happens BEFORE the Seventh Seal and therefore the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the 'mega thiplis'- great tribulation as the KJV has it, mentioned in verse 14 cannot be the actual GT. It is referring to the just happened by then; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

New Israel will build a new Temple, it will be God's Temple, Ezekiel 43:2, and Isaiah 66:21 says some of the righteous people gathered after the Lord has judged the nations by fire, Isaiah 66:15-16, will be chosen to serve Him as priests. Exactly as Revelation 7:15-17 says.

Why DO people believe in a rapture removal to heaven? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that is part of God's plan for his chosen peoples. Such a belief is contrary to what Jesus taught and is simply an escapist false doctrine.

 

[StanJ]

Believing that any of Revelation 7 takes place in heaven, is an addition to scripture.
The first three verses make it clear what John sees in this chapter is on earth. Nowhere does John mention heaven or a change of location of what he is seeing in his vision.

As all this happens BEFORE the Seventh Seal and therefore the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the 'mega thiplis'- great tribulation as the KJV has it, mentioned in verse 14 cannot be the actual GT. It is referring to the just happened by then; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

New Israel will build a new Temple, it will be God's Temple, Ezekiel 43:2, and Isaiah 66:21 says some of the righteous people gathered after the Lord has judged the nations by fire, Isaiah 66:15-16, will be chosen to serve Him as priests. Exactly as Revelation 7:15-17 says.

Why DO people believe in a rapture removal to heaven? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that is part of God's plan for his chosen peoples. Such a belief is contrary to what Jesus taught and is simply an escapist false doctrine.

There will be a new NEW earth and a NEW Jerusalem keras, there will NOT be a new Israel and an new temple. Your understanding is flawed.

 

[keras]

There will be a new NEW earth and a NEW Jerusalem keras, there will NOT be a new Israel and an new temple. Your understanding is flawed.

I do not deny the NHNE and a new Jerusalem that will appear after the Millennium.
But you are ignoring rather much prophecy when you deny a new nation in all of the holy Land and a Third Temple, that will happen before the Return. Isaiah 62:1-5 and 2 Thess 2:4 are just 2 that prove you wrong.

Making definitive unsupported statements and negative comments, like you do above, does nothing to prove your case. It merely proves the paucity of your understanding.

 

[StanJ]

I do not deny the NHNE and a new Jerusalem that will appear after the Millennium.
But you are ignoring rather much prophecy when you deny a new nation in all of the holy Land and a Third Temple, that will happen before the Return. Isaiah 62:1-5 and 2 Thess 2:4 are just 2 that prove you wrong.

No, they prove you read eisegetically. These two verses depict the NEW Jerusalem, NOT a new Temple. Revelation itself says God will NO LONGER live in a Temple as the NEW Jerusalem has no temple....try reading it. Rev 21:22-23 (NIV)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Believing that any of Revelation 7 takes place in heaven, is an addition to scripture.
The first three verses make it clear what John sees in this chapter is on earth. Nowhere does John mention heaven or a change of location of what he is seeing in his vision.

rabbi keras wants to add moving John to the earth to Scripture.

The first flaw is saying that John had to be on the earth to see what is transpiring there.

There is also nothing in Revelation to denote that John left the very Heaven he described in chapters 4 and 5.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that no wind should blow on the earth, or on the sea, or upon any tree. ASV

This is not an observation anyone could make standing on the earth, but only from a perspective away from it so as to be able to see it's "four corners".

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascend from the sunrising, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a great voice to the four angels to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, ASV

Again, having a perspective that could encompass the heavens (as sky and space) as well as the whole of the earth, this verse does not place John on the ground either.

Verse 3 doesn't add anything.

In verse 4, John only hears.

At no time is John on the ground as portrayed in the vision of the 144,000 in the detailed parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology when the 144,000 are on Mount Zion.

So when you check what rabbi keras says, you can see his teaching is of his own mind, and his mind is made up and cannot be corrected in any fashion no matter how erroneous his interpretation.

 

[keras]

It doesn't matter where John is when he has his visions. The fact is he is looking at earthly events in all of Rev 7 and nowhere is it said that any of it is in heaven.
The idea that the location changes after verse 8, is just added by those who promote the false rapture theory.

When all the prophesies telling us about God's plans for the end time events are read and understood, it is seen that His purposes have never changed and there will come a time that His righteous people will inhabit all of the Holy Land. It is they who will 'be a light to the nations and be His witnesses to the world'. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10, Matthew 21:43

None of this silly escapist dream of going to heaven. How truly absurd and pretentious is that belief.

StanJ, discussing issues with you is like trying to hold an eel.
You slip around and change the timing, like the Temple in 2 Thess 2:4 refers to the Temple to be built before the Return. I am well aware there will be no Temple in the NHNE eternity.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It doesn't matter where John is when he has his visions.

Yes it did! It did when you said he was on the earth!

and nowhere is it said that any of it is in heaven.

Oh yes it does!

The Great Multitude is in front of the same very Throne of God John saw in chapter 4!

Oh how rabbi keras twists in the wind when he tries to write Scripture.

 

[keras]

I say: Nowhere in Revelation 7 does it mention 'heaven'
Marcus says: Oh yes it does!

Who is the liar?

 

[rockytopva]

It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.- Revelation 13:5

If we were around when the anti-Christ comes...

1. Christ would not come as in the times of Noah or in the times of Lot
2. You would be able to discern the reign of the Anti-Christ and thus the time of Christ's second return.
3. As the Bible says that no man knows the time of the rapture so this cannot be something obvious
4. If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years, how would that be so if we are already on earth?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I say: Nowhere in Revelation 7 does it mention 'heaven'
Marcus says: Oh yes it does!

Who is the liar?

It doesn't say "earth" either rabbi keras, so are you lying by your false test of specific wording?

 

[keras]

Rockytopva said: It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...
I read and study all scripture very carefully and I do not see anywhere that God promises to take His people to heaven.
Yes, there will be a 'rising into the clouds', our atmosphere, at the Return. This refers to the gathering to where Jesus is by then; on earth, in Jerusalem.

I have posted many prophesies that tell how God will protect His own during the troubles to come. There is no reason for Christians or anyone, to be removed to heaven.

Marcus: the liar, earth IS mentioned in Revelation 7. Heaven isn't.

 

[rockytopva]

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17


These passage only work with a pre-trib rapture...

1. As in the days of Noah - Everyday times... And then they were taken away
2. As in the days of Lot - Everyday times... And then they were taken away

 

[StanJ]

Rockytopva said: It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...
I read and study all scripture very carefully and I do not see anywhere that God promises to take His people to heaven.
Yes, there will be a 'rising into the clouds', our atmosphere, at the Return. This refers to the gathering to where Jesus is by then; on earth, in Jerusalem.

I have posted many prophesies that tell how God will protect His own during the troubles to come. There is no reason for Christians or anyone, to be removed to heaven.

Marcus: the liar, earth IS mentioned in Revelation 7. Heaven isn't.

You continue to misrepresent your own OP keras. The rapture is NOT about us going to heaven, it's JUST about us meeting Jesus in the clouds.

 

[rockytopva]

If the rapture were anything but pre-trib there would have been no need for the Lord to utter these words...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

 

[heretoeternity]

1st Thess 4....when Jesus comes on the clouds for His people, it promises to be a very loud happening....no secret rapture evident there!

 

[rockytopva]

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

If the rapture is anything but pretrib then he does not come as a thief!

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4

... This is the event where we go up to be with the Lord... The Lord will then come back with his saints for the millennial reign!

 

[heretoeternity]

Matthew 24 Jesus says "AFTER the tribulation He will send His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of the earth"...this is the real clue as to when He returns for His people as per 1st Thess 4....as we do not know the exact time or hour, He will come unexpectedly like a "thief in the night", but as Thess pointed out, it will be very noisy and no secret!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

There is no reason for Christians or anyone, to be removed to heaven.

Marcus: the liar, earth IS mentioned in Revelation 7. Heaven isn't.

Except the coming Wrath... desolations upon the earth? Hmmm?

And it is NOT mentioned that John is ON the earth: silly rabbi.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth,

I know this may be hard for you, but to see four Angels at the corners of the earth, means John must have a viewing perspective which is farther away than the earth.

Of course, I can't expect you to grasp this salient fact when you make the sun shining brighter on a day of healing into an exploding sun on a day of wrath.