Retrobyter said:
Second, the way that most who believe in the pretribulational Rapture put it, they will take 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and say that a resurrection occurs when the saints (whom they call the "church") are raptured! My question is this: What gives pretribulational rapturists the right to say that this is a separate resurrection occurring BEFORE the resurrection that is noted in Revelation 20:4-6? THAT'S the issue! What separates the fate of the "church" from the fate of OT believers?! Can't these supposed two resurrections actually be just one? If one would simply abandon the idea that the believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians have to be whisked off to "Heaven" when they are raptured, they CAN be the same! Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 again carefully:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Where did Paul say that we go with Yeshua` back to "Heaven?" HE DIDN'T! We meet the Master "in the air," and we shall be "with the Master" from then on, but it doesn't say WHERE we are going from there! These are things every pretribulational rapturist must answer.
ok let me try and answer your question here. since you seem sincere in knowing the truth i will tell you what i believe. this may take a while since i have to look up scripture to support my claims. lets start by understanding the seven things necessary in order to understand the end time prophesy. these are 1) The Sequence of Major End Time Events, 2) The Destiny of the Three Components of Humanity, 3) The Purpose and Length of the Great Tribulation, 4) The Purpose of the Rapture, 5) The Conditions Surrounding the 2nd Coming, 6) The Purpose and Length of the Millennium, and 7) Eternity.
we will start with the Sequence of Major End Time Events, the best way to figure it out is to perform what the business world sometimes calls a back scheduling exercise. It involves going to the very end of a process and identifying the final outcome. Then you list all the things that have to happen to produce that outcome. Then you put them in reverse order, backing into the present. It’s simpler than it sounds, and much simpler in prophecy than in business because there are many fewer events to organize. We’ll list the major events first, then we’ll organize them.
Almost everyone knows about the 2nd Coming and Eternity, and many also have heard of the Rapture of the Church and the Great Tribulation. But there’s also the Millennial Kingdom, Daniel’s 70th Week, and the Battles of Ezekiel 38-39, Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17; a total of nine major events yet to come.
We all think of Eternity as the final outcome, and so starting at the end means we begin there. But the last major event described in any detail in the Bible is the Kingdom Age or Millennium. It’s the Lord’s 1000 year reign on Earth, which is distinguished from and precedes Eternity. The Millennium obviously can’t begin till after the Second Coming, because that’s when the Lord returns to establish it. And according to
Matt. 24:29-30 the Second Coming won’t happen till the end of the Great Tribulation. And that can’t happen till the anti-Christ stands in the Temple in Israel declaring himself to be God. (
2 Thes. 2:4) That’s the event Jesus warned Israel to look for as the Great Tribulation’s opening salvo. He called it “The Abomination of Desolation” in
Matt. 24:15-21. Daniel 9:27 indicates it will happen in the middle of the last seven year period, which scholars call Daniel’s 70th Week
. But the Abomination can’t happen until there’s a Temple. There hasn’t been a Temple in Israel since 70AD and there won’t be one until the Jews officially decide they need one. They won’t need one until God reinstates their Old Covenant relationship because the Temple’s only purpose is to worship Him according to Old Covenant requirements. This will signal the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. The 70th Week can’t begin until the Battle of
Ezekiel 38-39 is won because God will use that battle to awaken Israel and reinstate His covenant with them. In
Romans 11:25 Paul said Israel has been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in, a reference to the rapture of the Church, after which Israel will be saved. That means the rapture has to happen before the Battle of
Ezekiel 38.
So far when we put the Sequence of Major Events in its proper order, it looks like this:
The Rapture of the Church,
The Battle of Ezekiel 38,
Daniel’s 70th week begins,
The Great Tribulation,
The 2nd Coming,
The Millennium,
Eternity.
To those who read Scripture as it’s written, only two of the events in this sequence are subject to debate as to timing. These are the Rapture of the Church and the Battle of
Ezekiel 38, the first two on our list. They’re the ones I said are less obvious.
So lets find out why they have to be where I’ve placed them in the sequence. Maintaining our back schedule mentality, we’ll begin with Ezekiel’s battle and work back to the Rapture.
“And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward.
Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore. And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.” (
Ezek 39:21-22, 28-29)
The Lord has declared in no uncertain terms that He’s going to use Ezekiel’s battle to spiritually awaken His people and call them to Israel from all over the world. This will result in the reinstatement of their Old Covenant relationship, reviving Daniel’s long dormant “70-Weeks” prophecy for its final seven years and requiring that a Temple be constructed. Without one there’s no way for them to keep His covenant.
This was proven once before in history during the Babylonian captivity. When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the 1st Temple, Israel ceased to exist. But as soon as Cyrus the Persian defeated Babylon and freed the Jews, they returned to Israel and began building a Temple before they did anything else. Without a Temple there’s no sacrifice for sin, and without that sacrifice, Jews cannot approach God.
Both the Old and New Testaments refer to a Temple in Israel at the End of the Age. The only reason for a Temple is to perform Old Covenant ordinances. But building one today would cause such an uproar that no one in his right mind would consider it.
Only a unified demand from the people of Israel accompanied by quiet acceptance from their Moslem neighbors would make the construction of a Temple even thinkable. Sound impossible? Ezekiel’s battle results in both a Jewish nation re-awakened to the presence of God in their national life and an utterly defeated Moslem attack force in no position to resist. The perfect conditions will finally exist to start building. For these reasons, Ezekiel’s battle has to take place on the threshold of Daniel’s 70th week. Now why does the Rapture of the Church have to precede Ezekiel’s battle?
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (
Romans 11:25)
According to
Ezek. 37:7-10, Israel would be reborn first in unbelief. Paul said they’ll remain partially estranged from God until the gentile Church reaches its full complement (predetermined number) and arrives at its destination. (The Greek word translated “fullness” in
Romans 11:25 was a nautical term often used to describe the full complement of crew and cargo necessary to accomplish a ship’s mission. The ship couldn’t sail till those requirements were met. The one translated “come in” means to arrive at a designated place.)
Then the veil will be pulled back as God reveals Himself to them again. As we saw above, He will use Ezekiel’s battle to begin this by renewing the Old Covenant with them, later transitioning Israel from the Old Covenant to the New toward the end of the Great Tribulation (
Zech 12:10). Remember, if they didn’t go back to the Old covenant first, they wouldn’t need a Temple. He’s picking them up where they left off.
After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’ (
Acts 15:13-18)
It was about 20 years after the cross. The controversy of the day was whether Gentiles had to become Jews before they could become Christians. And if not, what would become of Israel? In effect, the Lord’s brother James explained to the Apostles and others present at the Council of Jerusalem that Israel was being temporarily set aside while God focused on the Church. After He had taken this “people for His name” (Christians) from among the Gentiles he would return and rebuild His Temple. The Greek words translated taken means to carry something away or remove it from its place, so the passage implies that He would take the Church somewhere and then come back to rebuild the Temple, restore Israel, and give what’s left of mankind one final chance to seek Him.
These three Bible prophecies make it clear that as the End of the Age approaches, God will begin preparing Israel to be His once more. But He won’t be exclusively focused on them until He has finished building the Church and has taken us to our appointed place. And where is that?
In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (
John 14:2-3) (He didn’t promise to come back to be with us here where we are, but to take us there, where He is.) After that He would see to Israel’s reawakening and the construction of their Temple.
Throughout Scripture, the Lord seems to be involved with either Israel or the Church, but never both at the same time. James bears this out in his pronouncement regarding the Church in
Acts 15. All the leaders of the early church now knew that once God had accomplished His goals with the church, He would turn again to Israel, and that would signal the end of the Church Age.
There are two critical points to remember here. The first is that the Church didn’t end the Age of Law, but only interrupted it 7 years short of its scheduled completion. Those seven years, called the 70th Week of Daniel, have to be fulfilled to complete the Old Covenant. And the second is that the Old and New covenants, as practiced in Israel and the Church, are theologically incompatible, and therefore the two can only be on Earth at the same time while Israel is out of covenant. For Israel to return to the Lord, the Church has to be gone.
For this reason, the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and the reunification of Jerusalem in 1967 are seen as the most important signs of all that the End of the Age is upon us.
Also, there are two events we haven’t put into the sequence yet, and that’s because they aren’t easy to locate there. These are the battles of
Psalm 83 and
Isaiah 17. When Israel wins these two battles all their next door enemies will be defeated and they’ll enter into a brief period of peace that sets the stage for Ezekiel’s Battle (
Ezekiel 38:11). They’re called battles instead of wars which means they’ll be of short duration and can happen within a fairly short span of time. They can come either before or after the Rapture but do have to happen before the Battle of
Ezekiel 38 takes place.
Retrobyter said:
You are right about there being three categories of people in the Sheep/Goats trial; however, the thing most people miss is that these are PEOPLES, NATIONS, KINGDOMS, not individuals! This is not a judgment on individuals; this is a trial on NATIONS and how they AS A PEOPLE treated His brothers!
Another thing that messes people up about this judgment is that they somehow think that Yeshua` will begin His Kingdom reign already over the entire earth! That is NOT how the Scriptures have His Kingdom begin:
1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
In this passage, Paul told us that there would be two stages to the Kingdom of God: The first stage is when the Messiah puts all of His enemies under His feet. The second stage is when He turns over the Kingdom to His Father, and His Father reigns over the Kingdom AFTER all judgment is complete.
We are told that the first stage takes a thousand years to complete - a Millennium - in Revelation 20. The second stage is forever and begins in Revelation 21.
So, given that His Kingdom is NOT all-inclusive (of the earth or of the world) at the beginning of the Messiah's reign, then there will be other nations upon the earth as the Messiah - then the King of Isra'el, haMelekh Yisra'el - GROWS His Kingdom! The earth, after all, is a very big place! And, He must reign, reign for a thousand years, as He subdues all of His enemies!
Scripture also tells us that His enemies can be subdued in different ways: Some can cowtow to Him and subordinate themselves to His rule willingly, but others will have to be conquered and will NOT submit to Him willingly! However, we are told that ALL will bow the knee to Him eventually!
A thousand years is a VERY long time! Think of how much has happened on earth over the last 1000 years: What was going on in civilization a thousand years ago? What was happening in 1013 A.D? Here are some of the things that Wikipedia says were happening then:
Now, think of all the advancements that science has made over that time period, all the wars that have been fought, all the disasters that have occurred, all the governmental changes that have been made during the last 1000 years!
We are NEVER told that this will be a "time of peace and prosperity" for the whole earth; we are only told that this will be a "time of peace and prosperity" for HIS KINGDOM! Outside of His Kingdom, life goes on as usual! However, those who had dealings with His people - both the Jews and Isra'elis and Gentile believers, as well - will be judged for how they treated them! Those who treated them well (the sheep nations) will be given the opportunity to inherit His Kingdom. Those who mistreated them (the goat nations) will be resigned to be judged at the end of the Millennium. HOWEVER, again these are judgments upon a PEOPLE, not on individuals! Separately, individuals can still make their own choices to leave those countries and divorce themselves from the general fate of their PEOPLE!
No, the first resurrection IS in Revelation 20:4-6! The second resurrection is in Revelation 20:11-15, particularly in verse 13:
Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
i started to explain my position when it occurred to me that if i showed how to understand end time prophesy that it will get more people to start questioning their own beliefs and see if they concur with the word. the reason for this is non-believers are wondering if the end is near.
What is surprising is how little most Christians actually know about prophecy, especially since by some accounts it comprises nearly 40% of the Bible’s content, more than any other topic.
With few exceptions seminaries don’t teach it, so preachers don’t preach it. And therefore Christians don’t learn it. In all my years as a denominational Christian, I never once heard a message explaining the importance of prophecy to a believer’s walk with the Lord. And yet the Bible devotes more space to End Times Prophecy than it does to all the teachings of Jesus.
When Christians are asked why they don’t study prophecy more seriously the most common reasons given are 1) because it scares them, and 2) because it confuses them. Both responses are borne out of a lack of understanding. For the believer, prophecy is neither scary nor confusing but the key to understanding God’s plan for man.
i just want everyone concerned to be able to make their own well informed choices about prophesy.
God bless