Why is God So Mean?

[Groundzero]

Fire-7,

I cannot blame a man for not having read the whole Bible. I wouldn't even object to him (or her) making comments about the Bible as they are reading it. However, it is only reasonable to hold the comments and conclusions such a person makes as incomplete until they do such.

You stated that there are many people who have read the Bible who aren't Christian. Sure, but there are many Christians who have read the Bible and know quite a bit more about Christ as a result. Do they know more than a Christian who hasn't read the whole Bible? Well, actually yes they do! That is not to say someone who has read it all is more intelligent, understands it better or even more spiritual than someone who hasn't read it all. It does mean they have heard (or read) the conclusion of the whole matter. It would be and it is wrong if you decide that reading the entire Bible is senseless simply because you know others who have read it and don't agree with it, don't believe it, don't practice it or have gone on to wild points of view. Are you afraid that's going to happen to you?

Let me illustrate my point. Let's just take one book of the Bible: Matthew. For this point I'm making, forget all the other books (bear with me in my folly). If you read the first and last three chapters, what do you know? Christ was born, brutally murdered and rose from the dead. Praise God! But you don't know what he said or did inbetween. If you read the entire book of Matthew exept the first and last three chapters, You know of the man but not how he came or what happened to him. In both cases your knowledge of him is incomplete. Is it not better to read the whole book and know the beginning, middle and end?

Fire-7, at least give the Bible a chance! I encourage you to keep reading as I believe it will aid you in spiritual growth, and will be an added benefit in your natural life as well. The notion that others have read it and are no better off shouldn't scare you into not reading and studying it. As for it being a source of controversy, well.... The Bible said it would be!



No Robbie.... No one is replacing Jesus with a book. That's rediculous. It is the book that tells us what Jesus did, what he said, and who he is. Without that book, we have no more idea who Christ is than the prophets who said he was coming -- and even less than they did. That may seem harsh but it's the truth. The whole notion about Christ being in our hearts is true... I agree. However, what would we really know about that presense in our hearts? It would be like having a car but not the keys to it.

So true. The Bible is what leads us to Jesus. We cannot find the true Jesus without the Bible nor can we find the true Jesus if the Bible is not infallible.

Ok, Ive got a few people asking me questions as to what I said, Im going to take it one at a time.




Ah, see, I do agree that the Bible is extremely valuable. When we take it in its entirety (with understanding) it really does show the truth.

BUT, who is doing the interpreting? It cannot be us. It has to be the Spirit. Jesus says that the sons of God are led of the Spirit. The Bible is a great and usefull tool. But we FOLLOW the living word, Jesus Christ. The Spirit then opens our understanding to the scriptures. We must seek the Lord. He is the Master, the King, and the one who opens our understanding and gives us wisdom.



Again, what about John 1? It says 'The Word was God', and as the rest of the chapter shows, it's talking about Jesus.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to throw the Bible out. To the contrary, it's a very valuable tool! But who is leading us?

Yes, the scriptures are given by the inspiration of God. And yet God decided to give Peter, Paul, John, etc, more words from him. He even spoke directly through him. Jesus says the sons of God are led of the Spirit.

I don't deny that the Word in John 1 became flesh! I don't deny that it is God! Robbie seems to think that I am some dimwit who imagines the Scripture floating around in space! All that Word means, is expression! It doesn't mean a written book!

I am tired of this conversation. Quite simply, the Scriptures MUST be without contradiction, or everything that Christianity is about is in vain, because it ALL is based on Scripture. Scripture is the means by which we discover Jesus, we cannot do away with Scripture, it is our foundation! My issue is not over who is leading, I know who is leading, Jesus. The issue was over Scripture, is it essential? I said yes. Robbie objected.

 

[THE Gypsy]

So true. The Bible is what leads us to Jesus. We cannot find the true Jesus without the Bible nor can we find the true Jesus if the Bible is not infallible.

I disagree. I came to the saving knowledge of Christ and the Bible was not involved.

 

[Groundzero]

I disagree. I came to the saving knowledge of Christ and the Bible was not involved.

So someone told you? Where did they find out about Jesus? Ultimately, the Bible is the only way to meet Jesus.

 

[Prentis]

My experience is the same as The Gypsy's. No Bible involved. Just the word of the Lord (spoken by someone).

The Spirit gives life, not the letter.

Here's the problem, Groundzero, you say the FOUNDATION is scripture. No, it is Christ, scripture itself tells us that. You also say that Christianity is based on scripture. It is not. Christianity is about a new creation, Christ in us. It is about his life and power.

The Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

So someone told you? Where did they find out about Jesus? Ultimately, the Bible is the only way to meet Jesus.

Actually, it didn't start by the Bible, the New Testament was letters and books to transmit the message of the Lord. But they were just one of many ways. Doesn't it say that Paul went and PREACHED? Peter PREACHED and 3000 were converted that day. The life and the power of Christ was present in them and among them, and the words they spoke came from God, and they were Spirit and Life.

So what you said is wrong. It all started with Jesus giving life to the disciples, and the disciples then sharing and seeking the life.

 

[Groundzero]

My experience is the same as The Gypsy's. No Bible involved. Just the word of the Lord (spoken by someone).

The Spirit gives life, not the letter.

Here's the problem, Groundzero, you say the FOUNDATION is scripture. No, it is Christ, scripture itself tells us that. You also say that Christianity is based on scripture. It is not. Christianity is about a new creation, Christ in us. It is about his life and power.

The Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.



Actually, it didn't start by the Bible, the New Testament was letters and books to transmit the message of the Lord. But they were just one of many ways. Doesn't it say that Paul went and PREACHED? Peter PREACHED and 3000 were converted that day. The life and the power of Christ was present in them and among them, and the words they spoke came from God, and they were Spirit and Life.

So what you said is wrong. It all started with Jesus giving life to the disciples, and the disciples then sharing and seeking the life.

Actually, here is the scenario. God > prophets > OT > Jesus (God manifest in flesh) > apostles > NT > OT and NT compiled into the Bible > Us

The Scripture is our foundation because we don't have the apostles here with us anymore. All we have is their God-inspired writings.

 

[Prentis]

Actually, here is the scenario. God > prophets > OT > Jesus (God manifest in flesh) > apostles > NT > OT and NT compiled into the Bible > Us

The Scripture is our foundation because we don't have the apostles here with us anymore. All we have is their God-inspired writings.

Who worked through the Apostles? Christ. (Paul, the Apostle, says "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me")

Who is at work today? Christ.

God has his men. He trains them, shapes them, they are is workmanship, and when they are ready he sends them.

The body still has teachers, prophets, pastors, evangelists, apostles. God still raises up men and uses them. That is not the way the mainstream church operates. But it is the way God operates.

God is the living God, and he works in his people today.

 

[Groundzero]

Who worked through the Apostles? Christ. (Paul, the Apostle, says "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me")

Who is at work today? Christ.

God has his men. He trains them, shapes them, they are is workmanship, and when they are ready he sends them.

The body still has teachers, prophets, pastors, evangelists, apostles. God still raises up men and uses them. That is not the way the mainstream church operates. But it is the way God operates.

God is the living God, and he works in his people today.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Oh, and in case I get some ridiculous answer that the word 'word' here is referring to Jesus as in John 1, no, it doesn't. It's a different Greek word.

 

[THE Gypsy]

So someone told you? Where did they find out about Jesus? Ultimately, the Bible is the only way to meet Jesus.

I disagree. Are you saying if someone, say in a jungle in an area that has not been reached by others is doomed to Hell because they have never seen, or heard of a Bible? Sorry...I don't buy it. God is MUCH bigger than that.

 

[Robbie]

Groundzero... you're the one that insinuated that everyone with a sound mind was going to come to believe that I was an absolute idiot... I never once said you were a dimwit... you actually seem quite intelligent in a carnal sense... and I never said you believed the bible was spinning around in outerspace... I told a story of my friend who is a pastor's daughter who believe that... and it was as an example of the confusion that laying a book as the foundation instead of Christ causes... so you are lying, manipulating and twisting things. I really hope you examine yourself and recognize this pattern of behavior. It is not that of Christ... check your fruit...

And no God doesn't lose His power to save humanity through Christ without a bible... the power of salvation is a reestablished relationship with the Father through Christ in us... so you are mistaken... Salvation comes through the Living Word Jesus... not through paper and ink...

 

[Rach1370]

I'm not saying anything you're saying about the bible Rach so I don't really know where you get that from and nobody is pushing the book away... I'm just not making the book God and I'm rejecting that without the book God can't speak to us... which you seem to agree with...

Do I think the written testimonies are good for correction? Yes...

Do I think the written testimonies are good to point people to Jesus? Yes...

Do I think the first testimonies both that are written and were spoken were the beginning of the word going out which is why we believe in the Word? Yes...

Do I read those testimonies pretty much every day? Yes...

Do I think that those testimonies were the Word in the beginning that were with God and were God? No... I believe Jesus Is

Do I believe that the One sitting on the horse in the Revelation of Jesus Christ Who's name is the Word of God is a book? No... I believe He is Jesus...

Do I think the only way to the Father is through a book? No... I believe it's through Jesus...

This is where the division is... the division is whether Christ changes anything on the cross... do we still know about God through the written word... or do we now know God through His Living Word in us Who is Jesus... Christ in us...

Hey Robbie. I know you don't push the Bible away...I know this because you say you read it!

I suppose I was just wishing that everyone would somehow find that happy middle. It's not a compromise to do so, it's a perfect thing God has given us. Yes we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us guiding us...and we shouldn't deny this. But we shouldn't forget that the same Spirit within us was the very one to inspire the Bible to be written! That makes them complementary!

Ducky seems to be saying that any who rely only on the Holy Spirit guiding them are wrong, and you seem to be saying that those who rely only on scripture are just as wrong. Don't you suppose that the only thing wrong with both those ideas are the "onlys" in there? God the Father has given us both the Holy Spirit and the Bible as gifts....I just think we should be grateful for both, and use both to His glory.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What? I thought you said the Bible.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Oh, and in case I get some ridiculous answer that the word 'word' here is referring to Jesus as in John 1, no, it doesn't. It's a different Greek word.

"Faith" is built by hearing, not "Salvation".

 

[Groundzero]

I disagree. Are you saying if someone, say in a jungle in an area that has not been reached by others is doomed to Hell because they have never seen, or heard of a Bible? Sorry...I don't buy it. God is MUCH bigger than that.

I didn't say that. If someone has never heard of the Gospel . . . well then it's between them and God. I have no right to condemn them. I am saying, that if we have the Bible, we MUST use it! Otherwise we might as well forget about being Christian!

 

[Prentis]

Word of God means a word that comes from God, simple as that. If a man comes and speaks what the Spirit tells him to, it's a word of God! It comes from God!

The Bible is the word of God, because it is what God has spoken. But God is speaking now. The Lord speaks through people, he does his work through men.

[sup]2 Peter 1:2[/sup] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, [sup]3[/sup] as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, [sup]4[/sup] by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This passage says that it is his DIVINE POWER that has given us godliness. And it says the purpose of this is that we may be partakers of the divine nature!

Glory to God! He wishes us to be one with Him, to partake of his life and nature!

 

[THE Gypsy]

I didn't say that. If someone has never heard of the Gospel . . . well then it's between them and God. I have no right to condemn them. I am saying, that if we have the Bible, we MUST use it! Otherwise we might as well forget about being Christian!

OK…I agree with that. The Bible, most assuredly, is a very effective tool. I do not believe we can grow without it.

 

[Robbie]

Nah Rach.. Ducky is saying that it's only possible to know God through paper and ink... I'm saying I know the Father because the living Christ lives in me and I hear Him and there's no way to Him other than through Jesus who is God's Word... she's rejecting that we can hear Him... she's calling His Holy Spirit just some, "unknown spirit" and says it's only possible to hear Jesus through reading a book... that's a division that isn't negotiable... because to agree with Ducky would be denying what Christ did for humanity on the cross... when Christ died on the cross the bible didn't fly out from behind the veil... the veil was torn in two... and we now have direct access to the Father through Christ... God's Word living in us... I understand the battle for this truth is going out in an army of 10,000 against an army of 20,000 but I will not seek conditions of peace... as the only way for peace with those who deny the truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross would be to deny Him the glory He deserves and to reject the salvation of a reestablished relationship through Him to the Father that He made possible.

I hope you understand...

 

[Prentis]

Hey Robbie. I know you don't push the Bible away...I know this because you say you read it!

I suppose I was just wishing that everyone would somehow find that happy middle. It's not a compromise to do so, it's a perfect thing God has given us. Yes we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us guiding us...and we shouldn't deny this. But we shouldn't forget that the same Spirit within us was the very one to inspire the Bible to be written! That makes them complementary!

Ducky seems to be saying that any who rely only on the Holy Spirit guiding them are wrong, and you seem to be saying that those who rely only on scripture are just as wrong. Don't you suppose that the only thing wrong with both those ideas are the "onlys" in there? God the Father has given us both the Holy Spirit and the Bible as gifts....I just think we should be grateful for both, and use both to His glory.

Here's the problem with what you say Rach. We cannot rely on scriptures to guide us AT ALL. We must rely on the Spirit to guide us THROUGH scripture.

Scripture IS the the word of the Lord, but our interpretation of it ISNT.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)

The Spirit interprets the Bible, not us. And he must be our teacher and our guide, while the Bible can be one of his tools to teach us.

It is not a 50/50

 

[THE Gypsy]

Word of God means a word that comes from God, simple as that. If a man comes and speaks what the Spirit tells him to, it's a word of God! It comes from God!

However, that "word" that came from a "man" MUST be proofed against the Scriptures. How else could we recognise a false prophet or someone trying to lead us astray?

The Bible is the word of God, because it is what God has spoken. But God is speaking now. The Lord speaks through people, he does his work through men.

True, however...See above.

[sup]2 Peter 1:2[/sup] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, [sup]3[/sup] as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, [sup]4[/sup] by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This passage says that it is his DIVINE POWER that has given us godliness. And it says the purpose of this is that we may be partakers of the divine nature!

Glory to God! He wishes us to be one with Him, to partake of his life and nature!

"Power" comes through "knowledge".

Here's the problem with what you say Rach. We cannot rely on scriptures to guide us AT ALL. We must rely on the Spirit to guide us THROUGH scripture.

Scripture IS the the word of the Lord, but our interpretation of it ISNT.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)

The Spirit interprets the Bible, not us. And he must be our teacher and our guide, while the Bible can be one of his tools to teach us.

It is not a 50/50

Sometimes I wish I had just shut up and let the conversation evolve.

 

[Groundzero]

Groundzero... you're the one that insinuated that everyone with a sound mind was going to come to believe that I was an absolute idiot... I never once said you were a dimwit... you actually seem quite intelligent in a carnal sense... and I never said you believed the bible was spinning around in outerspace... I told a story of my friend who is a pastor's daughter who believe that... and it was as an example of the confusion that laying a book as the foundation instead of Christ causes... so you are lying, manipulating and twisting things. I really hope you examine yourself and recognize this pattern of behavior. It is not that of Christ... check your fruit...

And no God doesn't lose His power to save humanity through Christ without a bible... the power of salvation is a reestablished relationship with the Father through Christ in us... so you are mistaken... Salvation comes through the Living Word Jesus... not through paper and ink...

Perhaps you have misunderstood me. I never once said that Salvation comes through paper and ink.

For the last time, I state what I believe concerning all this:

• The Bible is inspired of God, infallible
• The Bible is the Christian's measuring rod. Using the Scripture, a person should be able to line himself up with what God thinks
• The Bible has carried the story of God's grace to us down through the centuries. Without it, we would be lost.
• The Bible is the authority that gives power to what a Christian believes. Without the Bible, there is no proof.
• The Bible is without contradiction.

Having said that, no, if someone doesn't have a Bible doesn't mean they are not saved. I never made any statements like that, and I never implied it. I don't doubt that God can save people without a Bible. Clearly he did. I never have argued that point, never will.
The reader can read through all the comments that have been made, and hopefully he will be able to see where each of us stand.
And no, I am not denying Jesus is the only way. If you read through my posts, you will find that I defend the supreme deity of Jesus. I do not for one moment, suggest that we can be saved without him because I believe that he is ALL that God is and that he is holding EVERYTHING together with his power.

What? I thought you said the Bible.




"Faith" is built by hearing, not "Salvation".

Where did I say the Bible?

However, that "word" that came from a "man" MUST be proofed against the Scriptures. How else could we recognise a false prophet or someone trying to lead us astray?





True, however...See above.



"Power" comes through "knowledge".




Sometimes I wish I had just shut up and let the conversation evolve.

Lol. I wish the same in a way! I feel like I am getting into a debate over something I am completely unaware of!

True about that. How do we know it is of God if we don't have the Scripture? Scripture is essential to the Believer because without it he loses his measuring stick!

Now I'm going to go back and see just where and what I originally started! lol

 

[THE Gypsy]

Where did I say the Bible?

Here... "ONLY" is a very strong word.

So someone told you? Where did they find out about Jesus? Ultimately, the Bible is the only way to meet Jesus.

 

[Robbie]

If Christ is in you He will show you who is leading you astray... and yes... He won't contradict Himself... so you can use the written testimonies to Him as tools of accountability... but first off you have start by laying Christ as the foundation... you don't hold Moses or Elijah or the Law or the Prophets over the revelation that's in Christ... as the Father rebuked the disciples... He's His beloved Son... hear Him...

So when He says it's the Spirit that will teach you and someone says, "No.. it's a man reading a book to you that teaches you" You know that person is disagreeing with written testimony to the Lord...

When He says there's no way to the Father but by Me and someone says, "There's no way to the Father except through reading a book" you know that person is disagreeing with the written testimony to the Lord...

When He says no one comes to me unless the Father Himself calls them and someone says, "No one comes to Him unless someone reads them the bible" you know that person is disagreeing with the written testimony to the Lord...