Why Do You Make God Subjective?

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amadeus

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It sounds like believers are the ones making the rules and then CLAIMING their god did. You mentioned TRUE BELIEVERS and I must ask you to define this term so we can come to an understanding of who qualifies to you when you say this. Do believers that don't consider other believers true Christians qualify? Do Jehovah's Witnesses who love God qualify? Do Adventists Christians qualify? Or is qualification restricted to a particular kind of believer?
I don't exclude anyone because of what group to which they do or do not belong. That is not my job nor yours. Some people may believe that it is theirs, but God knows.

The definition of the term "True believers" is simply a phrase I use to talk with people including you in order to communicate at all. God does not need a word or phrase to understand a man's heart.

You are still approaching this based on the proof which one of us can or cannot provide. If you were really interested in advancing yourself toward God I would be willing to help. Your interest is either obtaining what you would accept as proof that there is or there isn't. If you were paying attention you would understand why your approach will never work. If you will only accept proof as you define it, you will never progress in any positive way as I see it. If you are choosing to go your own way, you are wasting your time and ours on this forum. There is only one Way to God and you have missed the turn...

Your purpose here is suspect as you only want to proceed using your own ways which are man's ways. We, the "true believers", are seeking to walk along His Way. This is only possible as He lights our pathway before us. I told you what was needed, but you are not interested.
 
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amadeus

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How can you say that someone who doesn't believe as you do can or cannot understand that what you believe to be right is in fact right?
I can say I know because God placed in my heart the ability to know. To transfer that bit of knowledge which started with faith and continues to grow through faith requires faith. If you cannot follow that pathway there is nothing I can do. Only God gives any real increase in such things. You are not interested in traveling the pathway He has provided. So live with what you have and leave this place to do that. God allows that for the time period you have.

You are making the claim that you know the will of and have a relationship with the very creator of existence and I'm saying; "yeah right, demonstrate that you do." Since you don't know how to go about providing reasonable and convincing evidence, you retort is, "you wouldn't understand if I told you." What a cop out that is.
I did not say "you wouldn't understand if I told you". That was another person speaking with you on this thread. You should keep such things straight to conduct a reasonable discussion. There are enough unknowns and enough confusion without that. As to demonstrating that I have a relationship with God, I demonstrate as Jesus did to the Pharisees of old via the prophet Jonah. You don't understand that? Well, neither did they and He would not explain it because they like you were not really interested in the answer. You already have decided what the answers are, so why bother to ask... unless your purpose is other than to really encounter truth.

Your stance is in essence, "what I feel is right, so the creator of the universe is with me because I believe He exists. If you believed he exists you would know I was telling the truth but because you don't believe what I do about him, you can't know." You are creating a game and writings rules where head you win and tales I lose.
God does not play such games and neither do I. You want to use man's logic to obtain answers which do not fit the framework of that logic, for God certainly does not.

If someone tells you the square root of 1000 is 31, would you believe them if someone else said it was 32? What about if a 3rd person said 1000 doesn't have a whole square root; would you believe that person? Maybe you wouldn't take any of them at their word and instead ask for them to demonstrate why THEIR CLAIM is based in truth. In such a setting would you accept the answers you provide for YOUR faith about all things deity related?

Mathematics won't accomplish your goal either. Simply stated it is here:

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

Now go away leave us alone until and if you decide you would really like to meet God on His terms. Don't come to us or to Him with your own definitions and conditions for negociations. God does not negociate.

The following verse is another freebie if you are able to understand it:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
 

marks

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Now go away leave us alone until and if you decide you would really like to meet God on His terms.

Hi @Truth OT ,

Just to be clear . . . this does not include me.

I'm perfectly happy to discuss God, if He exists, and Who He might be, should you wish.

Much love!
 

Truth OT

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I can say I know because God placed in my heart the ability to know.


Not much a person can say to that. They can either believe you or think you've misled. I of course would ask YOU for evidence that God did what YOU CLAIM he did, but I know how that goes.
For the record, I'm not questioning what an all powerful god can do, but I am questioning whether what YOU SAID was done by God was actually done by God.


As to demonstrating that I have a relationship with God, I demonstrate as Jesus did to the Pharisees of old via the prophet Jonah. You don't understand that? Well, neither did they and He would not explain it because they like you were not really interested in the answer. You already have decided what the answers are, so why bother to ask... unless your purpose is other than to really encounter truth.


I doubt you can do what Jesus is said to have done in the gospels. As it pertains specifically to what you referenced regarding the sign of Jonah being in the belly of a fish and Jesus being DEAD in the Earth for 3 days then walking among the living thereafter, c'mon man don't flatter yourself, you ain't doing that.

God does not play such games and neither do I. You want to use man's logic to obtain answers which do not fit the framework of that logic, for God certainly does not.
......Simply stated it is here:


"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

Now go away leave us alone until and if you decide you would really like to meet God on His terms.

If an all powerful entity exists, I have little doubt that its ways would be higher than mines. However, I'm not talking about its ways, I'm talking about what YOU SAY. You claim to be led by this entity and yet can't provide evidence that YOU are. All you seem to be doing is affirming YOUR BELIEF that you are and YOUR affirmations are NOT evidence.
So again please understand that I am questioning YOU. I want to be clear about that because you seem to be confusing yourself and your position with the god you claim to have a relationship with.
 

shnarkle

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The concept of my God, with the emphasis on MY is something believers would do well to give more attention to as God is so many different things to different people. In my interactions, it's quite common that people paint God as benefactor that has designed existence for the good of the specific believer. This god is a creation of the desires of the believer as opposed to what is written in the Biblical text and this egocentrically created god is more prevailent than Bible God in our society. So many will assert they know God, (and I suppose they do because he's a mental construction in their respective minds), but have no to very little familiarity with the scriptures.

I'm not sure if you might be presenting a little tongue in cheek here with your claim to give more attention to your concept of God. You bring up a number of good points, but again, I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but God has to be subjective because God cannot objectively exist in the first place. This isn't to say that God is the product of one's imagination, but to spotlight that God is the subject of reality while the created world is the object. The bridge between the two is Christ, and he places us in that same contingent position when his spirit comes to subjectively dwell within each one of us. The subject cannot dwell objectively in the created world because the created world is physical while the spirit is spiritual.

When the spirit is seen in the new creation, it is the new creation that is objectively seen, not the spirit. We see the effects of the spirit, but not the spirit itself. The spirit has no sense of self.
 

Truth OT

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The subject cannot dwell objectively in the created world because the created world is physical while the spirit is spiritual.

When the spirit is seen in the new creation, it is the new creation that is objectively seen, not the spirit. We see the effects of the spirit, but not the spirit itself. The spirit has no sense of self.

This statement, as eloquent and appealing as it sounds, lacks evidence that it is anything more than an assertion on your part. What can be done to test YOUR ASSERTION against reality tosee whether it has merit?
 

marks

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The subject cannot dwell objectively in the created world because the created world is physical while the spirit is spiritual.

Why not?

The created world is actually both physical and spiritual. Or shall I say, creation itself. Not just the world.

The proof that the creator can live in the creation as part of the creation . . . Jesus.

Much love!
 

shnarkle

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This statement, as eloquent and appealing as it sounds, lacks evidence that it is anything more than an assertion on your part. What can be done to test YOUR ASSERTION against reality tosee whether it has merit?

You can test it however you please. It is logically, empirically, and rationally correct and coherent.
 

shnarkle

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Why not?

The created world is actually both physical and spiritual. Or shall I say, creation itself. Not just the world.

You, as a subject do not objectively live in the world. Only your persona is objectively presented to the world. This is an empirical fact. Even your identity doesn't actually exist as anything more than an idea.

The proof that the creator can live in the creation as part of the creation . . . Jesus.

Much love!

Jesus is an incarnation. Jesus objectively exists in the world. God as origin does not enter objectively into the created world. Jesus points this out by stating he came from the father, and will return as well. When Jesus points out that to see the son is to see the father he is again pointing out that this cannot happen unless one abandon their separate identity. One must remove their persona. They must deny themselves. This is what allows one to reflect God rather than themselves.
 

marks

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You, as a subject do not objectively live in the world. Only your persona is objectively presented to the world. This is an empirical fact. Even your identity doesn't actually exist as anything more than an idea.
OK, I get it. Nevermind.
 

Nancy

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That is EXACTLY what I mean. They cherry pick what they like about God in scripture, omit what they aren't confortable with, and add in traits they like that aren't based in scripture thus creating a god according to their own values and desires.

I know so many people who seem to think they can create their own God...they have no basis for their erroneous beliefs, it's all their own imaginations! What's needed is for all to know His character. As we know, He never changes but, it's crazy ridiculous but I also understand these are the ones who have been blinded by the god of this world...so many I pray for the blinders to be removed, hearts and minds changed and eyes to see the Truth, no matter what! I pray for a growing insatiable hunger for them to know Him, for real!
 
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Episkopos

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This remains problematic as many a faithful believer will attest that they have grown closer to God and their walk with God has become personal and intimate, yet their conception of God will differ from another believer that ever bit as fervent as them. It begs the question; God is what, exactly? In this very forum there are believer that will fight tooth and nail for their version of deity each asserting that their ideas regarding His will is accurate. In light of this, how can anyone be correct in actually KNOWING (not feeling, thinking, or believing. but KNOWING) the will of their god?

Good thoughts! I like your logic. And this very logic destroys most of what is called Christianity these days. But not all. I leave it to you to investigate the difference.

Think about this....why would so many fake the knowledge of a God who doesn't exist?

For every counterfeit...there is the real thing. What you have seen up till now no doubt is the counterfeit. The "American Jesus" or the "American Christianity."
 

shnarkle

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Truth OT said:
What can be done to test YOUR ASSERTION against reality tosee whether it has merit?

Let's look at the empirical fact that your identity is nothing more than an arbitrary, abstract construction of the mind. You, your family, neighbors, and the government associate this identity with your physical body, but the fact is that it isn't your physical body. It's who you think you are, but who you think you are clearly can't be who you actually are. It's literally nothing more than an idea that will die along with your body. It is your sense of self which began to develop a few short months after you were born.

What if someone came along during this time, and instead of supporting this socially accepted endeavor, began to point out that you are not a separate individual at all. What if they pointed out that those who believe they are separate individuals are literally engaging in a deception. They are literally contradicting themselves. They are walking talking oxymorons. Oxymorons are blatantly absurd, and yet we accept these contradictory assertions without a thought. They are blatant affronts to reality.

Now that we know you are not who you think you are, we can look at the fact that you don't actually reflect yourself. So who do you reflect? If you continue to claim that you reflect yourself, then you are simply reflecting an abstract idea. There is no good reason to do this because it is based exclusively upon an assertion that we all know is nothing but a blatant fabrication of the mind.

Cast it off immediately, and look at who remains because it can't be who you think "you" are.

More importantly, the fact that you have no real identity, and no real means of establishing one puts you in a somewhat disturbing position where you have no real means of establishing or verifying the claims of others to begin with. You can't even establish or validate who you think you are.

Your subjective awareness can only identify with your objective persona which is nothing but a concept. As closely related as identification is to identity; identification is not identity.

This term "spirit" refers to what doesn't come from these silly ideas we identify with. When one ceases to identify with these oxymoronic concepts of self, there remains a sense of selflessness. One begins to see the objective known world on one end of the spectrum, and a subjective knowing at the other end. In the middle is no longer a persona, but an awareness of being known from the subjective knowing as well as an identification with it rather than what can be known. It is a shift in the other direction.

This is not a matter of belief or faith. This is easily observable for anyone who decides to earnestly ignore or abolish their sense of self.
 

Truth OT

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Now that we know you are not who you think you are, we can look at the fact that you don't actually reflect yourself.

That has not been established. Again, an assertion surmising that who one thinks they are, can't be who they actually are. Where's the proof for such an assertion?

Not to delve too far into the realm of philosophy but it sounds like part of what you wrote addresses the idea that what someone is is not the same as who that someone is.
 

Truth OT

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Think about this....why would so many fake the knowledge of a God who doesn't exist?

Good day! I don't think most people are actively engaging in deceit or are trying to fake anything. People genuinely believe in what they believe in. Beliefs give comfort, hope, and provide answers (not necessarily correct ones) to things yet unknown. Those are valuable things for people.
One need not actually know someone to THINK they know them. Hearsay, implanted assumptions, as well as things like confirmation biases all can play a part in us coming to accept that we have a "knowledge" that in actuality, we do not have.
 

shnarkle

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That has not been established. Again, an assertion surmising that who one thinks they are, can't be who they actually are. Where's the proof for such an assertion?

The proof is in the fact that an epistemological activity is not an ontological state, nor can it establish an ontological state. When Descartes famously claimed, "I think therefore I am", he assumed the thoughts he had were his own. This is the fallacy of Begging the Question. Neither he, nor you or I have any reason to assume that an arbitrarily constructed abstract identity is who we actually are. It is literally nothing more than an idea. While it may be a real idea, it certainly isn't anything more than that, and there's no way to prove where this (or these) idea comes from. You can't possess it anymore than you can possess anyone else's ideas.

Not to delve too far into the realm of philosophy

This isn't about philosophy. This is about the fact that who you think you are can never be who you actually are. You have an identity that is literally nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind formed while still in one's infancy.

but it sounds like part of what you wrote addresses the idea that what someone is is not the same as who that someone is.

Correct. If you are a physical body, then you cannot have a physical body. If you have a physical body, then you cannot be a physical body. Many people identify with their body. They will literally say, "I am my body". They are equating the first person singular verb to be with the genitive of possession. It is grammatically incorrect, as well as a persistent delusion. You cannot be what you possess.

Do demons know this? Are they hiding this fact? Regardless, science clearly spotlights this fact which you are unable to meaningfully deny.

Therefore, who is left to reflect? Moses, Christ, and perhaps even Popeye would all say, "I AM".
 
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Nancy

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The concept of my God, with the emphasis on MY is something believers would do well to give more attention to as God is so many different things to different people. In my interactions, it's quite common that people paint God as benefactor that has designed existence for the good of the specific believer. This god is a creation of the desires of the believer as opposed to what is written in the Biblical text and this egocentrically created god is more prevailent than Bible God in our society. So many will assert they know God, (and I suppose they do because he's a mental construction in their respective minds), but have no to very little familiarity with the scriptures.

"God is so many different things to different people."
That's fine but, it does not ever change His character and He never changes...He is solid and DOES what He says He will. His Character is the same throughout the Bible.
"as benefactor that has designed existence for the good of the specific believer. "
Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

God is all in all, He wishes that none should perish...I know Christians who are poor, living on very little and then we have the unbeliever who is blessed with all kinds of "material" things. Those have their reward but, it is a drop in the bucket concerning eternal fellowship with the creator.

"So many will assert they know God, (and I suppose they do because he's a mental construction in their respective minds), but have no to very little familiarity with the scriptures."
Well, it certainly seems that you have NO familiarity with the Scriptures. How can you claim that "most" believers "...but have no to very little familiarity with the scriptures." ?
Your eyes have been blinded by the god of THIS world.
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4.
I too was quite blinded for most of my life...humility and being totally open to His truth is what is called for. Taste and see that He is GOOD.
He is faithful, hugely faithful...and, without faith, it is impossible to please Him.
Just ask Him to reveal Himself to you, believing He will...and He most surely will.

"So many will assert they know God, (and I suppose they do because he's a mental construction in their respective minds)"
You will find out if and when you believe what He says...pray in sincerity, and watch Him work.
Hoping and praying for the best for your soul. I find it much harder to NOT believe after all the ways I have seen Him work...it really is supernatural...
God Bless






 

Truth OT

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Well, it certainly seems that you have NO familiarity with the Scriptures. How can you claim that "most" believers "...but have no to very little familiarity with the scriptures." ?

I make the claim because it's true. People, and yes most who proclaim to be Christians don't know the Bible, have never read it cover to cover, and are at best only familiar with "memory verse" texts.

Well, it certainly seems that you have NO familiarity with the Scriptures.

As far as who I am as it relates to scriptural knowledge. I have read, studied, and used the "sword" for decades until I found that it fell short. The below was once me:

I Am So Weird.........
TRUTH over TRADITION
A Systematic Break Down of the Bible
 

Nancy

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I make the claim because it's true. People, and yes most who proclaim to be Christians don't know the Bible, have never read it cover to cover, and are at best only familiar with "memory verse" texts.



As far as who I am as it relates to scriptural knowledge. I have read, studied, and used the "sword" for decades until I found that it fell short. The below was once me:

I Am So Weird.........
TRUTH over TRADITION
A Systematic Break Down of the Bible

You can read and study until the cows come home and you are doing it with your own understanding. Without the Holy Spirit, you will have only your own take on the living word of God. You are using your own intellect here IMO, and that never brought anybody into all truth.
 
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Truth OT

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If you are a physical body, then you cannot have a physical body. If you have a physical body, then you cannot be a physical body. Many people identify with their body. They will literally say, "I am my body". They are equating the first person singular verb to be with the genitive of possession. It is grammatically incorrect, as well as a persistent delusion. You cannot be what you possess.

I guess an agreement must be reached as it pertains to what "you" actually means or what a person means when using the term. When I use the term I am referring to the "entirety of the person." This would include the personality, thoughts, as well as arms, legs, and height.
I wouldn't say that a person has a physical body as much as the physical body is the person and from that physical body thoughts, memories, self perceptions, etc. arise. No evidence that I'm aware of in our shared reality suggests that there can be a person absent of a body. Evidence suggests that the PERSONality emanates from and is a product of the body. The brain is after all physical.