BLACK SHEEP
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- May 24, 2013
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In response to iamlamad,
Pre-trib Christian's think that because God is a loving God He won't let them endure the tribulation. However. His Word is full of examples where He lets His people suffer tribulation. He doesn't remove them from it but He helps them "through it." But that doesn't matter to a misled pre-tribulationist.
The Lord returns for a church without spot or wrinkle. That's one reason Christian's will endure the tribulation. To purify the church! He will protect them through it!
Did God take the Israelites out of Egypt before the plagues or did He protect them through the plagues while they were still in Egypt?
Did God save Daniel from the lions den or through it?
Did God save Joseph from prison and slavery or through it?
Did God save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace or through it?
Did God take Job out of his tribulations or did he save him through them?
Studying the bible over the course of several years, I have found that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest and most logical one. Pretribulationism is the most complicated and fabricated of all Christian doctrines. It's the most fabricated mess of a doctrine that I have ever seen. It is one fabrication built upon another fabrication which always results into several contradictions which again requires other fabrications to counter those contradictions.
Any doctrine that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The evangelical experts like Thomas Ice and his rabid clan of pre-tribbers have taken what is a timely and strategic act of kindness and turned it into a terror attack. They have made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. They have taken something simple and pristine and perverted it all to the disgrace of God. They have taken the scriptures far out of context and have added a false hope of sensationalism. It's the most deceitful and widely held false doctrine of the church age.
There are a host of problems with pretribulationism. One is that there is not one verse that say's Jesus will return "before" the tribulation. And wouldn't you think that an event as profound as a pretrib rapture, which sounds more like a terror attack that kills millions as Jesus takes you Christian's to heaven, would be clearly outlined in scripture? The entire doctrine is a fabrication of Satan himself.
If pretribulationism were true, then I would suspect that God would not have left us confused and in the dark about it. Wouldn't there be some verses that clearly state Christ returns before the tribulation? Of the many verses that speak of His second advent and the Day of the Lord, wouldn't you expect there to be a least one verse that states He returns prior to the tribulation? What pretribulationist have to prove more than a rapture is that somewhere in God's Holy Word Christ is said to return before the tribulation. We all agree that he does return after the tribulation. But pretribulationist don't care that Jesus said the gathering occurs after the tribulation. They simply fabricate another return and another rapture, and change the timing of the Day of the Lord and the marriage supper of the Lamb! And then they ask, "who will populate the millennium?"
If a word study is done on the elect of Mathew 24, it refutes pretribulationism. It's that simple. But will pretribulationist repent of distorting the word of God? Of course not!
The word 'elect' in Mathew 24 means Christian's. It also does in the following verses...
I see that iamlamad likes to use the original text. That is as long as it doesn't debunk his pre-trib rapture!
Result of search for "elect":
1588. eklektos ek-lek-tos' from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah is called "elect", (as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14
(elect/chosen=same word)
John the Christian said,
However, this rather long list of evidence does not appear to matter to Hal Lindsey and friends. They would like you to believe that Mt. 24 was written for and refering to "Jews" and not christians.
They yet refuse to view the elect of Matthew 24 as Christians, and they have no qualms about teaching you falsely as long as you line up with their pre-trib' views. To be most accurate, let me show you a reading of the Biblical verse that coincides with my Greek interlinear:
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).
We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7),
>that it entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),
>that the gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17),
>and that God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe this verse is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation." (So begins the fabrication process)
Rather than humbly accepting a post-tribulation rapture, then, and rather than admitting that the Bible has concrete language to that end, they attempt to undermine all by altering the meaning of one word, "elect," so that it becomes a reference to the Jews alone, and not at all to Christians. The Church is thereby removed from the text and, therefore, from the event completely.
This is serious infringement; the entire discourse here on the end times is affected...we are no longer led to view the bulk of Matthew 24 as a warning for Christians, but solely for Jews.
It's pure manipulation and arrogance against the words of the Son of God. How else am I to understand the pre-tribulationists when they give Old-Testament cross references alone for Matthew's elect? Pathetic is the word! Of course the "elect" of the Old Testament are going to be Jews and nothing but Jews!
Quite often an attack is aborted because of the high risk of civilian casualties. Now think about this...
What does a country usually do when they are about to invade another country? They remove their civilians to get them out of harms way!
When a military division is on the front lines and they see the enemy pull a sudden evacuation, commanders on the other side know that there's very likely a nuclear warhead coming at them. They don't want to destroy themselves by the friendly fire of a nuke. So they evacuate.
When our Lord returns to do battle against the beast(s) and to destroy those who destroy the earth, He removes his own in order to avoid "friendly fire". Logical enough?
We are told to endure tribulation in many verses.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.Top of Form 1
Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1 Thes 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
The saints are in the middle of tribulation in the following verses in Revelation!
5:8, 8:3, 8:4 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9
Here are a few of them...
Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev.14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev. 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Are you getting the picture of how fabricated and unscriptural pretribulation is?
When we are in the middle of tribulation, the heathen will scoff at pretribulationist, and many Christians will not understand the time of his return.
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
The pretribulationist would like you to believe that the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4 or 5.
But saints, servants, fellow servants, martyrs and brethren are the church, and they are mentioned throughout Revelation. The saints go through tribulation!
Now think about this for a minute. If most Christians are not expecting to be here, then they have no need to prepare for tribulation. And most of them are not preparing!
Pre-tribbers will just continue with one fabrication after another to cover up their colossal blunders. Will they ever repent, accept the truth, and admit they've accepted a lie and come out of denial?
The churches eschatology is full of blunders anyway. Let's see. A pre-trib rapture? A global dictator? A one world government? A united one world religion? A worldwide mark of the beast? A rebuilt temple? Put all these doctrines together and you have got one misled church.
I have said it many times. Pretribulationism is the most deceptive and widely held false doctrine of the church age. It has done a lot to hurt the church and God is not pleased with it. I say He is disappointed with HIS CHURCH.
Christians are moving away from pretribulationism as the contradictions continue to come to light.
Iamlamad,
You have fallen for and are obsessed with pre-tribulationism. I have read most or your replies and you have perverted God's Word and grossly taken it out of context. You're approach to understanding scripture is not hermeneutical, you disregard the contradictions. Are very opinionated, beyond speculative, and have accepted a complicated, fabricated mess of lies and contradictions thanks to your mentors like Thomas Ice. The Words of Jesus and the Word of God are simple and concise and easy to understand. You have grossly perverted them.
What will you do when the harlot's of the most primitive religions (Islam) in the world bring us into tribulation by detonating the most sophisticated weapons in the world? What will you do when the abominations of the earth come full force and everybody is still here? What will you do when the Arab/Muslim world refuses to enter the NWO and the Middle-East unites into an evil ten nation Islamic Empire...and your still here?
If there is a pretrib rapture the most you can say to me is "I told you so!" However, if there isn't, you and all the others have a lot to confront. Will you continue to fabricate even more stuff to support the false doctrine you have latched onto? Or will you repent of your thinking, come clean and admit you've been misled and mistaken and come to the knowledge of the truth, and go from there?
Paul does not say that there is one way to know for sure when you are "in the day of the Lord." In fact there is nothing in the text that indicates being "IN" the Day of the Lord. He is quoted as saying what events must come first or BEFORE the day of the Lord. Which are....
The rebellion (apostasy) and the revelation of the man of sin.
...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed
...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness
You have misinterpreted and perverted the scriptures again!
Another colossal blunder!
You're having trouble understanding truths in God's Word, and even perverting it, because you put your false eschatology above common sense.
Maybe you should have quoted what Thayer also said about the word "first."
He said, "First..In either time or place, in any succession of things or of persons.
First: proton
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour
Pre-trib Christian's think that because God is a loving God He won't let them endure the tribulation. However. His Word is full of examples where He lets His people suffer tribulation. He doesn't remove them from it but He helps them "through it." But that doesn't matter to a misled pre-tribulationist.
The Lord returns for a church without spot or wrinkle. That's one reason Christian's will endure the tribulation. To purify the church! He will protect them through it!
Did God take the Israelites out of Egypt before the plagues or did He protect them through the plagues while they were still in Egypt?
Did God save Daniel from the lions den or through it?
Did God save Joseph from prison and slavery or through it?
Did God save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace or through it?
Did God take Job out of his tribulations or did he save him through them?
Studying the bible over the course of several years, I have found that the correct interpretation is usually the simplest and most logical one. Pretribulationism is the most complicated and fabricated of all Christian doctrines. It's the most fabricated mess of a doctrine that I have ever seen. It is one fabrication built upon another fabrication which always results into several contradictions which again requires other fabrications to counter those contradictions.
Any doctrine that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The evangelical experts like Thomas Ice and his rabid clan of pre-tribbers have taken what is a timely and strategic act of kindness and turned it into a terror attack. They have made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. They have taken something simple and pristine and perverted it all to the disgrace of God. They have taken the scriptures far out of context and have added a false hope of sensationalism. It's the most deceitful and widely held false doctrine of the church age.
There are a host of problems with pretribulationism. One is that there is not one verse that say's Jesus will return "before" the tribulation. And wouldn't you think that an event as profound as a pretrib rapture, which sounds more like a terror attack that kills millions as Jesus takes you Christian's to heaven, would be clearly outlined in scripture? The entire doctrine is a fabrication of Satan himself.
During the tribulation unbelievers will "scoff" at pretribulationist.
Remember that according to pre-tribbers, if there's no rapture that means the anti-christ isn't revealed yet and we are not in tribulation. We will be deep into the tribulation and the so called prophecy experts will have excuse after excuse and new fabrications to explain why they are still here and why we are not yet in the tribulation! And since they are still here, there are still seven years left!If pretribulationism were true, then I would suspect that God would not have left us confused and in the dark about it. Wouldn't there be some verses that clearly state Christ returns before the tribulation? Of the many verses that speak of His second advent and the Day of the Lord, wouldn't you expect there to be a least one verse that states He returns prior to the tribulation? What pretribulationist have to prove more than a rapture is that somewhere in God's Holy Word Christ is said to return before the tribulation. We all agree that he does return after the tribulation. But pretribulationist don't care that Jesus said the gathering occurs after the tribulation. They simply fabricate another return and another rapture, and change the timing of the Day of the Lord and the marriage supper of the Lamb! And then they ask, "who will populate the millennium?"
If a word study is done on the elect of Mathew 24, it refutes pretribulationism. It's that simple. But will pretribulationist repent of distorting the word of God? Of course not!
The word 'elect' in Mathew 24 means Christian's. It also does in the following verses...
I see that iamlamad likes to use the original text. That is as long as it doesn't debunk his pre-trib rapture!
Result of search for "elect":
1588. eklektos ek-lek-tos' from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah is called "elect", (as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
The word elect means Christian's in every one of the following verses.
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14
(elect/chosen=same word)
John the Christian said,
However, this rather long list of evidence does not appear to matter to Hal Lindsey and friends. They would like you to believe that Mt. 24 was written for and refering to "Jews" and not christians.
They yet refuse to view the elect of Matthew 24 as Christians, and they have no qualms about teaching you falsely as long as you line up with their pre-trib' views. To be most accurate, let me show you a reading of the Biblical verse that coincides with my Greek interlinear:
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days...he will send his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather his elect out of the four winds from the extremities of the skies unto their extremities"(Matthew 24:29-31).
We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7),
>that it entails angels gathering Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14),
>that the gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17),
>and that God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe this verse is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation." (So begins the fabrication process)
Rather than humbly accepting a post-tribulation rapture, then, and rather than admitting that the Bible has concrete language to that end, they attempt to undermine all by altering the meaning of one word, "elect," so that it becomes a reference to the Jews alone, and not at all to Christians. The Church is thereby removed from the text and, therefore, from the event completely.
This is serious infringement; the entire discourse here on the end times is affected...we are no longer led to view the bulk of Matthew 24 as a warning for Christians, but solely for Jews.
It's pure manipulation and arrogance against the words of the Son of God. How else am I to understand the pre-tribulationists when they give Old-Testament cross references alone for Matthew's elect? Pathetic is the word! Of course the "elect" of the Old Testament are going to be Jews and nothing but Jews!
Why does Christ remove his "elect" after the tribulation?
Quite often an attack is aborted because of the high risk of civilian casualties. Now think about this...
What does a country usually do when they are about to invade another country? They remove their civilians to get them out of harms way!
When a military division is on the front lines and they see the enemy pull a sudden evacuation, commanders on the other side know that there's very likely a nuclear warhead coming at them. They don't want to destroy themselves by the friendly fire of a nuke. So they evacuate.
When our Lord returns to do battle against the beast(s) and to destroy those who destroy the earth, He removes his own in order to avoid "friendly fire". Logical enough?
We are told to endure tribulation in many verses.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.Top of Form 1
Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
1 Thes 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
The saints are in the middle of tribulation in the following verses in Revelation!
5:8, 8:3, 8:4 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9
Here are a few of them...
Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev.14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev. 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Are you getting the picture of how fabricated and unscriptural pretribulation is?
When we are in the middle of tribulation, the heathen will scoff at pretribulationist, and many Christians will not understand the time of his return.
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
The pretribulationist would like you to believe that the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 4 or 5.
But saints, servants, fellow servants, martyrs and brethren are the church, and they are mentioned throughout Revelation. The saints go through tribulation!
Now think about this for a minute. If most Christians are not expecting to be here, then they have no need to prepare for tribulation. And most of them are not preparing!
Pre-tribbers will just continue with one fabrication after another to cover up their colossal blunders. Will they ever repent, accept the truth, and admit they've accepted a lie and come out of denial?
The churches eschatology is full of blunders anyway. Let's see. A pre-trib rapture? A global dictator? A one world government? A united one world religion? A worldwide mark of the beast? A rebuilt temple? Put all these doctrines together and you have got one misled church.
I have said it many times. Pretribulationism is the most deceptive and widely held false doctrine of the church age. It has done a lot to hurt the church and God is not pleased with it. I say He is disappointed with HIS CHURCH.
Christians are moving away from pretribulationism as the contradictions continue to come to light.
Iamlamad,
You have fallen for and are obsessed with pre-tribulationism. I have read most or your replies and you have perverted God's Word and grossly taken it out of context. You're approach to understanding scripture is not hermeneutical, you disregard the contradictions. Are very opinionated, beyond speculative, and have accepted a complicated, fabricated mess of lies and contradictions thanks to your mentors like Thomas Ice. The Words of Jesus and the Word of God are simple and concise and easy to understand. You have grossly perverted them.
What will you do when the harlot's of the most primitive religions (Islam) in the world bring us into tribulation by detonating the most sophisticated weapons in the world? What will you do when the abominations of the earth come full force and everybody is still here? What will you do when the Arab/Muslim world refuses to enter the NWO and the Middle-East unites into an evil ten nation Islamic Empire...and your still here?
If there is a pretrib rapture the most you can say to me is "I told you so!" However, if there isn't, you and all the others have a lot to confront. Will you continue to fabricate even more stuff to support the false doctrine you have latched onto? Or will you repent of your thinking, come clean and admit you've been misled and mistaken and come to the knowledge of the truth, and go from there?
Not true!!!Paul then tells them there is one way to know for sure when you are IN the day of the Lord: first you have to see two events take place. 1) the apostasia 2) the revealing of the Beast. When someone sees these two events, they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord.
Paul does not say that there is one way to know for sure when you are "in the day of the Lord." In fact there is nothing in the text that indicates being "IN" the Day of the Lord. He is quoted as saying what events must come first or BEFORE the day of the Lord. Which are....
The rebellion (apostasy) and the revelation of the man of sin.
...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed
...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness
You have misinterpreted and perverted the scriptures again!
WOW!first means first in RANK, not first in numbering sequence.
Another colossal blunder!
You're having trouble understanding truths in God's Word, and even perverting it, because you put your false eschatology above common sense.
Maybe you should have quoted what Thayer also said about the word "first."
He said, "First..In either time or place, in any succession of things or of persons.
First: proton
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour