Why do people believe in a rapture?

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Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Why don't you give some proofs for your side of the issue? Just ONE verse that actually says: 'the Lord will take His people to heaven', or something very similar, not the usual addition of words and twisting verses to make them say what you want them to.
John 14:1 " Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going."

Two things: rabbi keras will twist this around, and he will twist in the wind while doing so.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Just ONE verse that actually says: 'the Lord will take His people to heaven', or something very similar, not the usual addition of words and twisting verses to make them say what you want them to.
rabbi keras has some lengthy experience in twisting verses around to make them say what he wants them to, so pay attention to his warning here - he knows how to do it right.

Isaiah 30:26 The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the Lord binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

rabbi keras 30;26 On that Day, the moon will shine as brightly as the sun and the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength. The Lord Himself will bring on this judgement, with His anger blazing and His doom heavy. A devouring fire will devastate the nations, His enemies will be as ashes in the fire pit.
 

ATP

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keras said:
Hey Stan, where you gonna run to?

Why don't you give some proofs for your side of the issue? Just ONE verse that actually says: 'the Lord will take His people to heaven', or something very similar, not the usual addition of words and twisting verses to make them say what you want them to.
We can show you the scriptures over and over, but it wouldn't matter.
Your belief would have to change first in order for your result to change. Rev 7:9, Rev 19:1.
Your response is: We don't know who the great multitude are in Rev 19:1. The Bible doesn't tell us. :rolleyes:
Silly doctrines follow silly answers.
 

keras

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I was trying not to be dogmatic, when I said the Bible doesn't say who the people are in Rev 19:1. Which it doesn't.
However, your thinking that they are live people raptured there, is unsupported by other scriptures. Incl John 14:1, where heaven is not mentioned.

It is more logical to see them as the martyred souls as per Rev 6:9-11, they were able to speak then and as Jesus Returns to earth, He will bring their souls with Him and resurrect them before they join with Jesus at the Marriage Supper.
So its easy, just get your head chopped off for your belief in Jesus and you're in!

Because there isn't even ONE verse that states God will take His people alive to heaven, you all use abuse, personal denigration and refutation of plain prophetic verses to counter me. These are not the tactics of how we Christians should act, I suggest you all look seriously at your motivations. Why should a challenge to your beliefs provoke such a nasty reaction?
It should be a simple matter for you to guide me, in error as you think, to the truth, without getting so upset about it.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
Because there isn't even ONE verse that states God will take His people alive to heaven, you all use abuse, personal denigration and refutation of plain prophetic verses to counter me. These are not the tactics of how we Christians should act, I suggest you all look seriously at your motivations. Why should a challenge to your beliefs provoke such a nasty reaction?
It should be a simple matter for you to guide me, in error as you think, to the truth, without getting so upset about it.
Why do you keep saying the above highlighted words keras? This is NOT what the rapture states or is about. It is about Jesus returning for His own, and keeping them OUT of harms way during the Great tribulation. I haven't seen one person here advocate they go to heaven at the rapture, EXCEPT you. You rant against your own misunderstanding. :wacko:
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
there isn't even ONE verse that states God will take His people alive to heaven,
Demanding a single verse that shows people who never taste death, are changed (or exchange mortal for immortal), are gathered up, and arrive (in the barn of Heaven) before God the Father on His Throne in His Temple in Heaven - is a false test.

Only the simpleton demands God spell everything out in one single sentence.

The fact that God desires that we seek Him explains the difficulty in putting together the multitude of verses which do show that people who never taste death are delivered to Heaven. (No one is 'taken alive to Heaven' in the Rapture because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven)

keras said:
you all use abuse, personal denigration and refutation of plain prophetic verses to counter me. These are not the tactics of how we Christians should act, I suggest you all look seriously at your motivations. Why should a challenge to your beliefs provoke such a nasty reaction?
I'd ask the same of you who don't count me as saved because I disagree with your incorrect assertions. Being consigned to Hell is a pretty rough judgment there - rabbi.

But unlike you rabbi keras, I don't go running to the moderators every time you insult me. It seems you can dish it out, but you can't take it.
 

keras

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StanJ said:
Why do you keep saying the above highlighted words keras? This is NOT what the rapture states or is about. It is about Jesus returning for His own, and keeping them OUT of harms way during the Great tribulation. I haven't seen one person here advocate they go to heaven at the rapture, EXCEPT you. You rant against your own misunderstanding. :wacko:
Ok Stan, it seems you have a better understanding of God's plans than others here, who do believe they will be whisked to heaven.


Marcus O'Reillius said:
Demanding a single verse that shows people who never taste death, are changed (or exchange mortal for immortal), are gathered up, and arrive (in the barn of Heaven) before God the Father on His Throne in His Temple in Heaven - is a false test.

Only the simpleton demands God spell everything out in one single sentence.

The fact that God desires that we seek Him explains the difficulty in putting together the multitude of verses which do show that people who never taste death are delivered to Heaven. (No one is 'taken alive to Heaven' in the Rapture because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven)
I have posted many single verses saying clearly and concisely that no one goes to heaven, also what the truth of God's plans for His people actually is.
The fact you can't, don't, won't believe them, is because you have been blinded to the truth, as we see:

[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 56:9-12 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]All you beasts[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] of the open country and the forest, come and eat your fill. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For all of Israel’s watchmen are blind, perceiving nothing,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] they are all as dumb dogs that cannot bark, dreaming and sleeping. They are like greedy dogs that can never be satisfied, they are shepherds unable to understand the truth, as they go their own way. They say: Come let us fetch wine, strong drink and we will swill it down. The future will be the same as today or better still! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 29:9-10 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded. Be drunk, but not with wine, for the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed the prophetic vision and sealed the means of discerning the future to you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Jeremiah 14:11-13 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Lord said to me: Do not pray for the wellbeing of this people. Though they fast and worship Me, [but not in spirit and in truth] I shall not listen to their cry on the Day of My punishment. But Lord – their leaders and pastors say to them: you will not face the terrible sword of judgement and [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]they preach prosperity and escape from tribulation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jeremiah 14:14-16 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Lord answered me: These are lies that your leaders are misleading the people with. I have not sent them, I have not given them My commission, or spoken to them. They are giving out false teachings, useless advice and their own foolish daydreams. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Therefore, I say about those teachers and pastors who speak falsely in My Name, they will meet their end in My Day of wrath, I shall pour down upon them the disaster they deserve. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]2 Timothy 4:3-4[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will go after their own desires and will only listen to teachers who give pleasant and easy outcomes. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]People will refuse to listen to true scriptural teaching[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]They will only believe fables and fanciful notions[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]1 Timothy 1:7[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Ref: REB.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium][/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beasts of the field’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], foreigners, non Israelites. Those who have ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]encroached onto the[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]holy Land’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Jeremiah 12:14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Israel’s watchmen perceive nothing’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], the veil that hides the true knowledge of God’s Word is upon them, because of false beliefs. Deuteronomy 29:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE][SIZE=medium]If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Even when the truth is presented to people who think they have it all sorted, they just cannot see it. Jeremiah 6:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE][SIZE=medium]They preach prosperity[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], the prosperity theology that gives a sense of false security [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]and escape from tribulation’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], The very wrong and pretentious idea of a pre tribulation rapture, that lulls people into thinking they need do nothing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]‘People will refuse to listen to true scriptural teaching’, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]2 Peter 2:1-3[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But for those who make the effort to overcome the false teachings, the fictional books that proliferate on the book stalls and all the rubbish on the internet, there is hope: Psalm 78:1-8, Isaiah 55:1-3, Psalm 25:8-9, Psalm 27:11-12, Psalm 32:8, 2 Peter 1:19[/SIZE]
 

StanJ

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keras said:
Ok Stan, it seems you have a better understanding of God's plans than others here, who do believe they will be whisked to heaven.

I have posted many single verses saying clearly and concisely that no one goes to heaven, also what the truth of God's plans for His people actually is.
The fact you can't, don't, won't believe them, is because you have been blinded to the truth, as we see:
That is the whole point keras....you post MANY verses but no exegesis. Making claims without SHOWING them don't really work with people who KNOW God's word. Nobody will be WISKED to heaven as you put it, and sayi8ng it again just shows you FAIL to understand the whole issue about the rapture. We as believers are destined for ETERNAL life on this earth and the next.
 

keras

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So you say you really 'know' God's Word/
I have read the Bible right through, in several versions and many times. I have written over 500 articles on it, in 4 books. I have written my own Scripture subject reference. I can usually find any un referenced quote quickly. I can confidently assert that I do know God's Word. That is why I can easily refute false teaching when I see it.
The fact that people who do hold to false teachings are made incapable of understanding the truth, isn't my problem, I post for the majority; true seekers who can see all sides of an argument.

What do you call the explanations and parallel verses in my posts, if not exegesis?
One thing I NEVER do is include myself among those to whom God will bestow eternal life. That is God's prerogative, He knows the true status of everyone.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
I have posted many single verses saying clearly and concisely that no one goes to heaven, also what the truth of God's plans for His people actually is.
You call what little you do exegesis? Let's compare your "work" to any good commentary and see the difference. Proper exegesis is hard word requiring time and research, not making spot equations of this means this and that means that without any reference at all.

Throwing up verses for Israel that do not apply to the Church is not presenting the Truth. It's your opinion and a poor one at that.

I don't care how many articles you claim to have written, nor how many books you claim you have done: are they worth anything if this is what they contain? No. Maybe that's why you can only publish them on your website and give them away for free: no publishing house would sully their reputation with this opinionated, non-scholarly approach, and no one is willing to pay for such drivel either.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
So you say you really 'know' God's Word/
I have read the Bible right through, in several versions and many times. I have written over 500 articles on it, in 4 books. I have written my own Scripture subject reference. I can usually find any un referenced quote quickly. I can confidently assert that I do know God's Word. That is why I can easily refute false teaching when I see it.
The fact that people who do hold to false teachings are made incapable of understanding the truth, isn't my problem, I post for the majority; true seekers who can see all sides of an argument.

What do you call the explanations and parallel verses in my posts, if not exegesis?
One thing I NEVER do is include myself among those to whom God will bestow eternal life. That is God's prerogative, He knows the true status of everyone.
Yes keras I do, especially when it comes to issues like these that directly impact my walk of faith and understanding. Assertions along with verses is NOT exegesis, despite your self proclaimed knowledge. It doesn't matter how many articles you've written, if you don't understand God's word, they are ALL wrong, just as all the scholarly articles that have come out of many denominations over the years are wrong.
It may not be your problem that many hold to false teachings, but it is your problem when you teach them, or at least TRY to.

I have and DO call it eisegesis.
Then I guess you don't believe John states about eternal life in his epistles? This is why you lack credibility.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NIV&quicksearch=eternal+life&begin=69&end=69
 

mjrhealth

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So you say you really 'know' God's Word/
The whole point, you dont. you all know the bible. Yet is seems fine with men to give the bible the same status as given to Christ by God, something he never gave to teh writen word. Jesus is the Word of God, when you knows Him than one can make the claim.

Whats it say.

1Co_3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

And I dont know what exegis is and have no care or need to. Only need to know Jesus, if only men did.

In all His Love
 

keras

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[SIZE=medium]There is a lot of discussion here on when a rapture to heaven will happen, as though that idea is a foregone conclusion. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 mentions a rising up of those who remain alive when Jesus Returns. Also Matthew 24:31 refers to the same event, where the chosen people are gathered to Him. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]But this event cannot mean going to heaven, as Jesus has departed from heaven and [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]entered on His reign[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Revelation 19:6. He brings the souls of the martyrs with Him, Revelation 19:1, and they are resurrected , Revelation 20:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Then the Marriage Feast of the Lamb takes place, Revelation 19:7[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]It takes place during the extra 75 days prophesied by Daniel 12:12. Where this feast will be, we are not told, but it cannot be in heaven, as Jesus is by then on earth, having defeated the attacking armies. Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:17-21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So there is no rapture to live in heaven for any living person, this entire theory is a false teaching, designed by Satan to confuse and delude people in these last days of this era. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 37:29 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The righteous will possess the Holy Land and will live there forever[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] Ezekiel 36:8-12 The ​Land will become fruitful and all My people will live there.[/SIZE]
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Let's look at the verses rabbi keras cites to set them right versus what he says they mean, because he is hardly credible even when quoting the Bible.

Rev 19:6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

This verse in no way means there is no Rapture to Heaven, that is just a deluded conclusion. In fact the scene in Revelation 19 is in Heaven at the time. And God will reign on earth as He reigns in Heaven, and at this particular junction, from the concluding parallel account within this book starting in ch19, Jesus is about to do battle with the forces of this world collected at Armageddon. So at this particular moment, the anti-Christ rules the world.

Rev 19:1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;

This verse says nothing about bringing the souls of martyrs with Him. Indeed, this first verse lends evidence that the Great Multitude, previously referenced inconjunction with the sixth Seal Day of the Lord (coming out of the Great Tribulation) are in Heaven. The very thing rabbi keras rails against in delusion.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The martyrs were previously referenced in the fifth Seal. In that passage, they were told to wait until their number is complete. The last two to be martyred are the Two Witnesses. Here, after the end of the one 'seven', they are made alive. This is different than the resurrection of the Dead in Christ from Paradise. The martyrs are already in Heaven, beneath the floor. Their waiting room is the first glass ceiling.

Rev 19:7. “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

This does not say it is the marriage supper of the Lamb. 'Has come', is not in the past tense, but is a summary statement of fact to be.

rabbi keras says the marriage supper cannot be on the earth, but he gives no reason for this. By the way, at the time of the end of the one 'seven' the earth is a wasteland from God's desolations. Why you would have a wedding feast amidst ruin goes against proper decorum for such a grand event of all time.

Zec14:3. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

Try to imagine having a meal, a feast even, a wonderful wedding banquet - right in the middle of a battlefield with the dead, numbering in the thousands all around you... yeah, not a pretty sight that makes for festive merriment or good appetite.

So Jesus promised the Apostles to make a place for them in His Father's house and to take them there. The Great Multitude arrive before the Father in Heaven with the sixth Seal, and can be heard - in Heaven - cheering our Lord and Champion on as He goes with His Army to fight the final battle.

Psalm 37:29 is written to he Jews whom God will save despite their disbelief in Jesus at first so that they miss the Rapture.
Ezekiel 36:8-12 is also to the Jews. We will rule with Jesus when they walk their land in the Millennium.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
[SIZE=medium]There is a lot of discussion here on when a rapture to heaven will happen, as though that idea is a foregone conclusion. [/SIZE]
Actually keras the ONLY one making that claim is you. Nobody else has claimed the raptured go to heaven. Not really sure why this simple truth evades you?
 

keras

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StanJ said:
Actually keras the ONLY one making that claim is you. Nobody else has claimed the raptured go to heaven. Not really sure why this simple truth evades you?
The simple truth is that Marcus and ATP plus most others on this forum ARE rapture to heaven believers.
Try reading the confused and derogatory posts such as #195, the desperate determination to prove their false theory forces them to make two peoples and two promises, the Jews and Christians. This idea is totally unbiblical.

Seeing as you don't believe in a rapture to heaven, why don't you support me when I point out what the prophets say will really happen?
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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It is amazing to me that some people set out to destroy what other people believe.

With as many different ways as there are to interpret Scripture, the Bible, or God's Word - and some will quibble over the least little definition and swallow a whole misconception - to set out to destroy is really a vain attempt to impose that person's will on everyone else.

Now I do not agree with those who don't "see" a Rapture, or think we're going to live on this earth hereafter.
I don't agree with Pre-Trib Rapture folk, nor do I agree with fanatical "last day" adherents.
I think Amillennialism is ignorant and Preterism is the weakest eschatology.
I don't agree with those who think somehow the Great Tribulation will last a long time.
Nor do I agree with those who think we will be covered from God's Wrath.

But I don't start out to destroy them.
I just show them where what they espouse is invalidated by the Bible or how some verse or passage conflicts with what they say.
Or I just show how what they say a verse is, isn't in the least what the Bible says. (Those people are fools.)

But to say a whole group of people are deluded by some dark force of Satan - well that's just too much.
Not when we all believe in Christ.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
The simple truth is that Marcus and ATP plus most others on this forum ARE rapture to heaven believers.
Try reading the confused and derogatory posts such as #195, the desperate determination to prove their false theory forces them to make two peoples and two promises, the Jews and Christians. This idea is totally unbiblical.

Seeing as you don't believe in a rapture to heaven, why don't you support me when I point out what the prophets say will really happen?
First of all I've never read those statements from these two and secondly I don't read them now as they are on my ignore list.
I don't condone anybody's derogatory comments, but that also can be in the eye of the person accusing such.

I don't support you because you CAN'T support yourself. Just saying the Bible says such and such does NOT make it so, but I don't know how you expect to fight against a doctrine you yourself can't even properly voice?

I believe inn THE rapture of the church, just not that we go to heaven, but I doubt making a long explanation would be of any help to you given all your vast amount of books you've written. (BTW, that is sarcasm)