Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

[Randy Kluth]

God's fidelity to His Own Word is not at stake. It is satisfied and fulfilled in and by Christ, His Son. 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16; et al.

Please provide any Scriptures which disprove those.

You're asking me to disprove that Christ is the basis of the fulfillment of all God's Promises? What do you think I've been saying all along? Can't you distinguish between Christ being the fulfillment and Christ fulfilling certain promises God made to Abraham?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. It is constantly devolving through ever-increasing genetic dispersion and diffusion over time, as demonstrated empirically and mathematically.

No. It is constantly devolving through ever-increasing genetic dispersion and diffusion over time, as demonstrated empirically and mathematically.

It is there in every member of the human race, as demonstrated empirically and mathematically.

Their culture does not save them.

It is a legitimate reality present in every member of the human race, as demonstrated empirically and mathematically.

You must be living in another universe. The word "race" is understood, used, and identified every single day! You are wandering off point when you say that race doesn't save. I said quite the opposite, that nobody can save themselves--only Christ can save them.

But God has promised *who* would be saved, and it would require that certain nations become Christian nations. And so, people from each of these nations must be saved because they result from obedience to Christ.

That has always been the basis for human reward--obedience to Christ. When Christian nations show obedience to Christ, they will have children from the corresponding nations and races that are involved. God promised as such.

It is not that people are saving themselves by their obedience, but rather, that when they turn to Christ they are able to receive from his grace for Salvation. Unless you have Christian nations, there will be no preachers sharing the Gospel of Salvation. And there will be no Christian parents raising up their children in Christ.

 

[covenantee]

You're asking me to disprove that Christ is the basis of the fulfillment of all God's Promises? What do you think I've been saying all along? Can't you distinguish between Christ being the fulfillment and Christ fulfilling certain promises God made to Abraham?

Is Christ the fulfillment, or is Israel the fulfillment?

 

[covenantee]

The word "race" is understood, used, and identified every single day! You are wandering off point when you say that race doesn't save.

Race is identified via the expression of dominant gene(s). However, millennia of genetic dispersion and diffusion have resulted in the possession of the DNA of countless sources by each individual. These sources increase with each succeeding generation.

I said in the earlier post that culture does not save.

But God has promised *who* would be saved, and it would require that certain nations become Christian nations. And so, people from each of these nations must be saved because they result from obedience to Christ.

Nations are irrelevant. China is the antithesis of a Christian nation, yet the Church is unarguably stronger there than in numerous nominally Christian nations.

 

[Trekson]

Last chapter of Genesis, no Millennial Kingdom is seen, possibly I need a pair of your make believe fairy tale glasses to put on, smiles!

Genesis 50:1-26KJV
1 And Joseph fell upon his father's face, and wept upon him, and kissed him.
2 And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.
3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.
4 And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying,
5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.
6 And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear.
7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,
8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house: only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds, they left in the land of Goshen.
9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen: and it was a very great company.
10 And they came to the threshingfloor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation: and he made a mourning for his father seven days.
11 And when the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, saw the mourning in the floor of Atad, they said, This is a grievous mourning to the Egyptians: wherefore the name of it was called Abelmizraim, which is beyond Jordan.
12 And his sons did unto him according as he commanded them:
13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.
14 And Joseph returned into Egypt, he, and his brethren, and all that went up with him to bury his father, after he had buried his father.
15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.
16 And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.
22 And Joseph dwelt in Egypt, he, and his father's house: and Joseph lived an hundred and ten years.
23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third generation: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph's knees.
24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
26 So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.

Sorry, but Genesis isn't a book of "prophecy", it's a book of History. Try starting w/ Isaiah.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry, but Genesis isn't a book of "prophecy", it's a book of History. Try starting w/ Isaiah.

Genesis is a book of prophecy, what planet do you live on

Every person who is saved is a direct decendant of Abraham through Jesus Christ, "Father Abraham"

Genesis 26:4KJV
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

 

[covenantee]

Sorry, but Genesis isn't a book of "prophecy"

Scripture's first prophecy.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is Christ the fulfillment, or is Israel the fulfillment?

Christ is the basis of the fulfillment. Christ is the basis of Salvation.

Now that that is established we come to the question: what did God promise? What did Christ come to make possible, to fulfill?

I've said before, and I'll say again: Christ came to become the basis for the fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham. And His promises to Abraham were 2-fold: 1) Israel, as a nation, must become a Christian nation. And 2) many nations must become and remain Christian nations.

Though some of this has been in part fulfilled in the past, they are not completely fulfilled until Satan is bound, and the nations that are becoming Christian nations become fixed as such.

Up until now, Israel has failed to become fixed as "God's People." And Christian nations have failed to remain legitimately "Christian" nations. All these nations, called to be "theocracies," as such, have failed to remain faithful to their calling.

Christ came to establish grace as a means for all of these nations to return to their calling. Can I be any clearer about this? All of these nations necessarily fail, due to their being peopled by those saddled with the Sin Nature. And nations go from bad to worse.

But Christ provided grace as a means of restoring those who have failed. At the proper time Christ will judge and destroy the wicked who are steadfast in their rebellion against him. And those who come to be aware of their sins will be given grace to try again.

I'm not saying you have to agree with me. But you seem to have an inability to understand what I'm saying, perhaps because it runs cross-current to what you believe? I'm just asking that you understand my belief and recognize the logic behind it?

 

[covenantee]

I've said before, and I'll say again: Christ came to become the basis for the fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham. And His promises to Abraham were 2-fold: 1) Israel, as a nation, must become a Christian nation. And 2) many nations must become and remain Christian nations.

Neither 2 Corinthians 1:20 nor Galatians 3:16 nor a bunch of Hebrews, identify Christ as a "basis".

No Scripture does.

Christ Himself is the fulfillment.

There is no NT Scripture which even remotely hints that Israel as a nation is a fulfillment of anything.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Race is identified via the expression of dominant gene(s). However, millennia of genetic dispersion and diffusion have resulted in the possession of the DNA of countless sources by each individual. These sources increase with each succeeding generation.

I said in the earlier post that culture does not save.

Nations are irrelevant. China is the antithesis of a Christian nation, yet the Church is unarguably stronger there than in numerous nominally Christian nations.

I'm about to despair of your inability to understand or my inability to communicate this. Yes, genes are constantly being shuffled. Why do you persist in arguing this? I have not once denied that races are mingled with races and evolving into new racial concoctions.

Race is not a perfect alignment of DNA formulation to identify a "race." That would constitute a race of clones!

No, a race is a word representing an ethnological group. A nation can consist of one or more races, in which there is always a constant interplay between the various racial groups within the national group.

And despite this constant "shuffling" of DNA we still identify "racial groups." To deny this is to deny the Dictionary definition of "race." And if you do this, then you want to argue absurdities.

Ancient Israel always allowed the import of "foreigners" into the Hebrew race. Ultimately this "new DNA" was absorbed into the larger gene pool. And following exiles, and intermarriage, lawful or not, with pagans, the Hebrew gene pool became even more diluted.

Nevertheless, the cohesion of Hebrews under their Law bound them to a culture when they remained connected to each other and to the promise of a homeland in "Canaan." As such, Hebrews persisted in modern times as the "Jewish race."

If you wish to deny there is such a thing as "Jews," I'm done. My argument never depended upon pure Jewish DNA!

That has never been part of my argument. Fulfillment of God's plan to build a lasting theocratic nation among the descendants of Abraham has never required so-called "pure Jewish DNA!" It has only required the perseverance of Jews legitimately descended from Abraham and the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Neither 2 Corinthians 1:20 nor Galatians 3:16 nor a bunch of Hebrews, identify Christ as a "basis".

No Scripture does.

Christ Himself is the fulfillment.

There is no NT Scripture which even remotely hints that Israel as a nation is a fulfillment of anything.

Don't be ridiculous. I was using "basis" as a synonym for "fulfillment.

Christ is the "basis" for Israel's national restoration and for the restoration of Christian nations. Christ is the "fulfillment" for these things. To argue the word "basis" is a complete breakdown in our communication.

I did *not* say Israel is the fulfillment of anything. I said Christ is the fulfillment of God's promises, which means that he is both the fulfillment and the basis for these promises becoming fulfilled.

To take a simple example, a person pays *bail* when he is to be released pending his trial. The *bail* money is the "fulfillment" of the legal requirement, and the *bail* is also the "basis" of the person's temporary release from jail. "Bail," as such, is both the "fulfillment" and the "basis." They are the same thing, though payment of the bail and release from jail happen at different times.

 

[covenantee]

If you wish to deny there is such a thing as "Jews," I'm done.

I've steadfastly and consistently, with empirical and mathematical evidence acknowledged by the Jewish community itself, shown that the entirety of humanity are Jews. No denial there.

Fulfillment of God's plan to build a lasting theocratic nation among the descendants of Abraham has never required so-called "pure Jewish DNA!"

God's plan is exclusively to build His Church, His Holy Nation. All of humanity are descendants of Abraham. Those who accept God's Son are "lively stones" added to the Building of that Holy Nation.

It has only required the perseverance of Jews legitimately descended from Abraham and the 12 tribes of Israel.

All of humanity is descended from Abraham and the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've steadfastly and consistently, with empirical and mathematical evidence acknowledged by the Jewish community itself, shown that the entirety of humanity are Jews. No denial there.

You're as absurd as I thought you were! I don't believe the "Jewish Community" embraces your sense that the "entirety of humanity are Jews." Bye bye.

 

[covenantee]

You're as absurd as I thought you were! I don't believe the "Jewish Community" embraces your sense that the "entirety of humanity are Jews." Bye bye.

Check the origins of the links. The majority are from the Jewish community.

If you have evidence disproving what I've presented, please present yours.

"I don't believe" doesn't cut it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Check the origins of the links. The majority are from the Jewish community.

If you have evidence disproving what I've presented, please present yours.

"I don't believe" doesn't cut it.

If you think the entire human race are "Jews," by definition, then I need research no further. Can you imagine that I tell you there are no such thing as horses, burros, or donkeys, and that they are all the same--you should just consider various links that might say that?

The mixture of races by sexual relations does not prevent the definition of "Jew." I'm not interested in your links. You've lost all credibility.

You are trying to change the argument from the definition of "Jew" as an ethnological group to DNA purity. Nobody has been arguing "DNA purity!" What doesn't "cut it" is your attempt to change the argument.

I've had these arguments for over 20 years, and they're ridiculous. Jews identify their own as children of a Jewish mother. In other words, there has to be at least some continuity based on both genetics and culture.

Of course, one may also convert to Judaism and become a "Jew." So genetics is not critical, nor birth from a Jewish mother. The idea is to maintain a genetic link back to Abraham and to the 12 tribes of Israel. The introduction of foreign DNA does not prevent it from becoming immersed and enmeshed within the whole Jewish community.

So being Jewish is a cultural thing, including a religious thing. It is designed to keep the group identified as such in social interaction. It is not strictly about DNA, although the genetic link back to Abraham and to the 12 tribes of Israel must be maintained in some respects.

 

[covenantee]

If you think the entire human race are "Jews," by definition, then I need research no further. Can you imagine that I tell you there are no such horses, burros, or donkeys, and that they are all the same--you should just consider various links who might say that?

The mixture of races by sexual relations does not prevent the definition of "Jew." I'm not interested in your links. You've lost all credibility.

You are trying to change the argument from the definition of "Jew" as an ethnological group to DNA purity. Nobody has been arguing "DNA purity!" What doesn't "cut it" is your attempt to change the argument.

Awaiting your evidence.

 

[Keraz]

Who is the true Israel of God?
Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It cannot be just those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behaviour, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10

It was always possible for foreigners to become an Israelite, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant:
Leviticus 19:33-34…foreigners are to be treated as native born among you…..

Isaiah 56:1-8….foreigners who give their allegiance to Me will be acceptable in My House of Prayer…..I shall add them to those who are already gathered.

Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is accepted into the House of Israel. Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18


So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:

1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. Nobody today, has proof of ancestry back to Abraham . The study of genetics, shows that we all must have some of Abrahams genes.

2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.

3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17

Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Corinthians 1:20
So now all we Christians, Jew and Gentile; in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the grafted in branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel.

Jews have been cut off, but can be grafted back, as individual Christian believers. Bible prophecy proves that only a remnant will do that. Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 6:1-14, Zechariah 13:7-9, Romans 9:27

The faithful Christians are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, 7-9, Isaiah 56:1-8



This truth that: all righteous Christians are the Israelites of God, Galatians 6:16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. Those who claim to be Jewish Israelis will not be redeemed and they face many Prophesies of their Judgment and punishment. Zechariah 1:14-18

The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27. Romans 9:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:24-26

 

[ScottA]

Per Daniel 12 we know that spiritual and secular knowledge will increase in the latter days yet many of us cling to millennia and centuries old eschatologies even though there is no real modern scriptural basis for them. Beliefs like amill, postmill, preterism and historicism need to be upgraded because we should be no longer bound to generations that didn’t have the scientific and spiritual insights that God has granted us in these latter days.

In the past few decades and even in the past couple of years we have learned things that should have caused many of us to realize that futurism is what Revelations is all about and if one is paying attention, God has affirmed these truths to us in several ways. Imo, the only reason peoples eyes aren’t opening is because of pride, selective blindness or traditionalism.

A lot of these beliefs came into being because of what I consider to be spiritual impatience. “Surely, Christ wouldn’t have stayed away this long, we must have overlooked something”. So since the reality of latter days prophecies were literally incomprehensible, they made up “symbolic and spiritual fulfilments” to compensate themselves for their eschatological weaknesses. Imo, if many of the “fathers” of these false eschatologies were witness to the prophetic events beginning w/ 1948 and including these present days they would never have come into being.

So what has God been showing us that should give those folks a wake-up call? There are at least 8 events that should cause true students of the bible to rethink their ancient eschatologies and take a literal approach towards prophecy. First, we now know that various size meteors could cause the damages in Rev. 8. We know that China alone has a military exceeding the 200 million of Rev. 9:16. Through satellite technology and the internet we now know how Rev. 11:9 will become a literal reality.

We know that Israel and Jerusalem are back on the world scene and some should no longer use their lack of existence to keep replacement theology a reality “when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”! With the recent hasty withdrawal from Afghanistan we can now see how Rev. 12:14 will become a reality. With the anti-christian rhetoric even with our own American politicians we can see how easily it could escalate into a severe time of persecution and martyrdom known as the “great tribulation”! With the vaccine mandates and modern technology we can see how easily Rev. 13:16-17 would literally be fulfilled and how easily the world would fall for their deceptions and “believe the lie”! With all the ships sitting offshore waiting to be unloaded we can see what Rev. 18:17-19 will look like when that becomes a reality.

God has graciously given us these signs so that those who have been deceived by eschatologies from the past will wake-up and realize that time is indeed short for His return and to not be so arrogant and so self-assured in their false beliefs that they would foolishly accept the mark of the beast (whatever form that takes) when it makes its appearance. The question becomes: Are you listening?!

Old eschatologies, if changed or not, are changed by the spirit of God. Men are not actually in control of God's word, He is. The word of God is God's providence alone. No man is in a position to do anything more with eschatologies than is allowed them.

What that means, is that the changes that do or do not change--are intended by God, regardless of men.

Now...does that mean that one who is moved by the spirit of God should not freely give what has been given to them? Of course not, but such things come both for and against what is true with God, for the purpose that it is given by God. Sometimes that means good men of God giving what is true, sometimes giving what is not true; and sometimes that means ungodly men giving what is true and good or evil. For this reason we have been advised to test every spirit.

It is hard to imagine, but the reality of every generation needing to have an equal opportunity to face good and evil in their time of decision, means all of this and more.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's amazing. Some here want to argue that the genetic element in the Jewish People means that cannot be important in their Salvation! But God's Promise made it important--regardless of how diluted the Jewish People have become with the introduction of many Gentiles into their mix. It was a religious compromise, but it did not end the Jewish People.

It is correct that God is non-discriminatory in the sense that His Salvation is not partial to only one race. It has *never* been partial to only the Jewish People. What is discriminatory, however, is not a matter of bigotry. You must always discriminate, in Contract Law, the parties who are under contract with one another. To say *who they are* isn't important completely invalidates the agreement.

God made a contract with the Jewish People, and it was in fact important that they were Jews when considering that they specifically were a party to the contract. The same thing is true under the New Covenant--God has made a contract with various ethnicities, and each ethnicity is important when considering each contractual relationship. It is important that they be Germans when God has contracted to save those among the German people. It is important that Germany as a nation be identified as such if God makes a contract with the German nation.

This is not bigotry. Neither is "being Jewish." It is just a factor identifying who it is God is contracting with. Salvation is impartial, but it is certainly important that God has promised to save the Jewish People from extinction. It wouldn't be relevant if God saved the German People from extinction and allowed the Jewish People to be extinguished!

God's promises are in fact important. The specifics and details should not be discarded simply because God is non-bigoted and against partiality. Identifying each party among several parties is the opposite of bigotry. The fact there are more than a single party being saved means there has been no partiality. But identifying a particular ethnicity and nationality is important for purposes of identifying who is being saved from extinction in each instance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Fact: the dispersal of individual throughout humanity does not prevent the identification of races. The identification of the Jewish race is not upended by the fact Jewish blood has been interspersed throughout humanity. There is still something called "Jews." There is still something called "Germans." There is still something called "Slavs."

In matters of Salvation God is not partial towards Jews, Germans, or Slavs--He has promised to save some of all of them. But it is critical that God distinguishes nations for deliverance from extinction if indeed He has made promises to preserve certain nations and races associated with Jews, Germans, and Slavs.

Salvation is still a matter of the individual Jew, German, or Slav accepting Christ personally. But God's promise to preserve the society and the nationality of Jews, Germans, and Slaves remains important and crucial. God's integrity is at stake if indeed He has promised these things! And I believe those things are important to ensure that individuals within these groups hear the Gospel and obtain Eternal Life.

If it is crucial that there be such a thing as a large evangelical meeting, then it can still be said that the individual accepting Christ is what makes Salvation. But the large evangelical meeting is also critical in this process of leading the individual to make his decision.

In the same way, God felt it was crucial to perpetuate certain nations and ethnological groups in order to perpetuate a process leading to many of these groups coming to Salvation. There is a difference between nations and ethnicities being delivered from extinction and the individuals within them getting saved!