I agree Robbie, rejecting Christ is rejecting salvation and many are still rebelling. I also agree that one should not form a belief structure on one or two scriptures.
Why Does God Damn People To Hell If He Is All Loving?
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I agree Robbie, rejecting Christ is rejecting salvation and many are still rebelling. I also agree that one should not form a belief structure on one or two scriptures.
As I said before, if you're right I can't lose. If I'm right you can, forever. Eternity is a very long time.
You forgot the scriptures that support "If people aren't saved when they die they NEVER will be. It's now or NEVER folks."
Yes everyone will be judged by God at some point after they die but this scripture does not say or even support that "it's now or never". Got any others?
If you choose to gamble with your eternal state, that's up to you. Not me.Yes everyone will be judged by God at some point after they die but this scripture does not say or even support that "it's now or never". Got any others?
Duckybill...that's when the multitudes come in. We need to understand
what Jesus actually done for us and the whole world.
The whole of creation is part of God's household. Though it is not yet
reconciled to Him, yet has He conciliated the creation by His blood.
Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:18,
18 Yet all is of God, who conciliates us to Himself through
Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to
Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing
in us the word of the conciliation. [Concordant Version]
The word translated “conciliated” is katallasso, which is a one-sided
cease-fire in a war. When both sides stop fighting, there is reconciliation,
as foreseen by Paul in Col. 1:20,
20 and through Him to reconcile [apo-katallasso] all things
to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His
cross.... [NASB]
First God has conciliated the world to make peace by taking the first
step. The goal, however, is reconciliation. In the interim, we have been
given the ministry of the conciliation, authorizing us to tell the Good
News to the world that God has conciliated them. We are to appeal to
them to respond and thus be reconciled to Him.
Colossians 1:18-20 makes it clear that the purpose of the conciliation
is “ to reconcile all things to Himself.” Will God succeed? Or is this
mere wishful thinking? Is God able to fill the whole earth with His glory?
Or is man's will capable of withstanding and stopping God's intent?
God is sovereign, and He is well able to accomplish His purpose for
creation. No man's will can thwart His plan in the end. It is only a matter
of time before all men bow their knees to Him and swear allegiance to
Him to the glory of God the Father (Is. 45:23; Phil. 3:10, 11).
God will save no one until they bow their knees to Him. But there will be
no unbelievers at the Great White Throne, where every knee will bow.
The traditions of men say that it will then be “too late,” but there is not a
single verse in the Bible which teaches such a thing.
It is true that it will be too late at that time to avoid “the lake of fire,” but
that judgment is neither torture nor eternal. It is a time of learning
righteousness (Is. 26:9) and it is only for an age (eonian) until such time
as the Creation Jubilee cancels all debt to sin, and every man returns to
his inheritance in God.
This great Jubilee will mark the final end of all sin and opposition to God
and His plan. All things will then be reconciled to Him fully, and God will
be “all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28).
All men died in Adam and were in need of redemption and reconciliation
through Christ. Christ died for all, and has purchased the whole world by
His blood. All will thus come to Him in time, and peace will reign in His
House.
Logabe
My eternal state doesn't rest in anything that I have done but rather what Christ has done for me.
Sorry folks, but the "everlasting fire" is EVERLASTING.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Do you happen to know where this everlasting fire is located?
Very good post Logabe.
Sorry Duckybill but all means all.
tomwebster
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Robbie
New Member
The fire could be everlasting and people wouldn't necessarily need to be in it forever... not saying that's how it is but just pointing that out...
How long has the sun burned for? Does the length the sun burns mean that's how long people are effected by it?
When people leave the earth are they still burned by the sun?
So I guess if people left the everlasting fire... even though the fire still burned it wouldn't be burning them.
Not saying that's how it is... but just pointing that out...
tomwebster
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A consuming fire "consumes utterly," turned to ashes forever and ever, the smoke rises forever and ever.
Robbie
New Member
But I don't think God is the fire it's talking about when it talks about the, "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" God wasn't prepared... since God has no beginning and no end...
In this place it talks about people suffering loss in Fire but still being saved, "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
In this place it talks about people suffering loss in Fire but still being saved, "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
I do understand what you are saying, unfortunately, it goes against scripture.
Rev 14:10-12 [font="'Times New Roman"] [sup]10[/sup] they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. [sup]11[/sup] And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” [sup]12[/sup] This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.[/font]
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[font="'Times New Roman"][/font][font="'Times New Roman"]I do agree that they must be provision for redemption. That is exactly what Jesus did on the cross. He provided for redemption for everyone. Every man, woman, and child ever conceived, will have the opportunity to either accept this redemption, or reject this redemption. Think about it like this. Take a bond servant. Who or what is a bond servant. Let's look.[/font]
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[font="'Times New Roman"]Exo 21:2-6 [/font][sup]2[/sup] [font="'Times New Roman"]“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. [sup]3[/sup] If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. [sup]4[/sup] If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.[/font][font="'Times New Roman"] [sup]5[/sup] “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ [sup]6[/sup] then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.[/font]
[font="'Times New Roman"]This servant was offered his freedom. His freedom was a gift from God, pre-ordained in his Law. But the servant willingly rejected his freedom, and so remain in bondage for the rest of his life, without the opportunity for release. [/font]
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[font="'Times New Roman"]In the same way, God has graciously offered us our freedom from the Satan. But it is our choice to accept it or reject it. And if we totally reject it, then their remains no other provision provided by God, as seen in Rev 14.[/font]
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[font="'Times New Roman"]Joshua David[/font]
Tell us, if you know. Where is the everlasting fire?
Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
[sup]49 [/sup]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [sup]50 [/sup]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Don't be sorry for me. Either way I win. How about you?Sorry Duckybill but all means all.
Robbie
New Member
Let me give you a different take on this bond servant that
has his ear nailed to the DOOR. Ex. 21:5 & 6 says,
5 But if the slave plainly says, I love my master,
my wife and my children; I will not go out as a
free man,
6 then his master shall bring him to God, then
he shall bring him to the door or to the doorpost.
And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl;
and he shall serve him permanently.
If a man came to love his redeemer, he might not want to
leave. It is obvious that the redeemer treated the man as a
mature Christian ought to do. Such will be the case in the
general resurrection, when God places the sinners under
the authority of now-mature Christians who know how to
rule with love and perfect justice. Their example will cause
their slaves to come to a higher level of understanding. The
slaves will not work for their masters because they have to
do so, but rather because they want to do so.
Such slaves no longer desire their own inheritance, but want
only to be part of their Master's inheritance. When the law of
the Master is written on their hearts, they return to have their
ear bored to the door. The meaning of this law is made
apparent by Jesus' words in John 10:9, where He said, “I am
the door.” To be joined to the Door means to be joined to
Christ. To have one's ear pierced in this manner signified the
opening of the ear, so that the believer could hear His voice.
Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice” (John 10:27). When
such slaves return to their Master to be joined to the Door,
they come saying (Psalm 40:6-8),
6 Sacrifice and meal offering Thou hast not
desired; my ears Thou hast opened; Burnt
offering and sin offering Thou hast not required.
7 Then I said, Behold, I come; in the scroll of the
book it is written of me;
8 I delight to do Thy will, O my God; Thy law is
within my heart.
Bond servants of Jesus Christ have been joined with Him, and
they are the sheep who hear His voice. They understand that
God does not really desire burnt offerings or sin offerings, but
rather that the sheep hear His voice. They come, not because
they are compelled, but because it is their delight to do the will
of their Master. They are in agreement with Him, and so the law
is within their heart and not merely enforced by an external, or
outward, decree.
Those who submit themselves as permanent bond slaves in this
manner are those who become the fully mature sons of God.
Jesus said in John 8:34-36,
34 . . . Truly, truly I say to you, every one who commits
sin is the slave of sin.
35 And the slave does not remain in the house forever;
the son does remain forever.
36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall
be free indeed.
Jesus was referring to the law of the bond slave returning to have
his ear nailed to the door. Jesus says that the mere slave does
not remain in the house forever, because the law mandates that
he be set free at some point. But “the son does remain forever.”
And those slaves who return to remain in the Master's house
forever are made sons. This is the path to true freedom, because
when the Son makes the bond slave free, he has true freedom in
Christ. This signifies the freedom that one has when one is no
longer the slave of sin.
What a God!
Logabe
Free will represents a delegation of the authority of God to man. It is God's perfect will that none perish but all receive eternal life, but it is also God's choice to let us choose that life; and it is in God's perfect will to give us that choice. Jesus asked the cup be taken away from Him, but also said not my will but yours be done to His father. God has submitted his best intentions to our choice, which only is a display of His sovereignty to choose that His will be accomplished in this way.
Is it God's perfect will that there is sin in the world? But if we let Him, then God will make perfect that which is imperfect. He will use what is against His perfect will to become a part of His perfect will. But that which is left in part will pass away.
Is it God's perfect will that there is sin in the world? But if we let Him, then God will make perfect that which is imperfect. He will use what is against His perfect will to become a part of His perfect will. But that which is left in part will pass away.
The final age is characterized by the "lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14, 15. This
"fire" is the judgment of the law upon sinners. The law was made for
lawbreakers (1 Tim. 1:9). God gave the "fiery law" to Moses (Deut. 33:2).
Daniel saw this fire coming out of the throne of fire (Dan. 7:9, 10) where
it was pictured as a fiery stream. John pictures it as a lake of fire, but
the symbolism is the same.
Ezekiel 47 and Rev. 22:2 picture it as a river of life coming from the
throne. Fire pictures the law. Water focuses upon its life-giving quality
as the Word of God. Both cleanse and rejuvenate. The fire burns out
the dross; the water washes it away. The laver is the "molten sea" in
1 Kings 7:23 and also the sea of glass and fire (Rev. 15:2).
The point is this: at the Great White Throne Judgment, all men are
raised for judgment by the divine law. The unbelievers will be
sentenced to be slaves of believers, who inherit the earth. The earth,
I believe, will be divided among the believers, and the unbelievers
will serve them as slaves. For what purpose? To evangelize them--to
teach them righteousness in the best possible setting. They will be
able to see the loving character of Christ manifested in their masters.
The sin of the sinners will be reckoned as a debt, but because they
have nothing with which to pay their debt, they will be sold into biblical
slavery.
Isaiah 26:9 says that they will then learn righteousness. The law will
be imposed, maybe even severely at first, but once they have learned
to respect the law (word) of their master, less and less force will be
needed. The sinners will be obedient, and their character will begin
to change. Ultimately, there will be no need for law, for all will know
Him from the least to the greatest. This is the ultimate secret of the
law: its goal is its own self-elimination.
Logabe
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