Why do people believe in a rapture?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Matthew 24 Jesus says "AFTER the tribulation He will send His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of the earth"...this is the real clue as to when He returns for His people as per 1st Thess 4....as we do not know the exact time or hour, He will come unexpectedly like a "thief in the night", but as Thess pointed out, it will be very noisy and no secret!

True.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If the rapture is anything but pretrib then he does not come as a thief!

Oh, there are many ways to 'come like a thief'...

One way is to steal something of value - US - from under the very nose of the anti-Christ who would kill us all.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If the rapture were anything but pre-trib there would have been no need for the Lord to utter these words...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

Well, it wouldn't have done anyone any good for 2000 years if Jesus had said, 'Hey, ya got plenty of time! Don't worry about it!'

As each of us doesn't know when we will go - even in the next five minutes (accidents happen) - it behooves us to live each day as it were our last.

Likewise, the Lord, who does not desire that we die, encourages us to live as if He were coming back right now. And that message serves the Church and perhaps has helped countless people through the centuries live better each day. Isn't that one of the lessons of the Epistles too?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Do we go to Heaven? Let's get another expert opinion.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You'll excuse me while I type on my smartphone with Google chrome but that event is buttresses by 1Co 15:50-52, Mt 24:31 and the other Synoptic Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse (including Luke for our time of redemption) as well as the result of said gathering (harpazo) in Relation 7 with the Great Multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation to before the Father oh His Throne in Heaven, and further evidenced by the sound of the Great Multitude in Rev 19 cheering on our Lord as He goes out to the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon.

I certainly believe in the gathering together of the elect and the sudden transformation to our new spiritual bodies, but its the timing that I have a problem with, given what we find in Revelation 20:1-6. The way I understand the text is that the multitudes which come out of the great tribulation, come out because they die in some manner during the great tribulation, some being martyred and others succumbing to war, plague, something like a mountain dropping on them, etc.
This morning while at work I was listening to a recording of "through the Bible" on WMCA and the expositor was speaking about the book of the revelation and was talking about a premillennial view of the rapture and said that he didn't see any purpose to the Lord catching people up into the air to be with Him, just to bring them back. I've heard this objection before, but people who make this objection miss the point that the people that come back with the Lord won't be the same as they were prior to being caught up. Instead of fleshly bodies, they'll have spiritual bodies. Instead of being subject to the conflict between the flesh and the spirit, they will have been perfected and without sin, made ready to collect the promised inheritance (as in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.)
I've also read and heard more than once that some folks believe that we'll be at the marriage feast of the lamb during the tribulation period, but there is at least one problem with that, being that the saints are supposed to be witnesses of the judgment against all flesh and unless we have some sort of spiritual TV at the wedding feast that would be tough. I do believe that the moment we enter into eternity, time on earth will become meaningless to us. Unfortunately, I believe that because of my understanding of relativity theory, not because of anything in the Bible, so I'm unable to support the notion with scripture. I think that we could spend what seems to us like 7 days, 7 weeks, 7 months, 7 years, etc. with the Lord in glory and return to earth a microsecond after we left (theoretically time is a spatial dimension and a property of creation which places no limits upon God, so He could even send us back in time if He wanted to.) This tends to make time lines fuzzy when considering eternity. I realize that heaven is part of creation, but the same physical laws clearly don't apply, given what we see in the gospels about Jesus' appearances prior to ascending to the Father.

It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.- Revelation 13:5

If we were around when the anti-Christ comes...

1. Christ would not come as in the times of Noah or in the times of Lot
2. You would be able to discern the reign of the Anti-Christ and thus the time of Christ's second return.
3. As the Bible says that no man knows the time of the rapture so this cannot be something obvious
4. If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years, how would that be so if we are already on earth?

1. We know very little about the times of Noah beyond the fact that men filled the earth with violence, yet Jesus told us that people were still marrying and living with no expectation of judgment, much as things are today.
2. The scripture says that "that day" will not come until the son of perdition is revealed. So rephrased, when the son of perdition is revealed we can expect that day to come (from 2 Thessalonians 2:3)
3. Jesus said that no man knew the day or the hour about 2000 years ago, the same could be said of the revelation of the "son of perdition," but we'll certainly know it when he's revealed. Some folks have a very elaborate time table for Christ's return based upon prophetic markers, but until those event occur they still couldn't have knowledge of the day or the hour. That's one of the reasons various preachers have made predictions, but they obviously misread the signs that they were looking for. I've heard some interesting messages by David Jeremiah and a few others which break down Daniel's prophetic writings about the entry of the Messiah into Jerusalem into an exact schedule showing the day that the Lord made His triumphal entry into the city. This was accomplished by changing days to years in the text, but its hard to argue with the results. Perhaps Jesus was just trying to say that neither He nor anyone else knew that day or hour. The scripture also says that the Lord is going to come like a thief in the night, implying that we won't be ready for His return, but the scripture also says:
3. For when they say, "Peace and safety!'' then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 5:3-5
Verse 4 suggests that we will be expecting the Lord at His return in judgment and that we will be here when it happens.
4. The Lord promises in scripture in more than one place to gather His saints together (or literally that His angels will do this for Him.) How could He do this without "catching up" the ones that are still alive, and how would He catch us up to heaven or the middle heavens (the air) unless He first transformed us into our glorified bodies?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Do we go to Heaven? Let's get another expert opinion.

Now that's Calvinism.
I don't know if I'm loosing it or lost it a long time ago, so good evening and God bless.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I certainly believe in the gathering together of the elect and the sudden transformation to our new spiritual bodies, but its the timing that I have a problem with, given what we find in Revelation 20:1-6. The way I understand the text is that the multitudes which come out of the great tribulation, come out because they die in some manner during the great tribulation, some being martyred and others succumbing to war, plague, something like a mountain dropping on them, etc.

The response I will give comes from a Pre-Wrath point-of-view built by my sequencing specific and unique events in the major linear prophetic narratives, their keystone passage for me is Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

That said, I look at Revelation chapters 19-22 as forming the epilogue account, starting from earth's timeframe being just before the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon, which is where we find our hero, Jesus about to go do battle with His Army in verse 11. Prior to that, the marriage supper was announced as "has come", but as a summary statement using the Aorist tense, which we mostly put in the simple past tense in translation. (Some versions use the present tense.) The marriage is not described as happening then either, but the going out to war. However, the marriage will be an accomplished fact.

In Chapter 20, we see the end of the one 'seven' has happened with the conclusion of the capture of the anti-Christ and the false prophet at the end of chapter 19. Those freed, or more appropriately, "made alive" are, in my eschatological view: the fifth Seal martyrs. Their number is made complete only after the Two Witnesses are called up at the end of the one 'seven' from the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Revelation chapter 11, verses 1-13. (This sidebar account is inserted in a pause of the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4-11 when John is told not to write. John resumes the action in 11:14 and quickly sums up the third Woe without describing it at all.)

As Revelation chapters 19-22 opens, the Great Multitude described in 19:1 - which I think is the same Great Multitude of the sixth Seal - can be heard in this epilogue account in verses 2 and 3 giving praise to their hero and champion: Jesus. Imagine if you would, welcoming your Superbowl champions in an arena, or the biggest ticker-tape parade celebration: it's that joyous!

It is important to note that the other sound of a Great Multitude is different, having godly properties of both waters and thunder which the first did not have. As the undefined voice of Rev 19:6 exclaims in verse 7 about the Bride in the third person, we can eliminate those speaking as being the Bride. It is my conclusion the Bride was the first Great Multitude John heard though. The second mention of a Great Multitude may be angelic.

So my view differentiates the Great Multitude - who are resurrected from the grave and those lucky few who never experience death being raptured instead, who do show up at the prior sixth Seal and come out of the Great Tribulation (in time reference) - as being different from the fifth Seal martyrs who must await the completion of their number who are "made alive" at the end of the one 'seven'.

Thus, I do not count the ones "made alive" as being the result of the Rapture, but rather those who waited underneath the Altar in the Temple in Heaven coming out of their "glass ceiling" enclosure. ("Glass ceiling" as in the floor John first described, becomes "as glass" when the fifth Seal is broken, revealing the martyrs who were there, but previously not able to be viewed by John.)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

This morning while at work I was listening to a recording of "through the Bible" on WMCA and the expositor was speaking about the book of the revelation and was talking about a premillennial view of the rapture and said that he didn't see any purpose to the Lord catching people up into the air to be with Him, just to bring them back. I've heard this objection before, but people who make this objection miss the point that the people that come back with the Lord won't be the same as they were prior to being caught up. Instead of fleshly bodies, they'll have spiritual bodies. Instead of being subject to the conflict between the flesh and the spirit, they will have been perfected and without sin, made ready to collect the promised inheritance (as in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.)

I do note that in all the Millennium passages I can find (some) in Isaiah, (a lot in) Ezekiel, and some of the minor prophets, most notably Zechariah whose book is very eschatological; there is no mingling of immortal and mortal beings, but those on the earth are mortal.

Theologically speaking, I see little use for the intermingling of immortal and mortal as the former are "changed" as Paul described, and not of the flesh. That said, sin, which is still able to be present for mortal flesh and blood, would be an anathema to the immortal Bride of Christ. Her service now is to her Husband: Jesus, who is without sin. Likewise, I think we can expect to be released from the bondage of sin with our Resurrection and Rapture, being made wholly new and not of flesh and blood.

Eschatologically speaking, again, from a Pre-Wrath point-of-view, when the Rapture comes with the Day of the Lord (preceded by the sun/moon/star sign of Mt 24:29 which is replicated with the opening of the sixth Seal) this comes before God's Wrath is about to fall.

The lesson of Noah and Lot (and I know the arguments about "who" was "taken" with Noah vary, but whatever you favor also has to work with Lot) to me is - Rescue and then Wrath.

In likewise fashion, I view the Seals segueing to the Trumpets as having the first Trumpet supply two of three elements foretold in OT Day of the Lord Wrath: fire and blood. As a conclusion on my part, I think the Day of the Lord encompasses part of the sixth Seal, pauses with the seventh for a little while, and then explodes upon the wicked with the first Trumpet of God's Wrath.

This view is buttressed by the detailed parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) which I think describes the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ with the midpoint abomination being revealed to be the talking image of the beast of a man: the Man of Perdition, i.e., the anti-Christ.

In chapter 14, we see the Harvest from the clouds, also described in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians but more importantly in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:31; being immediately followed by an Angel of Wrath to supply blood and whom is sent out by the one in charge of the fire: again the elements of the first Trumpet which make two of the three parts of the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

Now all that being said, the reason we are "taken up" is to get out of the field of this world which is soon to be lit on fire so as to punish the wicked. We are not to incur God's Wrath (1Th 1:10) but instead, are taken to the barn (of heaven) (Mt 13) where the Bride of Christ will be safe. (At a later point, it will be so un-safe that the Temple itself will be closed.)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I've also read and heard more than once that some folks believe that we'll be at the marriage feast of the lamb during the tribulation period, but there is at least one problem with that, being that the saints are supposed to be witnesses of the judgment against all flesh and unless we have some sort of spiritual TV at the wedding feast that would be tough.

I agree.

I would also point to the end of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) where an Elder looks to destroy those destroyed the earth as the anti-Christ and false prophet did and so as they will be utterly destroyed when they are thrown while yet alive in their flesh into Hell. Likewise he mentions rewarding the Saints, and we will each have to give an account of ourselves (the unveiling of the Bride) and then we will receive our rewards (one or more of the seven Crowns mentioned in the Bible).

This happens after the one 'seven' is over, which also necessitates that the Great Tribulation is over. (I do not call the one 'seven' the 'tribulation period' because it mixes up two distinct, specific and unique periods of time: the one 'seven' and the Great Tribulation.)

Since the one 'seven' is over, the action next we would see in a strictly chronological reference would be Revelation chapter 20 when the anti-Christ and false prophet have been thrown into Hell, and the martyrs' number is complete and they are made alive and so join the Great Multitude who arrived with the previous Day of the Lord (some three earth years prior) at the sixth Seal. Only when the martyrs are made alive does John see assembled, for the first time, the complete company of Saints redeemed in the first Resurrection - and this is the only time he dubs them so.

So we give an account of ourselves at our unveiling, are married proper, and crowned accordingly - all after the one 'seven' is over.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I agree.


This happens after the one 'seven' is over, which also necessitates that the Great Tribulation is over. (I do not call the one 'seven' the 'tribulation period' because it mixes up two distinct, specific and unique periods of time: the one 'seven' and the Great Tribulation.)

Thank you for giving such detailed responses and yes, I actually read them, though I didn't follow everything you wrote and would have to spend a bit of time going back to the passages to look at them in context. There were a couple things that I found confusing, but at least part of the problem that I have is that different people use the same terminology to express different things.
When I first believed and received the gospel, I spent a great deal of time listening to various preachers on the radio (all day at work,) and heard a number of variations on the topic of the rapture and held the pre-trib rapture doctrine to be true. The reason that I changed my mind, was that over the last 20 years (since my salvation) my testimony has been that the Lord has been teaching me by His Spirit as the word gives promise, and with every reading He has pointed out verses to me relevant to His return which contradict the doctrine as I understood it. I'd read chapters 19 and 20 (revelation) at least a dozen times before it hit me that the raising of the dead in Christ mentioned in chapter 4 of 1st Thessalonians had to be speaking of what verse 5 of chapter 20 of the book of the revelation calls the first resurrection.
I've heard John MacArthur explain that last verse away by asserting that the 1st resurrection or resurrection of the just occurs in stages, but I have a problem with the notion of God using language in scripture that is ambiguous at best. I also have a bit of a problem with the notion that the Lord would hide such an important doctrine in single verses scattered through numerous books, when He could have given us a detailed account through one of the Apostles. Jesus did give a pretty explicit account of His return and it seems more than a little odd that He would leave out the part about His church being caught up prior to the great tribulation (to the contrary, He speaks about those things which offend being removed.)
In any event, I trust that what I've received is from the Lord, though I don't pretend to understand the whole matter (if its not from the Lord then I'm receiving other "voices" and I'm not His and without hope in the world.) There's been at least one occasion where I'd attempted to interpret a parable without hearing from the Lord about it, and came to some wrong conclusions, but those things which He's shown to me typically are in agreement with commentaries that I've read, with few exceptions.
I have no interest in trying to make predictions about the day of the Lord's return, but I do believe that it will be soon, just as I believe that the anti-Christ is already alive and working in the world through intrigue, monetary and political power, to advance his agenda, but just not revealed yet. I suspect that all arguments will be put aside soon enough and that those things which we don't completely understand now will be known to us at His return.
Honestly, I wouldn't have interjected anything further in this thread, but it seemed a little like Keras was getting beat up a bit for his assertions, and while I don't agree with all of his conclusions I find it disagreeable that those calling upon the name of our Lord would allow their disagreements to degenerate into accusations and insults. Its tough being human and I can't imagine how anyone would ever think of themselves as being "good."
Thank you again for taking the time to answer my post and I pray that the Lord gives you a depth of heart at least as great as your determination to understand His word, and that He blesses all who have participated in the discussion with the sincere desire to serve Him by doing so.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The reason that I changed my mind, was that over the last 20 years (since my salvation) my testimony has been that the Lord has been teaching me by His Spirit as the word gives promise, and with every reading He has pointed out verses to me relevant to His return which contradict the doctrine as I understood it. I'd read chapters 19 and 20 (revelation) at least a dozen times before it hit me that the raising of the dead in Christ mentioned in chapter 4 of 1st Thessalonians had to be speaking of what verse 5 of chapter 20 of the book of the revelation calls the first resurrection.

I agree that there are some real flaws with a Pre-Trib Rapture as they relate to specific instances in end-time prophecy. And by "Trib", I'm using it as most layman do for the 'Tribulation Period' which is synonymous with the one 'seven'. Even a Rapture before the Great Tribulation is not warranted with the Keystone sequence-of-events Jesus gives us with the Olivet Discourse.

And because of that, Pre-Trib adherents invent a new class of people: Tribulation Saints. However, as Matthew uses "Elect", nothing is given which would separate his designation for what Jesus said as being anything different than how "Elect" is used in the NT for the believers in Christ.

However, I gave an explanation for why John doesn't declare any other the First Resurrection as being accomplished before the Rev 20:5, and this has to do with the distinction God makes among people. Now while God is no respecter of people, treating all the same in Judgment: guilty or not guilty, I see four classes of people in the end-times for the Church.

1. The 144,000 - the First Fruits. Culled from a listing of tribes unlike any other in the Bible, they may be of the spiritual Israel Paul taught we were. As "virgins", they may have had no other "husband" than Jesus (like the ten virgins of the parable). Since they never leave Jesus' side (Rev 14:4) they certainly go with Him when He tramples out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord, and the final battle at Armageddon. I think they serve as His Army, aided by angelic help. God only needed 300 with Gideon to take on tens of thousands. Likewise, 144,000 can take on 200 million plus. God does not need His Bride to fight. Jesus would not need billions to take on hundreds of millions. Neither would He, as a real man, take His Bride to war.

2. The Dead in Christ. I think these souls, resurrected from Paradise where they rest in peace (Abraham's bosom) represent all the normal Christians who came before us. They can also include godly Saints from before Jesus' First Advent like Daniel who is also promised what we are promised: an inheritance. Their resurrection happens on the Day of the Lord.

3. Those few Elect who remain and are still alive who are Raptured. These would include newly-believing people from the first of three Angels sent out before the Harvest in Revelation chapter 14. Together with the second group, the Dead in Christ, they are taken up on the Day of the Lord, and together, they make up the Great Multitude before the Father in Heaven.

4. The Martyrs. These special people, like the 144,000, are set aside because of a special quality they possess: faithfulness in the face of death. The Apostles rank in here (except for John who was only exiled, but then he also got special favor being taken up to see what Jesus revealed to him). First seen before the Day of the Lord (sixth Seal) with the opening of the fifth Seal, they must await the completion of their number, and that is only satisfied with the end of the one 'seven' when the Two Witnesses rise from the dead, and then rise to Heaven.

Now there are many ways people look at the end and put it together; I'd just thought I'd share my thoughts on it as it pertains to this one aspect of what you wrote.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As a way of further explanation for a Pre-Wrath point-of-view,

The Day of the Lord is the "last day" for the Church, the last day for the offer of Grace through Faith.
It comes after the midpoint abomination - when the Two Witnesses show up.
It comes after the Great Tribulation -
- which is cut short (weeks? 2-3 months?) by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord is when the 144,000 are sealed, the dead are raised from Paradise, and then with them, Jesus gathers up the Elect.

After the Great Multitude (the Dead in Christ and the Raptured Elect) is delivered to the barn of Heaven, Jesus and the 144,000 trample out His Wrath on the second half of the Day of the Lord in two battles: one around Jerusalem, and the other near Bethlehem, in the valley of decision.

God's Desolations follow until Armageddon, when again Jesus and the 144,000 do battle.

Right before the end of the one 'seven', the Two Witnesses are killed, and lie in state for three days. At the end of the one 'seven', with the battle of Armageddon, they then rise from death, and are taken up as well so as to complete the number of the Martyrs from the fifth Seal who are waiting still.

After the one 'seven ' is over, when all the Martyrs are "made alive", that is come out from beneath the Altar in new, immortal and imperishable bodies, then, and only then, does John see all four components of the Church in their glorified state - and only then does he pronounce this time as the First Resurrection - and that is contrasted by the Second Resurrection when both Holy and Wicked, Sheep and Goats, are brought up from death.

 

[michaelvpardo]

As a way of further explanation for a Pre-Wrath point-of-view,

The Day of the Lord is the "last day" for the Church, the last day for the offer of Grace through Faith.
It comes after the midpoint abomination - when the Two Witnesses show up.
It comes after the Great Tribulation -
- which is cut short (weeks? 2-3 months?) by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord is when the 144,000 are sealed, the dead are raised from Paradise, and then with them, Jesus gathers up the Elect.

After the Great Multitude (the Dead in Christ and the Raptured Elect) is delivered to the barn of Heaven, Jesus and the 144,000 trample out His Wrath on the second half of the Day of the Lord in two battles: one around Jerusalem, and the other near Bethlehem, in the valley of decision.

God's Desolations follow until Armageddon, when again Jesus and the 144,000 do battle.

Right before the end of the one 'seven', the Two Witnesses are killed, and lie in state for three days. At the end of the one 'seven', with the battle of Armageddon, they then rise from death, and are taken up as well so as to complete the number of the Martyrs from the fifth Seal who are waiting still.

After the one 'seven ' is over, when all the Martyrs are "made alive", that is come out from beneath the Altar in new, immortal and imperishable bodies, then, and only then, does John see all four components of the Church in their glorified state - and only then does he pronounce this time as the First Resurrection - and that is contrasted by the Second Resurrection when both Holy and Wicked, Sheep and Goats, are brought up from death.

Everything that you've said sounds reasonable and could be the way of things to come. The Pastor of the church that I was once a member of, a fellow named Randy Smith who "the bridge" listeners may be familiar with, told us during his first visits to that church that he held to a mid-tribulation rapture doctrine, though he never elucidated upon the idea. I've been so troubled in spirit by these and other things going on in my life, that the Lord has been ministering to me things which I wasn't entirely prepared to hear or record, though I hope to look more carefully at these things and prepare something to share with the church. One thing that He taught me, even though I was a reluctant listener, was that our presence through some of the events to come is a voluntary matter though some will fall under the curse of the book of the revelation and have that choice removed.
He pointed out to me that in spite of John MacArthur's book about our "slavery" to Christ, that according to the word "it was for freedom that Christ set us free": "And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:35-36
Psalm 110, which is messianic and quoted in the New Testament also says this: Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. Psalms 110:3
In my personal experience, I understood and received the gospel when I was 39 years old, but prior to that I always believed in God (the God of scripture) as far back as I'm able to remember, but went through periods of doubt about the person of Jesus, though I always thought of Him as my master. I tended toward extreme self righteousness while indulging in whatever sin I had the mind to commit. I dabbled in the occult and read books on the better known religions, even incorporating elements of Taoist thought into my own while studying martial arts, but never really abandoned my belief in God and my affection for Christ. I find it difficult to believe that in a world with more than 6 billion people, there aren't others with similar experience, those who have known no other God. I've always had an affinity for the Jewish people with most of my closest friends as a youth being secular Jews, though I know of no evidence to support any Jewish blood of my own. Prior to internet companies specializing in genealogical "rediscovery" there are very few "gentile" people in the west that would be able to trace their family lineage for more than a few generations and given that there were many forced conversions prior to "the expulsion" in Spain and other European countries, I'm inclined to believe that the Lord could reconstruct the tribes of Israel entirely out of Christian believers that may be completely unaware of any fleshly tie to the Jews, though there are clearly thousands of Jewish believers in "Yahshua" our Lord. My point is that the Lord can fulfill His word with regard to the 144,000 in a spiritual way from what Paul called the Israel of God, and He can still do this in a physical way through actual blood descendants.
I've already made a choice. The Lord can take my life whenever He chooses, and He certainly could just snatch me out of the way of trouble, but I will not voluntarily abandon my people, and blood line or not, I consider the Jews to be my people as much as the Spaniards and Slavic people from which my immediate ancestors are drawn.
I believe that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord, having believed and received the gospel, has such a choice to make. This doesn't mean that I believe in any kind of pre-tribulation rapture, but the Lord has promised to keep us all from any temptation greater than we are able to bear and to provide a way of escape. That being said, the scripture also tells us that the cowardly will have their part in the second death, and I assume that the Lord hates cowardice because it reveals a lack of faith (or belief) in Him. Now if our choice is "to stand" or "to run and hide," well that will be a type of division that just won't go well for people who make the latter choice. Yet, God knows the faithful heart and who is able to endure and who is not, so it would seem that the best thing for us to do is to continue to demonstrate God's faithfulness in our lives with our testimonies and to continue in His service as instructed, building the body of Christ, and making disciples of men.
Thank you for your explanations and faithfulness to the text of scripture. I've sat under pastors who've spoken about "doing violence" to the text by tearing things out of context to build some other doctrine, and these same have done so from the pulpit by repeating what they'd learned from men rather than from God. Its always refreshing to read or hear people who's hearts are steadfast in holding to scripture as it was written and true to the Spirit from whom it was received. May the Lord bless you beyond your peers for that and keep you near in dark and perilous times. Amen.

 

[keras]

Why do people believe in a rapture? Only those who have been taken in by this false teaching can answer that.


[SIZE=11pt]John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't the plan for His people now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.[/SIZE]

 

[rockytopva]

Why do people believe in a rapture? Only those who have been taken in by this false teaching can answer that.


[SIZE=11pt]John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't the plan for His people now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.[/SIZE]

It is the gospel according to keras!

 

[StanJ]

Why do people believe in a rapture? Only those who have been taken in by this false teaching can answer that.
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.

and once again you prevaricate about your own OP. The RAPTURE is NOT about going to heaven, which you have been told numerous times, so continually making it part of your argument is deliberate obfuscation. I'll have to ask the Admin to close down this thread as you will not be truthful about your own OP.

 

[heretoeternity]

and once again you prevaricate about your own OP. The RAPTURE is NOT about going to heaven, which you have been told numerous times, so continually making it part of your argument is deliberate obfuscation. I'll have to ask the Admin to close down this thread as you will not be truthful about your own OP.

You should maybe stick to the Bible quotes, and quit the abusive editorializing of your opinions, at the expense of Keras and others...He makes some good points even though you do not agree with him, or are you like the Pope infallible..it is apparent in your own eyes you are infalliible..

 

[keras]

The truth according to Jesus:
[SIZE=11pt]John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.[/SIZE]

StanJ, I am discussing the issue of a rapture to heaven with the other members here.
Perhaps you would tell us where you believe the Lord's people go to in 1 Thess 4:15-17 and Matthew 24:31

 

[StanJ]

StanJ, I am discussing the issue of a rapture to heaven with the other members here.
Perhaps you would tell us where you believe the Lord's people go to in 1 Thess 4:15-17 and Matthew 24:31

I know exactly what you're doing, as I identified from almost the beginning. Your message hasn't changed, despite the continual eisegesis of scripture. The rapture is NOT about going to heaven...never has and never will be. You'll notice. or at least SHOULD notice, that 1 Thess 4:16 says the Lord will "descend or come DOWN from Heaven". Matt 23:31 doesn't say this either, just what the WORLD will see. Our destiny as believers, is two fold....1000 years reign with Christ on THIS earth and ETERNITY in the NEW earth/NEW Jerusalem. Rev 20-21 is VERY clear on this, as have I been all the times I've shown you this, which you refuse to acknowledge or confirm IS true.

 

[keras]

I know exactly what you're doing, as I identified from almost the beginning. Your message hasn't changed, despite the continual eisegesis of scripture. The rapture is NOT about going to heaven...never has and never will be. You'll notice. or at least SHOULD notice, that 1 Thess 4:16 says the Lord will "descend or come DOWN from Heaven". Matt 23:31 doesn't say this either, just what the WORLD will see. Our destiny as believers, is two fold....1000 years reign with Christ on THIS earth and ETERNITY in the NEW earth/NEW Jerusalem. Rev 20-21 is VERY clear on this, as have I been all the times I've shown you this, which you refuse to acknowledge or confirm IS true.

Don't you read what I write? If you think I believe in a rapture, you are wrong.
I chucked that belief years ago, when I carefully studied all the Bible, so yes, I acknowledge what you say above is true. Happy now?