Why Do You Make God Subjective?

[Truth OT]

Hebrews 11.6 is a good principle...

I get the message the Hebrew write was trying to deliver to the saints in chapters 11 and 12. It you TRUST that there is an all-powerful god and you TRUST that you know its will, then you should trust that things will work out as promised by following its will.
But even with that being said, it still doesn't show that believers asserting that they know the will of God are correct in their assertions. My question is focused on the veracity of the CLAIM that people make that they actually know God. I'm questioning the believer, I don't have to question the god they believe in.

 

[farouk]

I get the message the Hebrew write was trying to deliver to the saints in chapters 11 and 12. It you TRUST that there is an all-powerful god and you TRUST that you know its will, then you should trust that things will work out as promised by following its will.
But even with that being said, it still doesn't show that believers asserting that they know the will of God are correct in their assertions. My question is focused on the veracity of the CLAIM that people make that they actually know God. I'm questioning the believer, I don't have to question the god they believe in.

I quote the verse; it is relevant to the agnosticism which you say you profess.

Thanks for your response.

 

[marks]

It's not so much what you think about your god that I care about, but rather the idea that me not believing as you do being "sad". My inquiry is asking for justification for your assessment that my situation is somehow "sad" because I'm not convinced that there's a deity with a vested interest in me.

It saddens me that there is anyone who does not know the God I know. I'm not trying to assess your situation, I'm just sharing a feeling.

I take it that you are not inquiring about my individual existence, but rather the existence of mankind or perhaps even existence itself. The how's have been addressed and vetting and I am persuaded that I and my fellow humans are creatures of the Earth, lifeforms that evolved specifically to exist on this planet in the conditions provided by the planet.

Actually I'm asking about you, personally, the how and why that you are in existance.

It sounds that you are saying you, personally, exist purely by happenstance, and for no particular reason.

Honestly, I do not know why I exist, I just know that I exist and that I have the ability to make my existence positively meaningful to myself and others based how I live within and what I give to the societies I get to be a part of.

Is that so? What makes it so? And what qualifies something to be "positively meaningful"? Because it adds creature comforts to another? Is that all there is to meaning?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Which version or interpretation of god is correct?

That's a question you must answer.

 

[marks]

My question is focused on the veracity of the CLAIM that people make that they actually know God.

Are you looking for some kind of objective evidence? Why are you looking? Do you think that it's possible I could actually know the Creator God?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

As our friend @ScottA has pointed out, God is. You are correct, as I see it, that many people seem to paint their own subjective picture of Him. It is not God who is subjective, but men. As they get closer to Him [if they do] they will also be less often so subjective.

This remains problematic as many a faithful believer will attest that they have grown closer to God and their walk with God has become personal and intimate, yet their conception of God will differ from another believer that ever bit as fervent as them. It begs the question; God is what, exactly? In this very forum there are believer that will fight tooth and nail for their version of deity each asserting that their ideas regarding His will is accurate. In light of this, how can anyone be correct in actually KNOWING (not feeling, thinking, or believing. but KNOWING) the will of their god?

We, that is we who really are believers, are at different levels in our walk with God. Some are babies still very much on milk and therefore only able to communicate as babies. Others are on meat, but what they know, you cannot know, given where you are... as without faith you cannot even begin to understand or accept what we have:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

There are people who have really moved closer in their knowing God since first they encountered Him. This is where God wants us to be, 'moving closer'. For me He is the prime mover in my life here. Each day I must spend my time with Him. It is not all of the time as it should be but there remain some unsurrendered territories in me into which I must allow Him fuller and more continuous access.

Truth OT said:
How can you accurately discern that it is the creator of the universe as described in the Biblical writings that your prime mover?

I have been given a vision as has anyone who really has met the Master even it may presently be seen as through darkened glass, it is definite and we perish not. We have Life. There is no doubt in our heart and that cannot really be shared with someone without faith other than what you might consider to be an unsubstantiated testimony. You may not believe it... but it really is so. God does not confirm until a person has taken a real step of faith toward Him.

Faith is:
"... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

 

[amadeus]

Which version or interpretation of god is correct?

Which version or interpretation of god is correct?

God's!

How can an unbeliever understand it? He cannot. What a believer does understand can only be shared in a measure with an unbeliever. A heart truly hungry for the right things will find what it seeks:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

 

[amadeus]

I get the message the Hebrew write was trying to deliver to the saints in chapters 11 and 12. It you TRUST that there is an all-powerful god and you TRUST that you know its will, then you should trust that things will work out as promised by following its will.
But even with that being said, it still doesn't show that believers asserting that they know the will of God are correct in their assertions. My question is focused on the veracity of the CLAIM that people make that they actually know God. I'm questioning the believer, I don't have to question the god they believe in.

The veracity of their claim is established within true believers by God, but while standing on the outside you will never be able to clearly see it. No scientific method will work here.

We did not make the rules on this. God did so as to separate the curiosity seekers from those who really want the truth at any price.

 

[Truth OT]

It saddens me that there is anyone who does not know the God I know. I'm not trying to assess your situation, I'm just sharing a feeling.

Sorry you feel saddened by my different perspective. But I'm not sad or sorrowful, so no need for you to carry the burden of suddenness unless of course it somehow makes you better.

Actually I'm asking about you, personally, the how and why that you are in existance.

It sounds that you are saying you, personally, exist purely by happenstance, and for no particular reason.

I exist because my parents procreated and my mother got pregnant and ending up giving birth to a baby boy. the purpose for that transpiring is a mystery to me. Honestly, I don't think a predetermined purpose for me existing was at play at all. I was conceived, I was born, and I am here. It's up to me to give this life I'm privileged to live purpose.

Is that so? What makes it so? And what qualifies something to be "positively meaningful"? Because it adds creature comforts to another? Is that all there is to meaning?

We give things meaning, and collectively, we determine what actions and outcomes are desirable and positive and what actions and outcomes are not. For me, if I can impact my community and those I love in matters they find valuable, helpful, and beneficial, that will mean a lot to me. I find value and meaning in those endeavors.

 

[Truth OT]

Are you looking for some kind of objective evidence? Why are you looking? Do you think that it's possible I could actually know the Creator God?

Much love!

Evidence that I should believe a claim made by a person should be objective should it not?
I look for proof because so many claims of knowledge of the creator exists. I'd like to know what is true and what is not. Many varying assertions exist and they can't all be right.

 

[ScottA]

I get the message the Hebrew write was trying to deliver to the saints in chapters 11 and 12. It you TRUST that there is an all-powerful god and you TRUST that you know its will, then you should trust that things will work out as promised by following its will.
But even with that being said, it still doesn't show that believers asserting that they know the will of God are correct in their assertions. My question is focused on the veracity of the CLAIM that people make that they actually know God. I'm questioning the believer, I don't have to question the god they believe in.

Not trusting a "believer" or even an innumerable amount of "believers", is completely reasonable. But are you unaware of the fact that many do not "believe", but actually "know" of what they speak?

 

[Truth OT]

The veracity of their claim is established within true believers by God, but while standing on the outside you will never be able to clearly see it. No scientific method will work here.

We did not make the rules on this. God did so as to separate the curiosity seekers from those who really want the truth at any price.

It sounds like believers are the ones making the rules and then CLAIMING their god did. You mentioned TRUE BELIEVERS and I must ask you to define this term so we can come to an understanding of who qualifies to you when you say this. Do believers that don't consider other believers true Christians qualify? Do Jehovah's Witnesses who love God qualify? Do Adventists Christians qualify? Or is qualification restricted to a particular kind of believer?

 

[Truth OT]

Not trusting a "believer" or even an innumerable amount of "believers", is completely reasonable. But are you unaware of the fact that many do not "believe", but actually "know" of what the speak?

I am unaware my friend. Who are these knowers and how can they PROVE they KNOW?

 

[marks]

Evidence that I should believe a claim made by a person should be objective should it not?
I look for proof because so many claims of knowledge of the creator exists. I'd like to know what is true and what is not. Many varying assertions exist and they can't all be right.

So what sort of proof would satisfy you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am unaware my friend. Who are these knowers and how can they PROVE they KNOW?

This is more clear.

How can I prove to you that I know the Creator God? Naturally I can't. You must make the decision for yourself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry you feel saddened by my different perspective. But I'm not sad or sorrowful, so no need for you to carry the burden of suddenness unless of course it somehow makes you better.

Thank you for your concern, but not to worry! It's not about being better, or carrying a burden, just that we have feelings, do we not? Why not share them?

I exist because my parents procreated and my mother got pregnant and ending up giving birth to a baby boy. the purpose for that transpiring is a mystery to me. Honestly, I don't think a predetermined purpose for me existing was at play at all. I was conceived, I was born, and I am here. It's up to me to give this life I'm privileged to live purpose.

I understand.

We give things meaning, and collectively, we determine what actions and outcomes are desirable and positive and what actions and outcomes are not. For me, if I can impact my community and those I love in matters they find valuable, helpful, and beneficial, that will mean a lot to me. I find value and meaning in those endeavors.

This seems a little ambiguous to me. Could you give an example? Do you mean in terms of helping others meet their physical needs, and being able to utilize their talents better, to increase their prosperity, like that?

I want to make sure I understand what you mean here.

Personally I feel these 2 questions to be the most important for any to answer, how and why am I here? My answer is that I was made personally by a Creator, and for the purpose of being His family.

Much love!

 

[Truth OT]

God's!

How can an unbeliever understand it? He cannot. What a believer does understand can only be shared in a measure with an unbeliever. A heart truly hungry for the right things will find what it seeks:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

How can you say that someone who doesn't believe as you do can or cannot understand that what you believe to be right is in fact right? You are making the claim that you know the will of and have a relationship with the very creator of existence and I'm saying; "yeah right, demonstrate that you do." Since you don't know how to go about providing reasonable and convincing evidence, you retort is, "you wouldn't understand if I told you." What a cop out that is.
Your stance is in essence, "what I feel is right, so the creator of the universe is with me because I believe He exists. If you believed he exists you would know I was telling the truth but because you don't believe what I do about him, you can't know." You are creating a game and writings rules where head you win and tales I lose.

If someone tells you the square root of 1000 is 31, would you believe them if someone else said it was 32? What about if a 3rd person said 1000 doesn't have a whole square root; would you believe that person? Maybe you wouldn't take any of them at their word and instead ask for them to demonstrate why THEIR CLAIM is based in truth. In such a setting would you accept the answers you provide for YOUR faith about all things deity related?

 

[Truth OT]

This seems a little ambiguous to me. Could you give an example? Do you mean in terms of helping others meet their physical needs, and being able to utilize their talents better, to increase their prosperity, like that?

I want to make sure I understand what you mean here.

Personally I feel these 2 questions to be the most important for any to answer, how and why am I here? My answer is that I was made personally by a Creator, and for the purpose of being His family.

Much love!

Examples of what's meaningful for me as it relates to what I bring to others include:

- being a good friend
- being a reliable and dependable person
- helping someone unlock and reach their potential
- bringing a smile to a sad situation
- helping people recover from a loss
- being an good example to my children so that in the event they end up behaving as I do, they will be productive citizens their family can be proud of
- helping people build and protect their family's wealth

I'm here for all of the above as I find being able to provide those things to be meaningful and valuable. It wouldn't matter if my progenitor was a peasant that was cruel, ignorant, and can no concern for my well-being or if my progenitors were of the most powerful and noble descent that birthed me with the intent on making me an heir to their riches, my purpose would still be one I'd have to carry out and decide upon and the things above would matter to ME whether the progenitors planned for them or not.

 

[marks]

Examples of what's meaningful for me as it relates to what I bring to others include:

- being a good friend
- being a reliable and dependable person
- helping someone unlock and reach their potential
- bringing a smile to a sad situation
- helping people recover from a loss
- being an good example to my children so that in the event they end up behaving as I do, they will be productive citizens their family can be proud of
- helping people build and protect their family's wealth

I'm here for all of the above as I find being able to provide those things to be meaningful and valuable. It wouldn't matter if my progenitor was a peasant that was cruel, ignorant, and can no concern for my well-being or if my progenitors were of the most powerful and noble descent that birthed me with the intent on making me an heir to their riches, my purpose would still be one I'd have to carry out and decide upon and the things above would matter to ME whether the progenitors planned for them or not.

That's a pretty good list!

Why are these things important do you suppose?

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

I am unaware my friend. Who are these knowers and how can they PROVE they KNOW?

I know of the "knowers", because I am one :)

I came to know there is a God before ever believing anything either way: I had a storybook childhood (not easy, but good and wonderful). Then after experiencing growing up, marriage, children, my own business, achieving award winning accomplishments in my career...I was a victim of crime, and my wonderful life came tumbling down like a house of cards. After knocking on all other doors, I came to open the god door, calling out to Him...and lo and behold--He answered. I was caught up in the spirit above the earth and shown many things, and then in an instant I was back in my body and experienced a great sense of peace. Life changed--I was changed. Within a couple of weeks I came to be in my brother's spare room, where I found a bible. I was drawn to it. I picked it up and started reading and couldn't put it down. I read if from cover to cover, barely stopping for food, or sleep; because what I found was that the Author of that book I had never known, without a doubt was also the Author of my experience. The One confirmed the other, and vice versa.

So...I know. I also know by that experience that the Bible is not just a literary book written by men, but rather a compilation of written witnesses just like myself down through the ages, not by the providence of men, but by God.

But, I will caution you, short of the same happening to you--that is all the proof you are going to get in this lifetime. After that, it will be too late. The point being...is that we are not suppose to be deflected by the lack of proof, but gravitate toward that which we will choose. As it is written: "I have placed before you life and death, therefore, choose life."

So--the damage is done. Now you must choose.

As for the varying answers you hear: If you listen to all from any school, from the most elementary to the most learned...Yes, indeed, the variations will seem endless. But that only speaks of those individuals and their place, not of the truth. If you have not liked all the variations, all the more reason not to practice conjecture and opinion as many obviously do. And, Yes, there is a reason why these things are so. All in due time.

All the best to you!