Why Old Eschatologies Should Be Updated

[covenantee]

I have said repeatedly that God's promises are proven to be irrevocable

To whom are they irrevocable?

 

[Trekson]

You should try actually reading your Bible:

Entering the Promised Land:
Isaiah 62:10 Hoist a signal to the peoples, clear a road, go out you people of Zion.

Isaiah 49:11-12 I shall make a highway for My people, they come from every direction.

Isaiah 40:1-4 Comfort My people, their penalty is paid. Prepare a highway through the waste lands, make smooth the way.

Isaiah 11:11-12 On that Day, the Lord will recover the remnant of His people from the four corners of the world.

Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites from their places of exile around the world, assemble them and restore them to their own soil. Israel and Judah will rejoin and one leader will rule over them all. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

Micah 2:12 I shall assemble the whole House of Jacob and gather you like sheep into a sheep yard, the Lord will lead the way. The same as before: 1 Corinthians 10:4

Ezekiel 34:11-12 Now I will search for My sheep...where they are scattered on the Day of wrath.

Hosea 8:10 I will now round up My people....

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people, from all the countries they are in and bring them back to live in Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Isaiah 60:1-9 Jerusalem, your Light will shine on you, your sons and daughters are coming back to you. Vessels assemble to bring your children from far away.

Jeremiah 16:15-16 I shall hunt for My people from wherever they are now dispersed and bring them back to the Land that I gave to their forefathers.

Zechariah 10:8-10 I shall whistle to call in My people, for I have delivered them and they will be as many as they used to be. Though dispersed among the nations, they will remember Me. I will lead them into the Land until there is no more room for them.

Isaiah 52:11-12 Go out of Babylon, [the ungodly nations] keep yourselves pure, you will not leave like fugitives or in urgent haste. The Lord will go before you, to guide and guard you.

Isaiah 66:20 From every nation you will be brought, on every kind of transport...

Isaiah 35:8-10 A highway will appear, the Way of Holiness, by that way all those the Lord has redeemed will enter Zion, with shouts of triumph and great joy.

Isaiah 49:9-13 I will lead My people along paths beside streams, they will neither hunger or thirst, nor will scorching heat affect them. They come, some from far away, in every direction, on level highways, for the Lord comforts them in their distress.

Jeremiah 31:8-9 See how I bring My people from every part of the earth, the blind, lame and pregnant women among them. They are a vast company, weeping as they come home, but I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.

Isaiah 30:21 A voice from behind you will tell you the right path to follow.

Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will be your guide and will satisfy your needs in the desert. You will rebuild the ruins, you will be called the restorers of the Land.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 I will show compassion and restore all Israel, they will live once more in their homeland, free from their enemies. I will leave none of them behind.

Ezekiel 20:42 You will know that I am the Lord, [not present as yet, before the Return of Jesus] when I bring you home to the Land of Israel. The Land I swore to give to your ancestors.

Psalm 68:7-10 Lord, You go before Your people, marching through the barren wastelands. When Your Land languishes You restore it. You send rain and there Your people settle. In Your goodness, You provide for the needy.

Hosea 2:14-23 Now, I shall woo them and lead them into the wilderness, I will restore them ......they will be My new sowing in the Land. I will say: ‘You are My people’ and they will say: ‘ You are our God’. [The Lord is not seen – the same as the 1st Exodus]

Micah 7:11-12 The Day the people return to the Land will be a Day to extend your boundaries.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 The Land will become fruitful and the whole House of Israel will settle there, they will increase, more prosperous then in ancient days. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

All that confirms what I said.

 

[Trekson]

They were terms and conditions of the old covenant contract between God and those who were faithful and obedient to Him.

If they had been separate covenants, we would have more than one old testament today.

That's not so. The word covenant just means an agreement, a contract, a treaty, etc. A deed to a plot of land is different paperwork from a will or the ten commandments, they're not the same.

 

[Randy Kluth]

To whom are they irrevocable?

Just read them. Promises are made to someone. It's in the text.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Galatians 3:17 affirms Galatians 3:16.

What answer do you have?

That's a fine way of having an answer--you ask me to answer it. I've told you what it means. It means that the covenant God made with Abraham consisted in part of an irrevocable promise.

The aspects of that covenant having to do with OT truths were temporary. Circumcision, for example, was a temporary OT provision. The part that constituted God's *promises* was irrevocable.

Gal 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

You're suggesting a very common error, thinking that Paul was arguing that "seed" only referred to Christ. Rather, his argument was that "seed" is representative of the fact Israel was intended to be identified as a composite singular, associated with the one man Christ.

There is no way Paul failed to understand that the promise God made to Abraham involved his descendants, plural! Paul is simply stating that this group was framed as a composite, united in the Spirit of Christ. The true descendants of Abraham would be identified as a spiritual people, and not strictly the genetic heirs of Abraham.

This is easily provable, except that foolish, hard-hearted people will never give up their pride no matter how much evidence is presented to them. The Genesis account clearly identifies the "seed" as Abraham's descendants, plural!

So Paul was merely showing how physical inheritance does not alone constitute Abraham's heirs. They have to also be identified with Christ, a single individual. They have to be united in Spirit with him.

This doesn't in the least mean that God didn't promise He would extract from the physical descendants of Abraham literal Jews who would convert to Christ. In fact, God promised that the nation would convert to Christianity in order to achieve this Christian group among the Jews.

It wasn't a promise that all individuals in the nation would become reborn Christians. But it was a promise that the nation would convert to the New Covenant of Christ, embracing Christianity as the exclusive religion for their future state. As a result, God would fulfill what He promised to Abraham, that there would be a nation filled with his spiritual heirs.

 

[covenantee]

Just read them. Promises are made to someone. It's in the text.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If you investigate gifts and calling in the NT, you will find that they apply solely and exclusively to those who are in Christ, His Church.

They are the "someone".

 

[covenantee]

You're suggesting a very common error, thinking that Paul was arguing that "seed" only referred to Christ. Rather, his argument was that "seed" is representative of the fact Israel was intended to be identified as a composite singular, associated with the one man Christ.

Nothing whatever to do with Israel, as Paul confirms in Galatians 3:28-29. "There is neither Jew nor Greek..." in Christ.

Stop trying to contort Christ into a racist.

This is easily provable, except that foolish, hard-hearted people will never give up their pride no matter how much evidence is presented to them. The Genesis account clearly identifies the "seed" as Abraham's descendants, plural!

You need a new pair of spectacles.

Genesis 22:18 Hebrew
2233 [e]
ḇə·zar·‘ă·ḵā,
בְזַרְעֲךָ֔
in your seed
Prep‑b | N‑msc | 2ms

N-msc = Noun-masculine singular construct
2ms = second person masculine singular

What were you saying about foolish hard-hearted people?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If you investigate gifts and calling in the NT, you will find that they apply solely and exclusively to those who are in Christ, His Church.

They are the "someone".

God made promises to Abraham and to David, among many others. They would belong to the "Church" only in the future--not in the time in which they lived. So again, the "who" to which God made promises were Abraham and the 12 tribes of Israel, among many others. And we both agree that *all* of God's promises are fulfilled through Christ. Without redemption, no promise will be of ultimate help to us in our lives.

God also made promises to Israel even in her darkened, sinful condition. They would later become a part of the Church, but not at the time in which this promise was made.

Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

 

[Keraz]

There is no way Paul failed to understand that the promise God made to Abraham involved his descendants, plural! Paul is simply stating that this group was framed as a composite, united in the Spirit of Christ. The true descendants of Abraham would be identified as a spiritual people, and not strictly the genetic heirs of Abraham.

This is easily provable, except that foolish, hard-hearted people will never give up their pride no matter how much evidence is presented to them. The Genesis account clearly identifies the "seed" as Abraham's descendants, plural!

So Paul was merely showing how physical inheritance does not alone constitute Abraham's heirs. They have to also be identified with Christ, a single individual. They have to be united in Spirit with him.

This is good and Biblically correct.

It wasn't a promise that all individuals in the nation would become reborn Christians. But it was a promise that the nation would convert to the New Covenant of Christ, embracing Christianity as the exclusive religion for their future state. As a result, God would fulfill what He promised to Abraham, that there would be a nation filled with his spiritual heirs.

This is right too, but not if it is believed that the 'nation' is the one which falsely calls itself Israel, currently in possession of a small part of the holy Land.
That entity is Prophesied to be virtually wiped out in the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 22:14

THEN; all the faithful peoples of God, will gather and live there. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-8, prove the holy people are there when the 'beast' gains world control.

 

[covenantee]

God made promises to Abraham and to David, among many others. They would belong to the "Church" only in the future--not in the time in which they lived. So again, the "who" to which God made promises were Abraham and the 12 tribes of Israel, among many others. And we both agree that *all* of God's promises are fulfilled through Christ. Without redemption, no promise will be of ultimate help to us in our lives.

God also made promises to Israel even in her darkened, sinful condition. They would later become a part of the Church, but not at the time in which this promise was made.

Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

Obviously you haven't investigated gifts and calling.

Try again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You've still got it wrong, bro.

The promises are testamentary clauses in a Will and Testament, and a New Will and Testament completely replaces an old will and testament.

Thus, all of the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16; and a whole bunch of Hebrews); and in the New Will and Testament written in His Blood.

That's how Wills and Testaments work.

the Old testament is about the law

the covenant God made with Abraham was before the law. and is still binding. We know this because God placed no conditions on it. and said this covenant was eternal.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Obviously you haven't investigated gifts and calling.

Try again.

better yet. Study Gods promise to abraham, there are many parts to it. Some apply to all nations of the world. Some apply to only one nation..

we need to learn the difference between the two. One is salvic. one is not..

 

[covenantee]

better yet. Study Gods promise to abraham, there are many parts to it. Some apply to all nations of the world. Some apply to only one nation..

we need to learn the difference between the two. One is salvic. one is not..

Romans 11:29 applies to the Holy Nation of the Church. Some need to learn who the Church is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 11:29 applies to the Holy Nation of the Church. Some need to learn who the Church is.

your wrong.

The church is al people who will ever be saved from adam until the last man or woman saved.

Romans 11 is about Gods promise to Abraham concerning his son Isaac and Jacob and all of their descendents.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Obviously you haven't investigated gifts and calling.

Try again.

I've been a charismatic since around 1971. You try again.... ;)
Granted, you may be taking "gifts and calling" differently. But that has been the emphasis of the Charismatic Movement since it began. And that's just about all I heard early on. So it sounds kind of funny that you suggest I haven't "investigated that."

Have you ever considered that I may not be out in left field in these matters? I have no axe to grind, brother. I'm committed to Christ, not to a particular theological school.

 

[ewq1938]

God made promises to Abraham and to David, among many others. They would belong to the "Church" only in the future--not in the time in which they lived.

Why not in the time they lived? Did they not worship God? A church is a group of believers not a building people go to.

 

[covenantee]

I've been a charismatic since around 1971. You try again.... ;)
Granted, you may be taking "gifts and calling" differently. But that has been the emphasis of the Charismatic Movement since it began. And that's just about all I heard early on. So it sounds kind of funny that you suggest I haven't "investigated that."

Have you ever considered that I may not be out in left field in these matters? I have no axe to grind, brother. I'm committed to Christ, not to a particular theological school.

You seem to have difficulty understanding investigation, so let me help.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts are bestowed exclusively upon His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (without repentance).


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (without repentance).

 

[Randy Kluth]

You seem to have difficulty understanding investigation, so let me help.

So now you're going to school me? ;)

I don't think a single thing you're saying has anything to do with what we've been trying to discuss. It seems like just another diversion.

If you're trying to avoid the fact God made promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I can see why you want to avoid that....

 

[covenantee]

So now you're going to school me? ;)

I don't think a single thing you're saying has anything to do with what we've been trying to discuss. It seems like just another diversion.

If you're trying to avoid the fact God made promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I can see why you want to avoid that....

Scripture schools you.

You're the one who brought up "irrrevocable" without knowing where and how in Scripture the word is used.

I cited Scripture to enlighten you.

Now you can't remember what you did.

Sorry, there's nothing I can offer for your poor memory.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture schools you.

You're the one who brought up "irrrevocable" without knowing where and how in Scripture the word is used.

I cited Scripture to enlighten you.

Now you can't remember what you did.

Sorry, there's nothing I can offer for your poor memory.

Oh my memory comes and goes. I'll tell you what you did, though. You wanted to know who the promises were made to? You say the Church, and I said the context demands that we acknowledge that Abraham and his Seed refer to Abraham and his descendants, as they are congregated in Christ spiritually.

So you don't school me, and you can't use the Scriptures to school me. You're just arrogant. You divert and won't answer the questions. Who was Abraham's Seed, to whom the promises were made? It was Abraham and his descendants, Israel. And Paul noted that the singular use of "Seed" indicates the true descendants would have to be representative of Christ.

The promises that God made are irrevocable because God cannot fail to perform His word. He says what He means, and what He says goes. How's that for "poor memory?"