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Why I believe in the Harpazo

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Trekson, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Why I believe in the Harpazo!​
    ([SIZE=8pt]I really mean the rapture but I don’t want to ruffle any feathers :ph34r: [/SIZE] )​
    Some people deny the harpazo simply because they deny many of the false doctrines that can accompany the word, but that’s like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. One can’t deny the reality of scriptural thinking just because other people teach falsely about it. So what exactly are we talking about?

    1Thess. 4:16-17 – “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    The second highlighted part is the only thing the word “harpazo” means, to be caught up! Some may say that teaching about the harpazo is a new thing from the 18th century, but this verse dismisses that notion. It’s been taught since before the bible as we know it was written! Here is what an early church father had to say about the harpazo:

    Tertullian - "Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured/harpazoed?) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, (1 Cor. 15:50-51) to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

    This proves that the concept of the modern day “harpazo” as we know it, is not new and has been around for almost 2000 years.

    Is this exampled elsewhere in the bible? Why yes it is.

    Acts 8:39 – “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”

    2 Cor. 12:2-4 – “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

    And of course we have the examples of Enoch and Elijah from the OT, so the concept of being “caught up” is real, it’s biblical, it’s factual and not as easily dismissed at some would like it to be. I also believe the concept of the harpazo is implied elsewhere in scripture as well. Such as:

    John 14:2-3“ In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

    Notice there is no mention of a resurrection here.

    Then we have this picture that Christ paints of his return in Matt. 24:30-31 – “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    Again there is no mention of a resurrection of the dead. It’s my opinion that this scripture perfectly describes the angel’s promise found in Acts 1:11 – “ Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

    I think this accurately shows the first phase of His second coming because the second phase has a completely different picture attached to it.

    Rev. 19:11-16 – “ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.”

    Some have said that if you want to truly understand the harpazo then you have to understand the resurrection. My answer is, Why? Living beings are not “resurrected”, transformed yes, resurrected, no. We know based on 1 Thess. 4:16 that there is a resurrection of the dead in Christ in concert with the harpazo but does that include OT Israel? I don’t know.

    It’s not a big deal that the harpazo isn’t mentioned in the OT because it didn’t concern them at that time. It is simply a further revelation that Paul taught, at the appointed time. The pre-wrath belief is that Rev. 7:9 shows the resurrected/harpazoed church arriving in heaven and this is a separate group from those depicted in Rev. 19:7-8.

    To sum up, I believe in the harpazo, but not because:
    1. I see it as a form of escapism. In fact, pre-wrath believes that the great trib is upon the church, not the world in general. We see it as the wrath of satan as depicted in Rev. 12:17. It is a period of short duration within the context of the 70th week that we believe is “cut short” (Matt. 24:22) by the harpazo, (Matt. 24:31) that is why those of Rev. 7:9 are described as coming out of the great trib.
    2. I view it as an act of dispensationalism. Typical dispensationalists see an eternal separation between Israel and the Church, sometimes described as the bride of God and the bride of Christ, respectively. I do not. I believe God is more than capable of dealing with Israel and the Church simultaneously. I do see a future destiny for some of Israel, the 144,000+, for example, but one of ultimate unity not eternal separation as described in my Body vs. the Bride post.
    I simply believe in the harpazo because the bible teaches about the harpazo and I believe in the bible as God’s word. It really is as simple as that!
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Any idea or theory that humans ever go to live in heaven, God's dwelling place, is false, for two main reasons:
    1/ No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven.... John 3:13
    2/ None of the scriptures used by those who believe in a rapture, actually say anyone goes to heaven. John 14:2-3 does NOT say those 'mansions' are in heaven. Matthew 24:30-31 ...He will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Heavens, meaning sky, atmosphere; not the heaven.

    When Jesus Returns, He is coming down, 'in like manner as He departed', so the 'harparzo' as described in 1 Thess 4:16-17 never mentions heaven and why should it? It is merely a meet and greet scenario. Jesus is coming the earth for His 1000 year reign, the saints who have been killed will be resurrected and His people who are still alive will reign with Him from Jerusalem.

    Trekson, I'm sorry but a 'rapture' out of this fallen world IS escapism. Perhaps you don't agree with some of the more fanciful notions, like sitting on a cloud strumming harps and looking down on the earth in turmoil, but you still think you won't have to face trials and testing. Sorry again, I could quote dozens of scriptures saying 'everyone will be tested'. Luke 21:35, 1 Peter 4:12

    What most just can't seem to see, is the great promises of God to His righteous people. How they will be gathered and will go to live in all of the holy Land in peace and prosperity, being at last, a 'light to the nations' and preparing for the coming Kingdom. This is the Day we should all be looking forward to: you are to invite one another to come and sit under your vines and fig trees. Zechariah 3:10

    And when it all washed up and the 7000 years of the human experiment is over, those who have proved worthy WILL live in heaven, but that heaven will be on earth. Rev 21:1-4
     
  3. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Keras, Your words: "Trekson, I'm sorry but a 'rapture' out of this fallen world IS escapism."

    If you read the post thoroughly you would see that I believe the church will be here for the great trib and that the great trib is upon the church and not the world in general. They are reserved for wrath which is NOT the great trib, so escapism is not in view anywhere in my post!

    Yes, I do believe in heaven. I believe that is where God's throne is, where Christ is seated at his right hand as described in various passages from Rev.1-Rev.5 and where the immortal will reside. Imo, the earth is for the living but we'll be able to travel as the angels do from one plane to the other in the blink of an eye.

    Some things we just have to accept by faith. The amount of knowledge we are given is just a drop in the ocean of all the available knowledge out there.
     
  4. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    That’s not what this is all about. Looking back at the sum of the recent posts in these forums, no one has ‘denied the harpazo’ -- because this is not about “the harpazo.”

    Rather, this is about the folly of attaching an unscriptural label (i.e. “rapture”) to a scriptural reality (i.e. an eternity with God).

    The born again child of God is not found in the murky pre-trib “rapture” theory “bathwater.” Many still do not understand the vital importance of not mixing what is holy with what is profane.

    Again, we are not to blend truth with fiction. You have added the unscriptural word “rapture,” with all its unbiblical baggage, to Tertullian’s words here.

    All of which leads to the following red herring:

    Again, we are not debating “the harpazo,” a Greek word which simply means catch, catch up, catch away, take by force, pluck, or pull.

    ”The harpazo” is NOT the resurrection and NOT eternity with God, and it’s certainly NOT the fictional pre-trib “rapture.”

    I smiled with optimism when I saw your OP, yet the conflict is still obvious. I believe you are born again and so obviously want to do the right thing, but you seem fixated on the worldly conditioning and canned responses common to the pre-trib “rapture” heresy. That unbiblical baggage will cripple your walk with God and cause you much confusion.

    Neither of those passages has anything to do with a so-called “rapture” or even the resurrectiion.

    That is a common reponse of a rapturist -- and the implication is a fabrication. To keep this reply to less than book size, I’ll simply finish with the true story of Enoch and Elijah, as per scripture.

    Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.

    Based on Hebrews 11:5, 13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?

    Let us examine the bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:

    Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."

    Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."

    The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:

    Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?

    Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."

    Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.

    Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?

    Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.

    So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.

    Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12; "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?

    But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!

    The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.

    Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!

    At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?

    Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."

    So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22, 24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.

    The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3, 17, 19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here are other examples:

    Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future.

    Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near future, no man shall hurt him.

    Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.

    Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.

    "harpazo" "is merely a meet and greet scenario." Simple. Very simple.
     
  5. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi S4C, You are applying principals to a word that are irrelevant to what the word “rapture” implies.

    Your words: “That’s not what this is all about. Looking back at the sum of the recent posts in these forums, no one has ‘denied the harpazo’ -- because this is not about “the harpazo.”

    Yes it is, because harpazo = rapture. Harpazo = caught up, Rapture = caught up, in modern day Christian usage.

    Your words: “Rather, this is about the folly of attaching an unscriptural label (i.e. “rapture”) to a scriptural reality (i.e. an eternity with God).”

    The word “rapture” has zero to do with an eternity with God. It is simply the term we use to describe the movement of a living being from point A to point B using spiritual or supernatural means. Period.

    Your words: “The born again child of God is not found in the murky pre-trib “rapture” theory “bathwater.” Many still do not understand the vital importance of not mixing what is holy with what is profane.”

    There is nothing “profane” about a word. You keep adding “pre-trib” to the word “rapture”. Stop it. They are not the same. It’s like we’re arguing about the timing of a Sunday afternoon football game. Some say 1:00, some say 4:00, some say 2:30, some even say it’s not a Sunday game, it’s Monday night. Does the time really matter? No, the game will still be played. Rapture = the game. Timing is irrelevant, duration is irrelevant and even point B is irrelevant to what the word ‘rapture” implies which is simply the method of transportation, i.e “caught up”.

    Your words: “Again, we are not to blend truth with fiction. You have added the unscriptural word “rapture,” with all its unbiblical baggage, to Tertullian’s words here.”

    There is no unbiblical baggage on my end. You seem to want to add all these things which don’t really apply to the common meaning of the word.

    Your words: “Again, we are not debating “the harpazo,” a Greek word which simply means catch, catch up, catch away, take by force, pluck, or pull.”

    To me, that is all the word, “rapture” implies.

    Your words: “The harpazo” is NOT the resurrection and NOT eternity with God, and it’s certainly NOT the fictional pre-trib “rapture.”

    There is a resurrection taught in scripture coinciding with the harpazo. I never said it implies an eternity with God although that is the end result no matter what you call it. Pre-trib is fictional I agree because I never use that term to describe my pov. The word “rapture” is just a word describing a harpazo type event.

    Your words: “I smiled with optimism when I saw your OP, yet the conflict is still obvious. I believe you are born again and so obviously want to do the right thing, but you seem fixated on the worldly conditioning and canned responses common to the pre-trib “rapture” heresy. That unbiblical baggage will cripple your walk with God and cause you much confusion.”

    Not meaning any disrespect here but you are the only one associating “heresies” with the word “rapture”. I am not. Again, “pre-trib” has zero to do with the description of being “caught up” which we call the rapture.

    Acts 8:39 – “And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.” [and]
    2 Cor. 12:2-4 – “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

    Your words: “Neither of those passages has anything to do with a so-called “rapture” or even the resurrection.”

    I agree totally. They are both describing a person being moved from point A to point B using spiritual or supernatural means which is THE ONLY THING the word ‘rapture” implies!!! However, as the word rapture is the same as being “caught up” the wording…”such a one was raptured to the third heaven”, would not be out of line with what the word ‘rapture” means. The word “rapture” is ONLY the Anglicized version of the Latin word “rapere” or “rapturo” depending on your source, which is simply the Latin translation of the Greek word “harpazo”!

    Regarding Enoch and Elijah, death or resurrection is irrelevant. If one was to use the word “rapture” regarding their “disappearances” , it is simply describing the movement of a person from point A to point B using spiritual or supernatural means!! I hope I’ve used this phrase enough so you understand what I mean when I use the word “rapture”.

    Your words: “Based on Hebrews 11:5, 13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?”

    Regarding the emboldened part, either destination could be reached via rapture.

    Regarding John 3:13, it’s really not that important as Christ hadn’t died yet, so that statement is only as true until His resurrection. It’s highly likely that paradise is in a location other than heaven.


    Your words: “Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!”

    I agree that the word “rapture” does not mean to be made immortal. It is just a method of translation. However, the fact that we do become immortal upon translation as taught in 1 Cor. 15 is a by-product of God’s design. I agree that the “act” of being “raptured” has nothing to do with the immortality part.

    Your words: “The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3, 17, 19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision.”

    Agreed, however I believe the “future” timing of that vision was very soon after Christ’s resurrection.

    Your words: “Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.”

    You are assuming the “promise” was of resurrection.

    Your words: “"harpazo" "is merely a meet and greet scenario." Simple. Very simple.”

    It leads to so much more that, I feel kind of sorry for those who feel we are doomed never to leave this earth.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Trekson feels sorry for those who think they will never leave the earth.
    As God never says anyone will go anywhere else, who you should feel sorry for is yourself and those who hold to false teachings, instead of reading and understanding the great promises of God to His righteous people. Promises of protection and then going to live in all of the holy Land:

    Jeremiah 33:6-14 See this Land: it lies in ruins, inhabited by neither man or animals. Yet in this place, once more will be heard the sounds of joy and happiness, for I will restore the fortunes of My Land and people. The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised to them.
    Isaiah 30:18 The Lord is waiting to show you His favour. He yearns to have pity on you, for the Lord is full of justice. Happy are you who wait on Him.
    Isaiah 54:4-10... For a passing moment I forsook you, but with tender affection I shall bring you home again....My covenant promising peace will not be shaken.
    Hosea 2:14-23 But now I shall woo her and restore her vineyards. I shall betroth her to Myself, making her faithful, they will know the Lord. Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will show love to Israel and Judah and say to them ‘You are My people’. They will say ‘You are our God’.
    Hosea 14:4-7 I shall heal My peoples apostasy and love them freely, for My anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel that they may flower and put forth shoots. I am the tree that shelters you; your prosperity comes from Me.
    Isaiah 52:6 On that Day My people will know My name and know that it is the Lord who speaks, here I am.
    Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore, I shall save My flock and they will be ravaged no more....... You are the flock that I feed and I am your God.
    Isaiah 65:24=25 Even before My people call to Me, I shall answer. Neither hurt nor harm will be done in all of My holy Land.
    Zechariah 8:13-15 To the nations, you Judah and Israel have been as a curse, now I shall save you and you will become a blessing. Courage! Do not lose heart.
    Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I am the Lord and when white hairs come, I will carry you still. I have made you and I shall uphold you. I shall carry you away to safety.
    Psalm 105:43-44 The Lord led out His people in triumph. He gave them lands of the heathen nations for their possession.
    Isaiah 65:20-23 My people will build and plant for themselves, they will enjoy the fruit of their labour. They will be as long lived as a tree.
    Jeremiah 31:23-28 ...The days are coming when I shall sow Israel and Judah with the seed of man and the seed of livestock. As I inflicted disasters upon them, now I shall watch over them to build and to plant.
    Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.
    Psalm 147:2-3 The Lord gathers the scattered Israelites, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.
    Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.
    Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.
    Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.
    Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
    Ref: REB. Some verses abridged
     
  7. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Keras, With the exception of your Rom. 8:18 verse, they are all prophecies for Israel. The church IS NOT Israel and in my opinion, our destination is far greater.
     
  8. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    Why waste a single post, attempting to defend the use of a word of the world -- rapture? Others are watching and reading, so it's important that we not compromise our witness.

    Be aware that all cult systems have misappropriated religious terminology for their own advantage.

    It is the assumption of the existence of the so-called “rapture” that is part of the problem. Indeed, if someone says they believe in the “post-tribulation rapture,” they are still putting forth the existence of the “rapture,” in that they are characterizing the legitimacy of the term, even in a post-trib context. Conversely, if you say you believe in the second coming, you are saying essentially the same thing -- but you are saying it in a fashion that does not tend to validate the existence of the fraudulent concept itself.

    And it wouldn't matter if we separated out "rapture" from "pre-trib rapture," as both remain unscriptural terms. If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist, and then sought to study it.

    Catholicism, with its corrupt Latin Vulgate, is a major component to the "harpazo -to-rapture" bugaboo and then, as we agree, the quantum leap to resurrection.

    Words have a tremendous impact on us. Whatever words we utter should be chosen with care for people will hear them and be influenced by them for good or evil. The basic tool for the manipulation of truth is the manipulation of words. If one can control the meaning of words, one can control the people who use those words. Likewise, the basic tool for the preservation of truth is the preservation of God's words. If one understands the meaning of God's words, we can more easily recognize those who try to manipulate and control others through deception and the altering of the definitions of words.

    Some claim that the words we speak aren’t that important. But if it’s not important, why does scripture prohibit "vain babblings" (1 Timothy 6:20, 2 Timothy 2:16), "evil communications" (1 Corinthians 15:33), and "filthy communication out of your mouth" (Colossians 3:8)?

    Proverbs 12:18, "...the tongue of the wise is health."

    As in the health of the body, a doctor can often assess our state of health by looking at our tongues; so too in the spiritual realm. James tells us that the way a man uses his tongue is a test of his spiritual strength (James 1:26). He also says that if a man can control his tongue he is a perfect man (James 3:2). Jeremiah was told by the Lord that he could be God's mouthpiece only if he was careful about the way he used his tongue - if he separated the precious from the vile in his conversation (Jeremiah 15:19). Therefore, we should be very careful about the words that we choose to speak.

    1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

    It is so very important, as the above passage states, to not speak the words that we have been conditioned to speak by the spirit of the world (by what man's wisdom has taught us); but to speak the words which the Holy Spirit has taught us (to speak in a spiritual manner). These words are contained in the Holy Scripture, which are for our "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). And "rapture" is not contained in the Holy Scripture.
     
  9. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    The Church is,and has always been Israel

    Israel is the Christian Church. The Christian Church is Israel. The Christian Church does not replace Israel, it is Israel and always has been Israel. The New Testament writings reveal clearly that there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect whether Jew or Gentile by birth. It is impossible to cut a straight course in the Word of truth until we grasp the concept that there is only one Israel of God.
    ​​
    OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE, IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH


    THE BELOVED OF GOD
    A) Israel Is Beloved Of God:
    - Ex. 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11
    B) Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God:
    - Lev. 3:16, Jer. 12:8, Jer. 16:5, Hos. 9:15
    C) Christians Are Beloved Of God:
    - Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1



    THE CHILDREN OF GOD
    A) Israel Are The Children Of God:
    - Ex. 4:22, Deut. 14:1, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 63:8, Hos. 11:1
    B) Disobedient Israel Are Not The Children Of God:
    - Deut. 32:5, John 8:39, 42, 44
    C) Christians Are The Children Of God:
    - John 1:12, John 11:52, Rom. 8:14,16, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:5,6,7, Phil. 2:15, 1 John 3:1



    THE FIELD OF GOD
    A) Israel Is The Field Of God:
    - Jer. 12:10
    B) Christians Are The Field Of God:
    - 1 Cor. 3:9



    THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
    A) Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
    - Psa. 78:52, Psa. 80:1, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1,2,3, Jer. 31:10, Eze. 34:12,15,16, Mic. 5:4, Zec. 10:3
    B) Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
    - John 10:14,16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Pet. 2:25, 1 Pet. 5:2,3


    THE HOUSE OF GOD
    A) Israel Is The House Of God:
    - Num. 12:7
    B) Christians Are The House Of God:
    - 1 Tim. 3:15, Heb. 3:2,5,6, Heb. 10:21, 1 Pet. 4:17



    THE KINGDOM OF GOD
    A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
    - Ex. 19:6, 1 Chr. 17:14, 1 Chr. 28:5
    B) Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
    - Matt. 8:11,12, Matt. 21:43
    C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
    - Rom. 14:17, 1 Cor. 4:20, Col. 1:13, Col. 4:11, Rev. 1:6



    THE PEOPLE OF GOD
    A) The Israelites Are The People Of God:
    - Ex. 6:7, Deut. 27:9, 2 Sam. 7:23, Jer. 11:4
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God:
    - Hos. 1:9, Jer. 5:10
    C) The Christians Are The People Of God:
    - Rom. 9:25, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 4:12, Eph. 5:3, 2 Th. 1:10, Tit. 2:14



    THE PRIESTS OF GOD
    A) The Israelites Are The Priests Of God:
    - Ex. 19:6
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God:
    - 1 Sam. 2:28,30, Lam. 4:13,16, Eze. 44:10,13, Hos. 4:6, Mal. 2:2,4,8,9
    C) The Christians Are The Priests Of God:
    - 1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10



    THE VINEYARD OF GOD
    A) Israel Is The Vineyard Of God:
    - Isa. 5:3,4,5,7, Jer. 12:10
    B) Christians Are The Vineyard Of God:
    - Luke 20:16



    THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
    A) Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
    - Isa. 54:5,6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hos. 1:2
    B) Disobedient Israelites Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
    - Jer. 3:8, Hos. 2:2
    C) The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
    - 2 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:31,32



    THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
    A) The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham:
    - 2 Chr. 20:7, Psa. 105:6, Isa. 41:8
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham:
    - John 8:39, Rom. 9:6,7, Gal. 4:25,30
    C) The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham:
    - Rom. 4:11,16, Gal. 3:7,29, Gal. 4:23,28,31



    THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
    A) The Israelites Are The Chosen People:
    - Deut. 7:7, Deut. 10:15, Deut. 14:2, Isa. 43:20,21
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People:
    - Deut. 31:17, 2 Ki. 17:20, 2 Chr. 25:7, Psa. 78:59, Jer. 6:30, Jer. 7:29, Jer. 14:10
    C) The Christians Are The Chosen People:
    - Col. 3:12, 1 Pet. 2:9



    THE CIRCUMCISED
    A) The Israelites Are The Circumcised:
    - Gen. 17:10, Jud. 15:18
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised:
    - Jer. 9:25,26, Rom. 2:25,28, Phil. 3:2
    C) The Christians Are The Circumcised:
    - Rom. 2:29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11



    ISRAEL
    A) Israel is Israel
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites:
    - Num. 15:30,31, Deut. 18:19, Acts 3:23, Rom. 9:6
    C) The Christians Are Israel:
    - John 11:50,51,52, 1 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 6:15,16, Eph. 2:12,19



    JERUSALEM
    A) Jerusalem Is the City And Mother Of Israel:
    - Psa. 149:2, Isa. 12:6, Isa. 49:18,20,22, Isa. 51:18, Lam. 4:2
    B) Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians:
    - Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22



    THE JEWS
    A) Israelites Are Jews
    - Ezr. 5:1, Jer. 34:8,9, Zech. 8:22,23
    B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews:
    - Rom. 2:28, Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9
    C) The Christians Are Jews:
    - Rom. 2:29



    THE NEW COVENANT
    A) The New Covenant Is With Israel:
    - Jer. 31:31,33
    B) The New Covenant Is With The Christians:
    - Luke 22:20, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:6,8,10



    AN OLIVE TREE
    A) Israel Is An Olive Tree:
    - Jer. 11:16, Hos. 14:6
    B) The Christians Are An Olive Tree:
    - Rom. 11:24


    Can't be any clearer......
     
  10. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi N2, Your words: “Can't be any clearer......”

    I don’t know where you copied this from or if it is original with you but the author of this conglomeration of verses has played, “fast and loose” with many of them or he didn’t really understand what he was talking about as in many of them the meanings which are “suggested or implied” have little to do with what the verses are actually saying. However, there are many I am in agreement with but the end result doesn’t make us Israel. For now, I’ll just copy the titles I agree with, that both Israel and the church share:

    THE BELOVED OF GOD, THE CHILDREN OF GOD, THE FIELD/VINEYARD OF GOD, THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH, THE PEOPLE OF GOD, THE PRIESTS OF GOD, THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM (BY FAITH ONLY), THE CHOSEN PEOPLE, (ENJOYERS OF) THE NEW COVENANT (We don’t become the new covenant), THE CIRCUMCISED (though there is a difference between the physical and the circumcision of the heart)

    We share these attributes with Israel not because we become Israel but because we are adopted into God’s family by our faith in Christ. Our ‘adoption” gives us all the legal and spiritual claims and promises that Israel had. Not all of Israel had these rights either just those who remained in the family of faith.

    The following are not well researched.

    [SIZE=9pt]THE HOUSE OF GOD[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Israel Is The House Of God:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Num. 12:7[/SIZE]
    Christians Are The House Of God:
    -
    [SIZE=9pt]1 Tim. 3:15[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Heb. 3:2[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]5[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]6[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Heb. 10:21[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 Pet. 4:17[/SIZE]

    Num. 12:7 is speaking of the tabernacle, not Israel in general. 1 Tim. 3:15 is speaking of the meeting place for Christians, Heb. 3:2 is the same as Num. 12:7 (See Num. 12:4, 10, they are speaking of the tabernacle), Heb. 5:7 is irrelevant to this description, however Heb. 10:21 and 1 Pet. 4:17 both agree that the CHURCH is the House of God.


    [SIZE=9pt]THE KINGDOM OF GOD[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Ex. 19:6[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 Chr. 17:14[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 Chr. 28:5[/SIZE]
    Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
    -
    [SIZE=9pt]Matt. 8:11[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]12[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Matt. 21:43[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Rom. 14:17[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 Cor. 4:20[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Col. 1:13[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Col. 4:11[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Rev. 1:6[/SIZE]

    None of the OT verses say that Israel is the kingdom of God. 1 Chr. 28:5 comes close but the exact wording is that Solomon will “sit upon the throne of the kingdom of God over Israel”. Solomon as king became God’s representative of the kingdom of God to Israel. The NT verses do not say that Christians are the “kingdom of God”, they say that we “dwell in” and are “representatives of” the kingdom of God. These difference may sound minor to you but they are important to a correct interpretation of who we are in Christ.

    [SIZE=9pt]THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Isa. 54:5[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]6[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Jer. 2:2[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Eze. 16:32[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Hos. 1:2[/SIZE]
    Disobedient Israelites Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
    -
    [SIZE=9pt]Jer. 3:8[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Hos. 2:2[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]C) The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]2 Cor. 11:2[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Eph. 5:31[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]32[/SIZE]

    I don’t deny that Israel has been described as the wife or bride of God, but the NT never says the church is the “bride” of Christ. That is just an assumption arrived by many because Paul happened to use marriage as an allegorical comparison to the union we as believers should have with Christ.

    [SIZE=9pt]ISRAEL[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Israel is Israel
    Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites:
    - [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Num. 15:30[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]31[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Deut. 18:19[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Acts 3:23[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Rom. 9:6[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]C) The Christians Are Israel:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]John 11:50[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]51[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]52[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 Cor. 10:1[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Gal. 6:15[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]16[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Eph. 2:12[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]19[/SIZE]

    There is only one NT verse in your list that actually uses the phrase “Israel of God” and that is Gal. 5:16. The rest of them do not imply what you want them to. The difference is, Israel is a nation and the “Israel of God” is a spiritual “type” of Israel, not an actual form of Israel.

    [SIZE=9pt]JERUSALEM[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Jerusalem Is the City And Mother Of Israel:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Psa. 149:2[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Isa. 12:6[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Isa. 49:18[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]20[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]22[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Isa. 51:18[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Lam. 4:2[/SIZE]
    Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians:
    -
    [SIZE=9pt]Gal. 4:26[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Heb. 12:22[/SIZE]

    None of your OT references uses the phrase “Mother of Israel” and even if they did, they would be referencing an “earthly” Jerusalem, while the NT verses refer to the Jerusalem ‘above” (the NJ), they are not the same.

    [SIZE=9pt]THE JEWS[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Israelites Are Jews
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Ezr. 5:1[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Jer. 34:8[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]9[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Zech. 8:22[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]23[/SIZE]
    Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews:
    -
    [SIZE=9pt]Rom. 2:28[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Rev. 2:9[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Rev. 3:9[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]C) The Christians Are Jews:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Rom. 2:29[/SIZE]

    In Rom. 2:29, Paul IS NOT calling Christians, Jews. He is explaining how Jews remain or are removed from the family of God by their faith or lack thereof. In vs. 28, he is teaching that just because one obeyed the law and got physically circumcised, it wasn’t sufficient “proof” that they were accepted of God but that circumcision of the heart and the spirit or, in the words of Christ, they must be “born again”. Just being a Jew wasn’t sufficient. Paul would not contradict himself. He teaches in several areas we are neither Jews nor Gentiles, we are one (without the labels) in God’s family. He would not then suggest all Christians become “Jews”!

    [SIZE=9pt]AN OLIVE TREE[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]A) Israel Is An Olive Tree:
    -
    [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Jer. 11:16[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Hos. 14:6[/SIZE]
    The Christians Are An Olive Tree:
    -
    [SIZE=9pt]Rom. 11:24[/SIZE]

    Yes, in Jer., Israel is called an olive tree but the Hos. passage is just using it as a comparison. The reality is, that neither Israel nor the Church are the olive tree of Rom. 11. The “tree” is “the Way” of God. Jews, the “natural” branches are called that because it is to them, “the Way” was given and for a time it was only for them. They accessed the Way through faith and obedience to the law and ordinances but gentiles access the way through faith, obedience and grace. It is through their unbelief that some of the natural branches were broken off and we can be broken off as well for the same reason. The tree in and of itself is never broken, just branches.

    Let me sum up by saying this. Neither Israel nor Gentiles are of the family of God (as Paul repeatedly says). Only those from either group that have exercised their faith in God and put their trust in Him and in Christ’s completed work are eligible and then we lose those labels of Jew/Israelite and Gentile and become part of His Body, where none of those labels have any more significance.

    Hi S4C, Your words: "It is so very important, as the above passage states, to not speak the words that we have been conditioned to speak by the spirit of the world (by what man's wisdom has taught us); but to speak the words which the Holy Spirit has taught us (to speak in a spiritual manner). These words are contained in the Holy Scripture, which are for our "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). And "rapture" is not contained in the Holy Scripture."

    I agree that we should only speak as to what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us. You believe I am parroting man's doctrine, but I assure you that with over twenty-five years of independent, end-times study, He has shown me the truth of what I speak. You seem to be the one having difficulty disassociating false dogma around the common usage of a single word. There are other examples.

    Let's see, the word "Trinity" isn't in the bible but we use it in describing the triune nature of the Godhead, or do you deny that as well?

    There's also the word "bible". That is never used in the scriptures but that doesn't stop the majority of christians from using it to describe the collection of God's word combined into a single volume.

    There is one area in which you are guilty of what you accuse me of and that is when referencing a false teaching called the "tribulation" period. By using the terms pre-trib and post-trib you appear to be validating something that doesn't exist in scripture and is a "man-made" doctrine. While I believe that Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, calling it a tribulation period is a misnomer because nowhere in scripture does it teach of a seven year long period of tribulation!
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Correct, Trekson; nowhere does scripture teach of a 7 year Tribulation period.
    But Rev. 12:6 does tell us there will be a 1260 day [3.5 year] time of hardship and war; Rev 12:17. Preceded by another 1260 day, 42 month period of the two witnesses. Rev. 11:2-3
    These times, therefore, are the 70th year of Daniel. Commenced by the Anti-Christ and New Israel making a 7 year treaty of peace and the first 3.5 years are relatively calm, but then the AC comes to Jerusalem and conquers them, placing his image in the Temple. Daniel 9:27 This triggers the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl punishments.

    N2thelight's post does have some verses that don't fit properly, but that doesn't negate the premise; There is only one Israel and that is: the true believers in Jesus. Ethnicity no longer counts to God, however the fact is that a high proportion of righteous Christians are descendants of Jacob, from the ten Northern tribes, still at present 'scattered among the nations'.
    Of course you must disagree with this, as it totally refutes your pre-trib 'rapture' belief, where you must have two entities; one the Church, taken away and the other, Israel left behind to face wrath. Pray that your 'eyes will be opened and your ears unstopped'.
     
  12. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Keras, Your words: "Of course you must disagree with this, as it totally refutes your pre-trib 'rapture' belief, where you must have two entities; one the Church, taken away and the other, Israel left behind to face wrath. Pray that your 'eyes will be opened and your ears unstopped'."

    If you have ever really read any of my postings then you would know your assumption about what I believe is totally false in both areas. If you want to challenge me fine but do your due diligence first and know my position before you debate me on it. I've got over 650 posts on here and you can check anyone you want. You will not find your assumptions anywhere in my posts.
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Yes Trekson, I see you do believe in one true group of believers:
    Quote from #1 - Let me sum up by saying this. Neither Israel nor Gentiles are of the family of God (as Paul repeatedly says). Only those from either group that have exercised their faith in God and put their trust in Him and in Christ’s completed work are eligible and then we lose those labels of Jew/Israelite and Gentile and become part of His Body, where none of those labels have any more significance.

    But you do believe in the 'harpazo' , as your OP states. And we do still require names for the various groups, so perhaps you could now explain who you think will be 'harpazoed' and who will remain to face tribulation? Remember that the Jewish Israelis are only a small part of the descendants of Jacob, the Israelites, now as many 'as the sands of the sea'.
     
  14. Chuckt

    Chuckt New Member

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    It is false for a couple of reasons:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Enoch-Elijah.html
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    So Chuckt, you rest your case on the premise that Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven, that is: Gods dwelling place? Very poor exegesis.
    Re Enoch, Genesis 5:24 does NOT say he was taken to heaven, just that he 'was taken away'.
    Re Elijah, 2 Kings 2:11 actually says [in the Hebrew] 'he ascended in the tempest to the heavens'.
    Neither man actually went to live in heaven, for to have done so, would make Jesus a liar. It is as simple as that!

    I realise that for 'rapture' believers, something taught as gospel truth, it hard to change even when the Bible facts disprove that pretentious notion. Just consider: if you think you are good enough to be removed from the earth before any kind of testing and go to live with God himself, aren't you pre-judging yourself? Isn't that a sin? Shouldn't we be doing the work of spreading the Gospel? Does God need us to help Him in heaven?
    Raptureoligists need to read their Bibles better and see what God really does promise to His righteous people. Amazing promises of blessings as they live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 36:24-38 and many other prophesies of how His people will be, at last, 'a light to the nations'. Isaiah 42:6
     
  16. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    No one has denied you your claimed standing in the Lord. This is not about you personally, so there’s no need for you to soapbox here or couch terms for fear of “ruffling feathers.”

    To be crystal, you are intentionally choosing to mislead others. You are causing others to stumble by purposely inserting non-biblical words into your arguments. “Common usage” is not justification. Pride is at the root of it and ignorance follows it like tails on a kite.

    In a witness, I would never use the word “trinity” with anyone. Rather, the proper biblical word is Godhead.

    If you were observant of my posts, you would know that I always distinguish between “bible” (meaning simply “book,” like copyrighted modern ‘versions’ of the Holy Bible) and “Bible,” (meaning the Holy Bible).

    Not at all. The word “tribulation,” unlike your harpazo (or “rapture”) appears 22 times in scripture. And I specifically qualified my one-time usage expressly for cowardly attacks such as this.

    Oh, there is a period of tribulation (more than one), as per scripture. Yet, on a positive note, we do agree that there is no “seven year long period of tribulation.”
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  17. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Keras, I will answer your post with a re-posting of a study I did on the great trib. I know we disagree in many areas, but you asked.
     
  18. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    It's not a matter of belief, but what is in the Bible.

    The concept of the Rapture is contained within the Bible. While it can be traced to a single verb, the action of the Rapture is delineated by many different words. So while the word is not found in itself in the Bible, like the concept of the Trinity, it can easily be discerned. Here are references for all the various terms the Bible uses in the New Testament for this action, and the general sense of the Greek verbs used for each reference.

    • MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
    • MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
    • MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
    • MK 16:19 to carry up
    • LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
    • LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
    • LK 24:51 to take up, raise
    • JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
    • AC 1:9-11 to lift up
    • 1CO 15:51-54 to change
    • 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
    • 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
    • 1TH 4:16
    • 1Th 4:17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
    • 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
    • 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
    • HEB 11:5 to transfer, change
    • REV 12:5 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away

    The words the authors use to describe the Rapture indicate various aspects of the action which will occur.
    Some word definition is in order. In order to distinguish between those who are resurrected and those who are taken up, some distinction is needed to convey which group is being referenced. As all Saints are “living” as in being alive in the eternal sense, the use of “Living” will designate this group. This comes from Mt 22:32.

    “‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    The Rapture is only for living Christians, that is, those who are physically and bodily alive on the earth when Christ comes. This stands in contrast to a play on words as the first resurrection is also termed to be only for the Living, as in being spiritually alive. Do not confuse the Rapture as being the same as the First Resurrection; it is part of it, but not all of it.

    At the time of the Day of the Lord’s gathering, the “dead in Christ” are first resurrected and then those who are still (physically) alive (1Co 15:51) and are left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:22/31) are caught up, or gathered, or taken. Believing Christians will be the only ones qualified to be ‘taken up’ to ‘receive their inheritance’ (both usages come from the same word in the Greek). At this point, it matters little if these “Christians” are mainstream Christians of today, newly converted Christians from the Gospel message of the three Angels, or Messianic Jews; the key factor and only qualification for being lifted up is their belief in Jesus.
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus said: the concept of the rapture is contained within the Bible.
    I say; The concept of the restoration and gathering of the Lord's people is prophesied throughout the Bible. And here are some of them:

    [SIZE=11pt]The Second Exodus of the Israelites[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]2 Chronicles 6:36-39 If your people sin against You and in Your anger, they are sent out of the holy Land, but then; if they turn back in penitence - confessing their sins in true sincerity, then: I ask, hear their prayer and uphold their rights.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 51:5-6 In an instant I will bring victory, My Deliverance will appear to My people. Look, although the sky is dispersed like smoke and people die like flies, My saving power to you will be everlasting. [Protection on the Lord’s Day of wrath – a CME sunstrike][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Psalm 66:12 We have been downtrodden and passed through fire, but now You bring us into a place of plenty.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Psalm 68:19-27 Blessed is the Lord, He is our salvation, He smites our enemies. The Lord says: I shall bring My people back from their dispersion – now look: The procession of the twelve tribes comes into view, singing and dancing as they return to the Land.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 30:29 For you there will be songs and gladness as you march to the Lord’s holy Land.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 11:11-16 On that Day, the Lord will exert His power a second time to recover the remnant of His people, He makes a signal to the nations and will gather all those dispersed of Israel, from every corner of the earth. The enmity between Judah and Israel will cease.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 41:8-10 Have no fear, My people - the descendants of My friend, Abraham. I have not rejected you, now I summon you from the four corners of the earth; I am with you and will give you strength.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 49:8-23 At the appointed time of My favour, I will answer you, on the Day of deliverance I come to your aid. I have prepared you and destined you to be a light to the nations. You will go free from every place where you were exiled; the Lord will guide and comfort you, as you assemble back into your heritage.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 54:7 & 2-3 For a passing moment I cast you off, now with tender affection I shall bring you home again. Enlarge your space, for you will dispossess nations and live in cities made empty and desolate. [The Mid East, depopulated by the Lord’s Day of wrath][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 55:14 You will be restored triumphantly, you will have nothing to fear.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 3:14-18 Come back, you apostate people! I shall take a few of you and bring you to Zion. I will give you leaders with understanding, never again be led astray.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 30:4-11 The Day of terror comes, everyone grips their sides in fright. It is a Day of anguish for Jacob, but he will come through it safely. On that Day, I shall break the yoke of servitude off My people, I will bring you back safe from afar, Jacob will be at rest once more, I will discipline you only as you deserve. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 60:4-12 Look: The people are coming, some from far away, in vessels that sail along like the clouds, that fly like doves. [aircraft] They bring their treasures with them, and flocks of livestock will be acceptable offerings on the altar of My Temple. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 61:2b-11 ....a Day of vengeance of our God, then comfort to all who mourn, they will be called ‘trees of righteousness’, planted by the Lord. They will rebuild the ruined cities; aliens will help you bring the Land back to prosperity. Great will be your wealth and renown.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 66:18-20 I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue; they will come to see My glory. From the entire world, in every type of conveyance, they come as an offering to the Lord.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 16:14-16 The time is coming when I shall bring the Israelites back to the soil that I gave to their forefathers, I will fish and hunt in every place to find them all. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 30:18-22 I shall restore the fortunes of Jacobs clans, the houses will be rebuilt and the Land made prosperous. A ruler will appear, one of themselves – he will approach Me. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 23:3 I, Myself will gather the remnant of My sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them; I shall bring them back to their rightful homes and they will be fruitful and increase. Continued -[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 31:1-40 At that time, I shall be the God of all the families of Israel and they will be My people. Those who survive My sword of punishment, will find My favour. Virgin Israel – I will build you up again, again you will plant vineyards on the hills of Samaria. Give shouts of joy and go forth with a merry throng of dancers![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] There is hope for the posterity of Israel, their children will return to within their own borders. The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt to the Lord’s honour.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 32:1-15 Jeremiah is told to go and buy a field and to seal the title deed into a jar, to be kept for a distant future time, when once again all Israel will live in the Land. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 32:37-41 I shall gather My people from every place where have banished them. It will be a joy to Me to do them good when I plant them in this Land.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 33:6-9 Now I shall bring healing and care to Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I will cleanse them of all the sins they have committed in their rebellion against Me. Their Land will be famous for its prosperity.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 46:27-28 Israel, My servants: do not be afraid, from afar I will bring you back safe, your children with you, from all the countries where they are now in exile. Don’t worry, for I am with you, I shall punish the nations, but you I will discipline only as you deserve.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 50:4-6 At that time, Israel and Judah will come together and in tears go in search of their God, they will go to Zion and bind themselves to the Lord. My people are like lost sheep, forgetful of their rightful fold. [Land] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 29:13-14 When you seek Me, I shall let you find Me. I shall restore your fortunes and will gather you from your banishment and resettle you in the place from which I sent you into exile. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 11:15-20 The whole people of Israel [the 10 tribes] to whom Judah [the Jews] have said: The Land is now ours to possess. The Lord says: When I sent Israel far away around the world, for a while I was their protector and blessed them wherever they lived.[/SIZE] [The blessings of Jacob; Genesis 49] I shall gather My people from their dispersion and give the Land of Israel to them. I will remove their hearts of stone and put a new spirit in them. They will be My people and I will be their God.
    [SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 20:34 By My outpoured wrath, [the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath] I shall bring you out from the nations and gather you from wherever you are dispersed.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 28:24-26 No longer will the Israelites suffer threats from their neighbours. When they are settled on their own soil, they will display My holiness for all the world to see. [Jesus is not yet present in His glory, as it is His people who ‘show His holiness’, Ezekiel 39:27][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 36:8-12 But you; Land of Israel, grow your trees and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. I shall settle in you many people, the towns again inhabited and the fields tilled, more people and more prosperous than in days of old.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 37:1-28 The great spiritual regeneration and rejoining of all the Israelites. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Hosea 1:11 The people of Israel and Judah will be reunited and will choose for themselves one leader. Great will be the Day of Jezreel. [Jezreel= all righteous Israel. ][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Hosea 2:14-23 Now, I shall woo and encourage the Israelites. They will be My new sowing in the holy Land, they will live there without fear, in prosperity and peace. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Hosea 11:8-11 I will not let loose My fury on Israel, a change of heart moves Me, they will now follow Me when I call, they will come like birds back to their own Land.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Hosea 14:4-8 I shall heal My peoples apostasy, I will love them freely, they will dwell in My shadow and will flourish like a vine. [in His shadow, not His presence, as yet][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Joel 2:18-19 The Lord showed His love for the Land and had compassion on His people. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Micah 2:12-13 I shall assemble you, the whole House of Jacob, herd you like sheep in a fold. They will all break out of their exile, the Lord showing the way. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.[/SIZE]
     
  20. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    And no wonder you can't "see" the Rapture if you look where it is not found!

    1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
     
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