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Why does Jesus...

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Joyful, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    Calvinists are claiming OSAS. If so, why does Jesus warn His seven churches in the book of Revelation to be faithful to Him until the end?
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    whats OSAS?
     
  3. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (kriss;9817)
    whats OSAS?
    It is an abbreviation for "Once Saved, Always Saved". I am sure Swamp fox can explain to you much better than I.Calvinists believe that those who will be saved, will be saved no matter what (decided even before they were born). They are almost the same thing.
     
  4. Bamp;#39;midbar

    Bamp;#39;midbar New Member

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    OSAS has the basic flavor of once you believe in Jesus or are saved, then you cannot lose that salvation no matter what happens afterwards. Even if you sin or whatever, you will still be saved. You might hear the phrase "eternal security" connected with it. One of the most common verses associated with it is from Romans 8 about neither height nor depth separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.In basic Calvinism, described by the acronym TULIP, the P stands for perseverance of the saints. The U stands for unconditional election. Often the P and OSAS are thought to be the same thing, but it depends on who you talk to. A person who holds to the P might say that if someone falls away, it was because they were never saved to begin with. A person who holds to OSAS would likely say of a sinner that they are still saved, even though they don't appear Christian anymore. It really depends on who you are talking to.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Faithful1;9816)
    Calvinists are claiming OSAS. If so, why does Jesus warn His seven churches in the book of Revelation to be faithful to Him until the end?
    Now that I understand the question a little better I can try to answer I think this is poppycock doctrine more of the feel good lies of men you have no responsibility if you just accept Christ. Not everyone is of the Elect. God states he shortens the time if he did not even the very elect would be fooled into following after the beast. So all are in danger Just accepting Christ one time in you life is not enough. all are in danger of believing Satan's lies because of the great delusion/deception.this seems another case of taking a verse or two and man twisting it to say what they want and ignoring the rest of Gods word that is contrary to it. There is no contradiction in Gods word and this is contradictory.
     
  6. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Kriss, care to support that with scripture?
     
  7. Goshen

    Goshen New Member

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    What about the scripture that states "faith withoutworks is dead" If one becomes born again with thespirit of God would one want to continue in hissinful ways?Goshen
     
  8. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    What do you do with the sinful men at Corinth whom the Apostle Paul addressed as Carnal, and in Chapter 11 where some of the Christians were dieing because of their sinfulness? Secondly, please, quote scripture and show how you are coming to your conclusions with those portions of scripture. It's difficult to work with:
    What about the scripture that states "faith withoutworks is dead" If one becomes born again with thespirit of God would one want to continue in hissinful ways?
    Thanks.Writer
     
  9. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Scriptural Documentation: Matthew 24:45-51Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:19-20Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Three times total in the one chapter. Think God's trying to tell us something? I do. Finally, this one is addressed to you writer: Hebrews 6:4-7For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (writer4hisglory)
    Kriss, care to support that with scripture?
    (Goshen)
    What about the scripture that states "faith withoutworks is dead" If one becomes born again with thespirit of God would one want to continue in hissinful ways?Goshen
    Goshen that is so true. When a person becomes born again, that person would likely not to continue there sinful ways.Writer the OSAS doctrine is so deceiving and it is made by man. And I don't need a scripture to support this common sense. For ensample, When I accepted Jesus into my heart, I became saved... Now if I turn my back on my Saviour and I became a wiccan (an example) and never want Him again...then I am going to say that I was never truly saved at all...therefore the OSAS doctrine needs to be discarded.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.Jordan
     
  11. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Scriptural Documentation:Matthew 24:45-51Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.James 2:19-20Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?James 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Three times total in the one chapter. Think God's trying to tell us something? I do.Finally, this one is addressed to you writer:Hebrews 6:4-7For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    Finally! Something I can work with. It may take a few days before I get the time to post my response, but I will work on this. Thank you, Swampfox.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (thesuperjag;10034)
    Goshen that is so true. When a person becomes born again, that person would likely not to continue there sinful ways.Writer the OSAS doctrine is so deceiving and it is made by man. And I don't need a scripture to support this common sense. For ensample, When I accepted Jesus into my heart, I became saved... Now if I turn my back on my Saviour and I became a wiccan (an example) and never want Him again...then I am going to say that I was never truly saved at all...therefore the OSAS doctrine needs to be discarded.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.Jordan
    I could not agree with you more superjag as we are told over and over that we are to love the lord. Just being once saved is not enough we must continue to love him. Walk in his ways,fear or better said revere him.These are feelings just being saved or reading scripture as a set of rules,without love, and reverance is not love. Deu 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him; --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I could not agree with you more superjag as we are told over and over that we are to love the Lord. Just being once saved is not enough we must continue to love Him. Walk in His ways,fear or better said revere him.These are feelings just being saved or reading scripture as a set of rules,without love, and reverance is not love. Deu 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him; --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
    And more...Deuteronomy 6:5 - And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.Deuteronomy 7:9 - Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;Even our Lord Jesus Christ quotes some of these scriptures.Matthew 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.Mark 12:30 - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
     
  14. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    This is by no means a challenge, as one only need to look at the context of the passage and understand that the Lord is speaking here of His second coming and the coming judgment, and not of salvation. My response to:Matthew 24:45-51As always, it is best to go back further than the presented passage to ensure that one has a firm grasp of the context at hand. Is Christ making a prescription for a way of Salvation, or a way to lose it? I say no. In fact, I say that Salvation is not the context of this passage at all! What is the context? Let’s take a look. The context of the passage is the “End of the Age” and the “Coming” of Christ as King over all the earth, namely the millennial reign of Christ:
    Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
    The issue is not that of salvation, but of the second coming of Christ and the establishment of the Kingdom, which the Disciples were now beginning to understand would not occur in Christ’ first advent. Does Christ make mention of Salvation throughout the passage? The answer is no. What does He make mention of? 1. A warning is given that they should not be deceived by those who would claim to be the Christ. (David Koresh?) v.4,52. Wars and rumors of wars will be heard of, but the disciples of Christ are not to be troubled, for these things must come to pass, but the end is still yet to come. V.63. Nations will rise against nation. There will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes. This is most likely referring to the period of tribulation (not the topic of discussion). V. 7,84. Great tribulations will come to those who believe. False prophets will rise up and deceive many. This characterizes the current age, but will escalate as the return of Christ nears. And finally, the end will come (whether this means Christ’ return for the Kingdom or the start of Tribulation, I am not yet sure.) v.9-145. It is apparent that verses 15-22 are in reference to the Great Tribulation, and that the abomination of desolation is to be the Anti-Christ. Those who are still present in Judea are warned (by Christ, Himself!) to flee! 6. 23-26 are further warnings against the deceptions of those who claim either to be the Christ or those who claim that Christ is returned without notice, but the following verses show that the return of Christ will be without mistake in recognition. 7. 29-31 The Return of Christ, and the Gathering of the Elect still present on the earth. 8. Christ presents a fig tree as an illustration to show that when the end is near, it will be unmistakable to those who are looking for the signs presented here. 32-359. Just as the days of Noah were, so shall the end time be, when, although the warnings are prevalent, there will be those who are willingly ignorant of the coming King, but they will be finally aware of it when Judgment is carried out. 10. Verses 40-44 are not to be construed as to be in reference to the rapture, rather as those who are being taken, as those who are being taken in judgment. Only those who are saved will enter into the Millennial Kingdom, not unbelievers. Those who have thus far rejected Christ as their Savior will be taken in Judgment and cast in the hell in waiting for the final judgment. And finally! The parable of the good steward! Now, what have we been reading about thus far? Have we been reading about the way to salvation? No, we have been reading about the judgment. A Parable is often offered to further explain what was just said. What did Christ just finish speaking of? The taking up in judgment. We know, or at least I assume that it is common knowledge, that no unsaved person shall enter into the Kingdom when Christ returns, thus a temporary judgment, before the final judgment day, is carried out against those who do not believe in verses 40-44, and I say that these are the same objects of the parable presented below. Let me show what I mean:45“Who then is a faithful and wise servant(nations v.30, Rev 20, they shall be destroyed before the millennium), whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?The servant here can be meant in one of two ways: either it can mean the nations, as seen in v. 30, which although I certainly see place for it, I wouldn’t be so quick to jump to that conclusion, or it can mean the individual. However, keep in mind where we are at. We are at the threshold of the Kingdom, and no unsaved person shall enter, also keep in mind that this is a parable, in other words, it is a story with a meaning to clarify what was previously stated. 46Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.Who is this servant? It would, as you would agree, be the saved individual that is watching for the return of Christ, and as a result, living in accordance to it. This is not to say that they are saved by their works. No, rather, their works show their faith in Christ (an issue to be dealt with later in the James 2 passage). You may be thinking that you have me in a bind here, but such is not the case, for these are saved, but they obviously do not lose their salvation, as they are rewarded. 48But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.No doubt, this is the epitome of your argument with this passage. But what does this prove? Is this the same servant mentioned just a verse before? Obviously not, as the one before is rewarded and does not lose anything. So who could this evil servant be? We are all entrusted to some degree, whether saved or unsaved, with a stewardship from God, whether that is a stewardship with our time, money, family, resources, or if nothing else, our body. We are told that the unsaved will give an account in Revelation 20 for the way that they lived their life. Why would they give an account if they were not accountable to God? Does that not sound similar to these verses here? This evil servant, though he does not expect the soon return of his master, still belongs to his master. Those who do not expect the soon return of the Lord in His second coming, will still be held accountable regardless of the fact that they did not believe that He was actually going to return. This is not a saved person, nor is there any indication that this person was ever saved in this passage! The only way that man could be held accountable is if man was given a stewardship of something, and as shown, we are all given a stewardship, whether saved or unsaved. Thus the unsaved person here does not enter into the Kingdom of God, but rather, is cast into hell until the final judgment on Judgment day in Revelation 20. I hope that this makes sense. This is not a passage about Salvation, rather, it is a passage about the coming judgment and the second Advent of our dear Lord. I still have yet to study out the following passages. Right off, without getting any further than I have, I do not believe that James 2 is about salvation either, but I shall have to prove my case, as is expected. Hebrews, that will be a tougher one, but I believe that it is a hypothetical statement, and not an actual happening, but again, I shall have to prove my case when I come to it. Take a look at the following passages:Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus1 Corinthians 3:10-15 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.John 10:27-30 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one.”Curious as to how one could not derive that salvation is completely based upon the work of the Lord and cannot be lost, especially from the 1 Corinthian passage. But then again, perhaps I am not reading in between the lines as I ought to be, that is, if I were blessed with the divine touch of understanding. I will get to the other two when I have time.Writer. To be addressed. James 2:17-26Hebrews 6:4-7
     
  15. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I'm very familiar with Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark 13 and Luke 21. The issue is indeed the second coming and I never stated to the contrary. Never have, never will. However, the example here holds the same. The blessed ones are the ones found doing the work, not the ones that claim to be saved and the know-it-alls that sit around every Sunday morning and in life in general doing nothing. We're supposed to work right up until the very end. The verse is not blessed is he that was chosen, it's clearly blessed is he that is working. As a true child of Christ refined in the fire, one should always desire to do his work. I find it quite funny that you're the one who chides others about the use (or lack thereof) of Scripture. Twist away on the rest of the responses when you have the time. Remember that salvation is but just a part of the armor: Ephesians 6:13-17Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: But what!? The exact same phrase appears in I Thessalonians when Paul speaks about the second coming of our Lord! Imagine that: I Thessalonians 5:8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, We have indeed been chosen and God's free flowing grace has fallen upon us. However, as it says, no matter how it's perverted, faith without works is dead. God grants us what we can handle. Hebrews 5:9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
     
  16. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    However, the example here holds the same. The blessed ones are the ones found doing the work, not the ones that claim to be saved and the know-it-alls that sit around every Sunday morning and in life in general doing nothing. We're supposed to work right up until the very end. The verse is not blessed is he that was chosen, it's clearly blessed is he that is working. As a true child of Christ refined in the fire, one should always desire to do his work.
    Where in the passage does the servant claim to be saved? Where in the passage do you see this as referring to those who are just sitting around at Church, as you put it, doing nothing?
    I find it quite funny that you're the one who chides others about the use (or lack thereof) of Scripture.
    Please tell me where I have lacked the use of scrupture where needed? Show me where you want scriptural support in my response and I will try to find it.
    Twist away on the rest of the responses when you have the time.
    Where am I twisting? Please, do tell.
     
  17. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Where in the passage does the servant claim to be saved? Where in the passage do you see this as referring to those who are just sitting around at Church, as you put it, doing nothing?
    Common sense, to be blunt about it. However, which verse would you like me to document that says we are servants of the Lord? There are quite a few. If Jesus is not talking about someone who is saved, what exactly is he talking about? I'm real curious about the answer to that one. Paul servant of Christ: Galatians 1:10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. I Corinthians 7:22For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Looking back at your post, I see where you're going with this. No one here has stated that works alone save the person, so let's not play that game at all. Works are merely an extension, exactly as James said when faith without works is dead. You make a similar claim yet seem to be suggesting that OSAS, to use the term of the original OP, holds true for those that sit around on their hands and doing nothing? How do we know these people to saved? Only God knows that. If it's taking you a day or even hours to explain around "faith without works is dead" then I think there is a problem. It's definitely not with God's Word either.
     
  18. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    I have already addressed that question in my post regarding Matthew 24. You can read it, my answer is still the same.
     
  19. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    And you chide me for being out of context. The subject of Matthew 24 remains unchanged. It's not about the millenium, its about the coming of Christ and the parable speaks to the servant that is present at his return. You're reaching so far outside of Scripture I'm losing you.
     
  20. writer4hisglory

    writer4hisglory New Member

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    Prove it. With Scripture.
     
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