Why is God So Mean?

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Buzzfruit

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>>Doctrine indeed will decide salvation.

>>People who have heard of Christ and believe He is God and spend there lives practicing His love will be saved.

Actually, neither are correct. Doctrine does not save; only belief in Christ our Lord and Savior will save us from eternal damnation. And practicing his love is something we should do, but only by faith in God and His Son are we actually saved.

John 3:16 - For hGod so loved ithe world,9 jthat he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not kperish but have eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

In addition to believing in Jesus one must believe the message (the gospel of the kingdom) that Jesus preached.

Mark 1:14-15 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
[sup]15 [/sup]and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

But that message is not about Jesus; it is about the kingdom of God. But most Christians either have never heard that message or do not understand it. Because if they did they would not believe Heaven is where they are going to live when Jesus returns.

Jesus even said seek first the kingdom of God and His rightiousness.

Matthew 6:33 (Darby)
[sup]33 [/sup]But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.
 

lightning63

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The best way to get God to forgive you is to REPENT. It is a key word. It's all going to be okay, as long as you say your sorry. Nobody is perfect.

I like to believe that some suffering causes spiritual growth. In order to purify silver, it must be thrown in to the fire, which is painful.

Malachi 3:2-3
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.
 

Buzzfruit

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The best way to get God to forgive you is to REPENT. It is a key word. It's all going to be okay, as long as you say your sorry. Nobody is perfect.

I like to believe that some suffering causes spiritual growth. In order to purify silver, it must be thrown in to the fire, which is painful.

Malachi 3:2-3
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.


All people's sins are already been forgiven.....Jesus even asked for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him. Of course, people need to repent which will show that they have accepted His forgiveness. But at the same time no one can repent unless God has granted them repentance. So it means that everything is going according to God's plan. When it is time God will grant repentance even those who have died, who did not repent before they died. There is a second resorrection for them.
 

Duckybill

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All people's sins are already been forgiven.....Jesus even asked for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him. Of course, people need to repent which will show that they have accepted His forgiveness. But at the same time no one can repent unless God has granted them repentance. So it means that everything is going according to God's plan. When it is time God will grant repentance even those who have died, who did not repent before they died. There is a second resorrection for them.
Then why are you here preaching if everyone will be saved regardless???
 

aspen

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I thought Buzzfruit was just posting like the rest of us............
 

Groundzero

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Doctrine, doctrine, doctrine. So many theories about it. What about we actually use the Scriptures to see what they say about doctrine instead of just loads of theories about doctrine that have absolutely no base?

Ready? Brace yourselves! Jesus had his own doctrine!

Mat_7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

I would venture to say that we should be following Jesus' doctrine! There are many verse considering doctrine.

Act_2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Rom_6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom_16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Ti_1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti_1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti_4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti_4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti_4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Ti_5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti_6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti_6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2Ti_3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti_4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

And perhaps a very severe warning:
2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Let us speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent.
 

logabe

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All people's sins are already been forgiven.....Jesus even asked for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him. Of course, people need to repent which will show that they have accepted His forgiveness. But at the same time no one can repent unless God has granted them repentance. So it means that everything is going according to God's plan. When it is time God will grant repentance even those who have died, who did not repent before they died.
There is a second resorrection for them.


I'm with you Buzzfruit. If we all could get together and recognize the power of the
CROSS, what a great revelation, knowing the purpose of the 2nd resurrection,
which means, a second opportunity to make it right with God. Romans 11:26,

26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

Boy, they were some stinkers too... but God in His Infinite Mercy will give them a
second opportunity and according to scripture they will avail themselves to the
power of the CROSS.

Knowing that God is no respector of persons, He will also grant that same second
opportunity to the nations. Romans 8:21 says,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the
bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children
of God.


Logabe
 

Groundzero

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I'm with you Buzzfruit. If we all could get together and recognize the power of the
CROSS, what a great revelation, knowing the purpose of the 2nd resurrection,
which means, a second opportunity to make it right with God. Romans 11:26,

26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

Boy, they were some stinkers too... but God in His Infinite Mercy will give them a
second opportunity and according to scripture they will avail themselves to the
power of the CROSS.

Knowing that God is no respector of persons, He will also grant that same second
opportunity to the nations. Romans 8:21 says,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the
bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children
of God.


Logabe

Ummmm, could we have some real back-up for this 'second chance' at redemption?
 

aspen

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Every time God looks mean in the Bible it is a misconception on our part based on humanities' poor response to a sovereign God. Nationalism, stubbornness, expansiveness, war, famine, - are all natural consequences of our sin, which we have a track record of blaming God for. Thankfully, after years of us responding badly to God in every way imaginable, God gave us Jesus who was the perfect response to His sovereignty. Unfortunately, we murdered Him, but in that act, God's heart broke and He offered us forgiveness. He sent us His Spirit and gave us a plan for redemption and the promise of an eternal, intimate relationship with Him.
 

Buzzfruit

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Ummmm, could we have some real back-up for this 'second chance' at redemption?

It's not a second chance. If God never called them the first time when they were alive then it is not a second chance when He called them in the second resurrection......it's their first and only chance.




But here are two. There are more if you like I could provide them.

In Acts 24: 15 tells us that the just and the unjust will be resurrected. The just are the men and women of God and the unjust are those who were not.

Acts 24:15 (ASV)
[sup]15 [/sup]having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust.



Here below in Revelation two sets of people are mentioned.....the saints who were beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus.....these will live and reign with Jesus. Then it says in verse 5, that the rest of the dead will not live until the 1,000 years has been completed. These people will be all people from all walks of life, from all places, from the time of Adam right on down to those who will be killed by Jesus when He returns.
For there to be a first resurrection there must be at least one after that.



Revelation 20:4-5 (Darby)
[sup]4 [/sup]And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:
[sup]5 [/sup]the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection.




I hope that you are willing to believe what those scriptures above is telling you and not reject them just because that is not what you are told in Church. Both scriptures are referring to both Israelites and Gentiles that died without hope......they all will live again.
 

logabe

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Ummmm, could we have some real back-up for this 'second chance' at redemption?

Here's a good one for you... Isaiah 45:23 says,

23 I have sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my
mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto
me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Now that is a pretty strong statement, "God swears", think about that for a
minute. We know what they will confess and swear for Paul tells us in
Philippians 2:10-11.

Here's my question... In Romans 10:9 Paul says, if you confess with your
mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall
be saved, is that what God is doing in Isaiah?

God swears these people will confess that Jesus is Lord. Does God really
understand the consequences in 2011 of making a statement like that. Hardly
no one will believe him. Everyone will confess and that is the requirement in
the New Testament to be saved.

Should we believe God? :angry:

Logabe
 

Buzzfruit

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Denying Christ is different from knowing doctrine. People will be saved without reading the Bible or even entering church. People who have heard of Christ and believe He is God and spend there lives practicing His love will be saved. It doesn't take an armchair theologian to be saved. There will be no test at the gates of Heaven.

You show me in the Bible where people who believe the gospel and Jesus but refuse to assemble with other people that are filled with God's Spirit?

Have you never read in this scripture in the Bible?

Hebrews 10:25-26 (ASV)
[sup]25 [/sup]not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
[sup]26 [/sup]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,




Refusing to attend Church where all God's people gather together is sinning willfully as it says in verse 26. And there is no sacrifice for willfully sinning......this is one of the unpardonable sins. We are not called to be a Christian in isolation.....God is creating His family and His family desires to assemble with each other. Anyone who refuse to do that is not part of His family.




Yes, there is no test gate in Heaven but God never said we were going to Heaven. It is not us that is going to Heaven, it is God whom is coming to live with man on the Earth.

Revelation 21:3 (ESV)
[sup]3 [/sup]And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
 

aspen

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Buzzfruit - not sure where to start.

I am not trying to defend the practice of people who refuse to assemble...it is part of our sanctification. However, the purpose of assembling is to love one another - many churches come together on Sundays and forget to love each other.

I really have no comment regarding where Heaven is - I plan on finding out when I go home to see God.
 

Groundzero

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Here's a good one for you... Isaiah 45:23 says,

23 I have sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my
mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto
me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Now that is a pretty strong statement, "God swears", think about that for a
minute. We know what they will confess and swear for Paul tells us in
Philippians 2:10-11.

Here's my question... In Romans 10:9 Paul says, if you confess with your
mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall
be saved, is that what God is doing in Isaiah?

God swears these people will confess that Jesus is Lord. Does God really
understand the consequences in 2011 of making a statement like that. Hardly
no one will believe him. Everyone will confess and that is the requirement in
the New Testament to be saved.

Should we believe God? :angry:

Logabe

Oh definitely we should believe God. I beg to differ that there will be those who bow the knee here on earth, while many will be forced to. I think that there is a big difference.

As for this thing about 'believe and be saved because of your belief' . . . did you know that the devil believes in one God? Belief is not enough to save you. Belief requires obedience.

Jas_2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 

logabe

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Oh definitely we should believe God. I beg to differ that there will be those who bow the knee here on earth, w
while many will be forced to
I think that there is a big difference.

As for this thing about 'believe and be saved because of your belief' . . . did you know that the devil believes in one God? Belief is not enough to save you. Belief requires obedience.

Jas_2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Do you mean like Paul did on the road to Damascus? God blinded him and scared him
to death and caused him to lose his religion.

As for as obedience, that is what happens @ Pentecost but I am talking about Passover.
In order to be justified @ Passover you must confess with your mouth that Jesus is your
Lord and that legally makes you a citizen in the Kingdom of God. That is the beginning of
your journey to the Promise Land and that is what God is saying in Isaiah 45:23.

Obedience begins when we are put in the wilderness of this world we live in. It is an everyday
walk with Jesus Christ through trials and tribulation for the purpose of overcoming the things
that keeps us in the flesh. It's called santification and it is used to purifiy us in mind and spirit.

At the Great White Throne Judgment every knee will bow and every tongue will confess
that Jesus is the Lord of Lords. That will be their Passover and then they will learn obedience
in the Lake of Fire which is God's Judgment of the Law. It is where they will be taught the
Law of God and they will learn righteousness. It is where Jesus will sit as a refiners fire and
purify the Sons of Levi.

Logabe
 

Buzzfruit

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Buzzfruit - not sure where to start.

I am not trying to defend the practice of people who refuse to assemble...it is part of our sanctification. However, the purpose of assembling is to love one another - many churches come together on Sundays and forget to love each other.


That's not the only reason. In the early days the church would come together to talk about what each have done in terms of the gospel. They would also sing songs of praise and of course fellowship with each other. God is about relationship and anyone that is truly converted will want to fellowship with God's people and sing praises to God together. A person that that keeps to themselves would be considered wicked in the eyes of God. That person is wicked because of his forsaking him or herself from the body of Christ others that might have benefited from that person would not.


I really have no comment regarding where Heaven is - I plan on finding out when I go home to see God.

I did not make a comment about where Heaven is. I said we are not going to Heaven but it is God whom will come and dwell with man.......you will never read in the Bible where it says were are going to Heaven. Jesus said it is the Earth we will inherit. Scriptures elswhere tells us that the saints will inherit the kingdom of God. So God has already told us where we will live. But if we don't believe what Jesus said then we are worshiping Him in vain......we are calling Him a liar.
 

aspen

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I did not make a comment about where Heaven is. I said we are not going to Heaven but it is God whom will come and dwell with man.......you will never read in the Bible where it says were are going to Heaven. Jesus said it is the Earth we will inherit. Scriptures elswhere tells us that the saints will inherit the kingdom of God. So God has already told us where we will live. But if we don't believe what Jesus said then we are worshiping Him in vain......we are calling Him a liar.

And there it is.....

Isn't that always the story with people who bully others into making irrelevant decisions about doctrine?......if you do not agree with me about some pet nuance in scripture you are obviously calling Jesus a liar.

I think Jesus could careless if I decide not to care about this issue.....in fact, I think He may even like it.

The truth of the matter is, my opinion on whether we end up on a new Earth or in Heaven makes zero difference. I am not calling Jesus a liar or worshiping Him in vain if I give an honest answer "I do not know". Choosing sides after splitting hairs involving doctrine can really damage the faith of a new Christian. I am still shocked that I was accused of calling Jesus a liar when I was a kid and a new Christian, simply because my youth director didn't know the answer to my question.

Jesus never tells us that we have to have all the answers - He tells us to love.
 

Buzzfruit

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And there it is.....

Isn't that always the story with people who bully others into making irrelevant decisions about doctrine?......if you do not agree with me about some pet nuance in scripture you are obviously calling Jesus a liar.

I think Jesus could careless if I decide not to care about this issue.....in fact, I think He may even like it.

The truth of the matter is, my opinion on whether we end up on a new Earth or in Heaven makes zero difference. I am not calling Jesus a liar or worshiping Him in vain if I give an honest answer "I do not know". Choosing sides after splitting hairs involving doctrine can really damage the faith of a new Christian. I am still shocked that I was accused of calling Jesus a liar when I was a kid and a new Christian, simply because my youth director didn't know the answer to my question.

Jesus never tells us that we have to have all the answers - He tells us to love.





If it's recorded in the Bible it is important or else God would not have it recorded. We should not be quick to dismiss something that Jesus said, because The Father said, Jesus is His Son and that we should listen to Him. We should grow in knowledge and in spirit the Bible says....if you are not growing then you are dead.....dead things can't grow.
But I am not bullying......that was not my intention. But Jesus did say many would be deceived.....He did not say the few would be. It's a lot easier to be deceived if one is willing to believe whatever a pastor is preaching in Church if this listener is not going to go by what is written in the Bible.


The Bible also says we should prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. So if we have belief or a teaching that is not supported in the Bible, then if we are being lead by the Spirit we would change our belief to match what is revealed in the Bible....don't you agree with this? So what I am doing is trying to get people to think about what they believe.

We all claim that what we believe is from the Bible but at the same time we don't all agree on the same things. So obviously not everything we believe is actually taught in the Bible. Being in error is not a sin if one errors in ignorance; what is, is when a person refuse to change when he or she is shown from the scriptures that they are in error.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Actually, the Bible doesn't say, "If you believe Jesus is God you will be saved". The doctorine states that we must believe that Jesus was crucified and raised again on the third day.

There can be, and are people, (for whatever reason) beleive that Jesus was the Son of God, died for our sins, and rose again. They have repented of what they know is sin, or have been told. But, these same may have no way to read the Bible to make a distinction of Jesus being God.

This isn't to say that It's okay to deny Jesus diety. We have to know that the Lord does understand each heart, and each thought.

If you died the very second after you were saved, do you beleive you would go to hell because you didn't know if Jesus was God or not? You just met him, how much do you think you could understand.

I think we need to quit putting our own ideas of salvation on others, or even our own yokes on others.