Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[Joshua David]

Trekson,

The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.

So if the church is purified, by going through the Tribulation, are the Christians who died before the tribulation less pure than the Christians who go through the tribulation?

Joshua David

 

[tgwprophet]

Hi David... Let me understand this... according to your understand one purification is not as valid as another? Can I purify Gold my fire for say a kings crown - then at a later date puriify more gold by fire - say for another king's crown and one gold is not as pure as another? The first being more pure? or the latter being more pure? Then purify more gold, again and agian and never achieve the purification of the first batch? Personally I think this can be done.

 

[Joshua David]

Terry,

This is what I don't understand.... Some people who believe in a Post-Tribulational rapture believe that the church must go through the Tribulation in order to be purified and I am having trouble understanding why. I do not believe this, because I believe in a pretribulational rapture, but I am trying to understand this issue on why they believe that this seven year purification is needed.

Let me try to explain where I am coming from. I see the entire church as one unit, one group, one 'body'. This body consists of everyone who has truly been saved from the people in the upper room, to the last person saved before the rapture. I see it as either one of three possibilities are correct. 1) There is something that separates the 'tribulation' Christians, from the Christians that died before the tribulation, and this difference needs to be purified in the tribulation to make it equal to the rest of the church. 2) The 'Tribulation Christians' are basically the same as the Christians who died before the Tribulation, and therefore, if they require purification, then so does the rest of the church, and the non-tribulational Christians will arrive at the rapture in a less pure state. or 3) The church does not need any additional purification in the first place.

Now obviously I believe in option number 3, but I was curious as to what a person, who saw the need for the church to go through the tribulation, thought about option 1 or option 2. or is there another option that I am not seeing?

Now don't get me wrong... I do believe that the two main functions of the Tribulation is purification, and punishment. I see three different groups on the earth during the tribulation. One, the gentiles that missed getting into the church before the rapture; two, Israel, and three, the unbelievers. I believe that some of the gentiles that are here during the tribulation could very well be people who considered themselves 'Christians' but who never really gave their heart to God. They never accepted Jesus' authority over their life, and so have to atone for that. The Jews will be in an almost identical situation, in that they never accepted Jesus as their messiah.( Any Jews who had already accepted Jesus as their messiah, would have been in the church and would have gone in the rapture before the tribulation started.) And as far as the unbelievers go, there is no purification, only punishment.

So while I am not disputing the fact that there will be a purification during the tribulation, I don't see how this purification affects the church.

Does that help?

Joshua David

 

[tgwprophet]

Purpose of the " rapture " is protection for those that are unable to deny the Mark of the Beast. All who take the Beast's Mark go with the Beast. Those that are persecuted even unto death, but do not take the Beast's Mark, be they Christians... do not go with the Beast. What about people that cannot even provide for them selves... too weak, too old, in prison, deseased yet they are Christians - they need an escape... welsome to the rapture.

For those who believe there is no rapture.... what will befall these Born again and Saved Christians?

 

[Joshua David]

Terry,

What scriptures led you to your conclusions?

Joshua David

 

[Pharmboy]

Why shouldnt the Church go through the tribulation? How will it be any worse than times past (and what is owed to us that wasnt owed to them)? Read Fox's Book of Martyrs or R Wurmbrands book "Tortured for Christ". Unless I am mistaken the tribulation is God's judgment on the nations in the manner of the judgment He passed on His own people, just with different outcomes. God will give us strength for He is our portion. Rapture teaching is relatively new to Christian theology and it is shameful/cowardly in my opinion. The scriptures people cite to teach it are much better suited for His second coming, which is sound theology dating back to BEFORE there were even Christians (the second coming of Messiah comes from second Temple Judaism BC).

 

[Joshua David]

Why shouldnt the Church go through the tribulation? How will it be any worse than times past (and what is owed to us that wasnt owed to them)? Read Fox's Book of Martyrs or R Wurmbrands book "Tortured for Christ". Unless I am mistaken the tribulation is God's judgment on the nations in the manner of the judgment He passed on His own people, just with different outcomes. God will give us strength for He is our portion. Rapture teaching is relatively new to Christian theology and it is shameful/cowardly in my opinion. The scriptures people cite to teach it are much better suited for His second coming, which is sound theology dating back to BEFORE there were even Christians (the second coming of Messiah comes from second Temple Judaism BC).

Pharmboy,

Just because I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, it doesn't make me shameful, nor does it make me a coward. No more than believing that you will go through the tribulation makes you masochistic. Wait, let me change that since I know that you are going to come on and say, I didn't say that... So let me change what I said. I could say that believing that you will go through the tribulation is a masochistic theology! There that sounds much better doesn't it? But to be honest, this is what you said, because you are implying that only a coward would believe a cowardly doctrine. Because be honest, how can a doctrine, which is really just an idea that someone has, how can an idea be cowardly? Does the idea feel emotions? Can an idea feel fear or does a fearful person have an idea? Can an idea feel shame? No it is just an idea. So when you say that an idea is cowardly, what you are really saying is that the reason that people believe a pretribulation doctrine is because they are really cowardly or should feel shameful.

The truth is having a belief in a post tribulation rapture is no more masochistic, than having a belief is a pretribulation rapture is shameful or cowardly. I do not believe that I am immune to the possibility of being persecuted, tortured, or even having to give my life for Christ. As you have pointed out, Fox's Book of Martyrs, as well as the book Jesus Freaks by DC Talk, are filled with stories of people giving their life for Christ, and the Tribulation hasn't even started yet. The story of the girl who was killed in the Columbine shootings when she was asked if she believed in Jesus is another example.

The truth is, I believe the pretribulation rapture because when I consider all the scriptures in total to the best of my ability, this is the position that answers the most questions for me, and makes the most sense. If my study led me to the conclusion that the Post tribulation rapture was correct I would be one of it ardent defenders. I don't form my theology from what is the easiest to believe, because if that was the case, I would believe in universalism, or at the very least annihilationism. I have had close friends and even family members who have died apart from God. And it would be so easy for me to comfort myself with the belief that one day, they would get a chance to make it to Heaven, or barring that, after they have suffered enough, God would end their suffering by completely destroying them. That would be easy, but it would not be correct I believe the doctrine of Eternal Torment because that is what I believe the scriptures teach. I believe in the pretribulation rapture for the same reason, because I believe that is what the scripture teaches.

So let's concentrate on how the scriptures fit all together to discuss either a post tribulation rapture or a pre-tribulation rapture, and leave our personal opinions about why a person believes this way or that way out of the conversation.


Joshua David

 

[ENOCH2010]

The fear I have with the pre-trib doctrine is when those that believe so adamantly and defend it upon over whelming evidence to the contrary,will be so disappointed when they realize they are smack dab in the middle of tribulations and they are still here,will turn on their preachers and eventually turn from the faith,that we will so need to get through that time. All my family are staunch supporters of the pre-trib doctrine,they see me as the "black sheep" of the family for not giving up the old gospel that was taught before the pre-trib was such a fad.

 

[Pharmboy]

Frankly I dont believe there is any rapture at all except through death (and after that what more can be done to us) and resurrection. I believe that the Bible teaches that the Church will be "overcome" on this earth and then the wrath of God will fall (on the nations) when there is no church left to prevent it (through prayer and supplication). But the tribulation begins (began a long time ago) with God correcting His own, with like punishments (that have a much different outcome). The difference between trumpets and bowls. Death is a seive through which we are all shaken. Some come out the other side, some dont.

 

[Joshua David]

Enoch,

I can understand why you would feel this way. I really do. But also keep in mind that we shouldn't be totally relying on our preacher, sunday school teachers, or anybody else to teach us what the bible says, we should be studying the bible for ourselves. If I am wrong about the timing of the rapture, then I have no one to blame, and would not blame anybody else except myself. But listen to me, my faith is not grounded in the pretribulation rapture, my faith is grounded in the sacrificial atonement that Jesus provided on the cross. When all else fails me, this is what I cling to. And if I am wrong in my understanding of the scripture, then I am wrong in my understanding of the scripture. It wouldn't be the first time, and I am sure it won't be the last. You see, I realize that I am fallible, that I make mistakes. If I am wrong about something then that just encourages me to study even harder. I can tell you that should I be wrong about my interpretation of the timing of the Rapture, while I would be disappointed in myself, It would not cause me to walk away from the faith, because in the end I realize that it is my interpretation, and like I said before, I can and do make mistakes. I may have been wrong about the timing of the rapture, but I know that Jesus is definitely coming back.

But getting back to what you said, I have yet to find this 'overwhelming' evidence that you speak of. And trust me, I have looked. Let me try to explain what I am talking about like this. Think about a court case. To win a court case, you need to do two things. One is you need to present a strong case which is relatively easy to do, and two, you need to overcome objections to your case. For instance, if you are a defense attorney, and your present your case that your client was at a friends house on the night the crime was committed, you can even have evidence to substantiate your interpretation of the events on the night in question. Now the prosecutor presents evidence that your clients blood DNA was found at the crime scene. This is an objection. You have to show that either 1) the prosecutors evidence is wrong by showing that the DNA actually belongs to someone else, or more likely 2) show how this new evidence is true, but still fits into your case. Maybe your client got cut on her hand at the party at the neighbors house and some of the blood ended up on the real killer's shoes.

My point is I have seen some very strong cases presented for a post tribulation rapture. In fact Hammerstone did a good job of presented a very good case on this very site. But that is only half of the evidence, and quite frankly, it is the easy half. I have also seen some very solid cases presented that support a pre-trib rapture of the church, and a few that support a mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture of the church.

The reason that I have yet to find overwhelming evidence, and that when I start to challenge someone on their interpretation, most of time they shut down. They won't even consider the remote possibility that they even have an interpretation. They say, well I listen to the Holy Spirit, and this is what the Holy Spirit told me, so if you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with God. Which is personally insulting, because it is implying that I don't listen to the Holy Spirit. I can definitely tell you that there have been some extremely spirit-filled preachers that teach the pre-trib rapture.

Then if I am lucky, the conversation degenerates into, "Well I am right, and you are wrong.",Which pretty much equates to a defense lawyer entire case of them standing up and saying, "My client didn't do it." If I am not so lucky, it degenerates into them questioning my love of God, questioning my salvation, informing me that I am serving Satan, that I am following the doctrines of devils, that I just want to have my ears tickled, and so on and so forth. Which equates to the defense lawyer getting up and saying, "My client didn't do it, and if you convict her, you hate women, and you don't know anything about the law, and you are stupid." The lawyer may technically be correct, but if that was all they did, they would lose the case.

So is anybody up to having a respectful, and yet extremely deep debate on the timing of the rapture and let's see if I can find some of that overwhelming evidence?


Joshua David

 

[ENOCH2010]

Exhibit #1 The first resurrection is defined in Rev 20. establishing who will be included in said resurrection, along with the timing of when the first resurrection happens.
It happens at the second coming of the Lord, just prior the 1000 year reign. All who have died in the Lord up until that time will be resurrected and given a new immortal body.
I present to the court that if the rapture is to happen before the first resurrection, the Holy Spirit would have had John add the needed 3rd resurrection to the book.
As only 2 mass resurrections ( of a lot of bodies ) occur in the future,the first for those of the Lord, and the second for the damned and the ones that except the Lord during the 1000 year reign.

My question for this witness is Where and when is the resurrection that happens at the same time as the rapture written about in the Bible?

 

[Brothertom]

....So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.; Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple."

To "Come Out" , you had to go in. We are all going into the Great Tribulation...............................................................

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb.

This multitude Came out of the Great Tribulation; for it is the only time that the Anti-Christ, the Beast rules. The reason is to Overcome by faith, no matter the cost; To Prove who you love; your life or Jesus'..................................

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.".................................................

We will not fly away from trouble, but as Righteous Job endured, so must we. PREPARE YOUR HEARTS.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Joshua, Your Question: "So if the church is purified, by going through the Tribulation, are the Christians who died before the tribulation less pure than the Christians who go through the tribulation?"

Let me first offer some verses:

Dan. 12:10 - "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

1Co. 3:13-15 - "...and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Rev. 3:18 - "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment..."

To directly answer your question, in some cases, maybe. What I get out of this is I believe the latter day church will have an even greater responsibility to the world than the first generation did. I believe they were given a "special" anointing and I believe the church that goes through the great trib will as well. As the body of Christ on earth during those horrendous times we, as a whole, will need to be purer in our walk, then generations before as our opportunity for witness will be much greater. As stated in the OP, we, the last generation church will be the last chance this world will ever have to hear the gospel before billions end up spending eternity in hell. With such a grave responsibility on our shoulders, don't you think it logical that a greater purification be necessary?

We're not purified fist and then enter the great trib. It is within the "fire" of the great trib that we get purified as we endure. Another example could be with coal and diamonds. The greater the pressure, the more precious the gem that comes out.

On a side note, if you ever want to do a friendly debate on pre-wrath, I promise I won't "shut down". It's something I believe as a result of my own study. I used to be pre-trib, but imo, pre-wrath makes much more sense to me and fills all the gaps that pre and post trib have, imo.

 

[7angels]

i have some new things for thought to those who don't believe in the pretrib.

let us start with who are the 24 elders in revelations(rev 4:4)?
These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, a sign of royalty. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing the Greek “stephanos” crown, so they’re victors, overcomers. They’re called Elders, a title long associated with Christianity. So far we have a pretty strong case for them representing the Church. But there’s more.
Some try to explain the 24 thrones by saying that they belong to a group of ruling angels. But four Prophets saw the throne of God and recorded their experience. They were Isaiah (Isaiah 6), Ezekiel (Ezek. 1 & 10), Daniel (Dan. 7), and John (Rev. 4). In their descriptions, neither Isaiah nor Ezekiel made any mention of the 24 elders indicating that they weren’t present in Old Testament times. Daniel’s vision concerned the End Times and in Dan. 7:9 he mentioned multiple thrones but didn’t add any details to number or type of occupants. This is consistent with the fact that the Church was hidden to Old Testament prophets even in visions of the future. Only John made mention of the 24 Elders. And note that these elders are wearing the crowns of over comers. The Church won’t receive crowns until the Bema Seat judgment that takes place after the Rapture.

These elders represent every New Testament Christian. In Old Testament days there were 24 priests on duty at a time, but they represented all of the priests. Hence, these 24 probably represent all of the priests. The Bible teaches that every New Testament Christian is his own priest, so these 24 represent all of us who are saved. Praise God, all of His children are priests.

God bless

 

[Joshua David]

Ok guys, give me a sec to catch up and I will try to get to everyone, without having to write a wall of text..

Joshua David

Exhibit #1 The first resurrection is defined in Rev 20. establishing who will be included in said resurrection, along with the timing of when the first resurrection happens.
It happens at the second coming of the Lord, just prior the 1000 year reign. All who have died in the Lord up until that time will be resurrected and given a new immortal body.
I present to the court that if the rapture is to happen before the first resurrection, the Holy Spirit would have had John add the needed 3rd resurrection to the book.
As only 2 mass resurrections ( of a lot of bodies ) occur in the future,the first for those of the Lord, and the second for the damned and the ones that except the Lord during the 1000 year reign.

My question for this witness is Where and when is the resurrection that happens at the same time as the rapture written about in the Bible?

I will concede that there is a mass resurrection at the end of the Tribulation, and I will also concede that John identifies this event as the first resurrection. And let me state up front, this was the one verse, in all of my studying that gave me pause, so Enoch, I want you to know that I really do respect your scholarship, and my rebuttal on this issue my be the weakest part of my whole argument, but let's give it a try, and I would ask that even if I don't answer you to your satisfaction, I hope you would stay with the debate.

(rub hands together)

Before I get to your question, let me say that my answer is going to be long, but I will try to keep is as short as I can. Please bear with me as I seem to jump from topic to topic, because I promise you I will tie it all together.



Let me lay a foundation for my answer by first talking about the Church. and why I believe that while it is included in the First Resurrection, it is not an active participant, when this event takes place at the end of the tribulation.

The Church was an entity that was hinted at in the Old Testament, but was not revealed until the Day of Pentecost. For God to remain true, Jesus had to make a legitimate offer of the Kingdom of God to Israel, even though he knew that Israel was going to reject him as their messiah. Jesus' focus for his entire ministry, from the time he called his first disciple to the time that he rode into Jerusalem, was on the Nation of Israel. We see this time and time again in the scripture. Let me give you a couple of examples.

Jesus response to the gentile woman concerning her daughter...

Matt 15:22-28 22 A woman from Canaan lived near Tyre and Sidon. She came to him and cried out, “Lord! Son of David! Have mercy on me! A demon controls my daughter. She is suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not say a word. So his disciples came to him. They begged him, “Send her away. She keeps crying out after us.”
24 Jesus answered, “I was sent only to the people of Israel. They are like lost sheep.”
25 Then the woman fell to her knees in front of him. “Lord! Help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to their dogs.”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she said. “But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their owners’ table.”
28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! You will be given what you are asking for.” And her daughter was healed at that very moment.

Jesus was the bread, and the children in Jesus' response was the Children of Israel. I am sure that kids loved their dogs back in Jesus day as they do today. What Jesus was saying was not an insult, what he was saying was that although she was loved, his focus had to be on the children of Israel. The woman humbly put herself in that position to let Jesus know that she did not want to take anything away from the children of Isreal, but she recognized that Jesus was more than able to heal her daughter without the Children of Israel losing anything.

Mark says it this way...

Mark 7: 27 27 “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her. “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to their dogs.”

So the focus was entirely on the Children of Israel.

One more example...

Matt 10:5-8 5 Jesus sent these 12 out with the following orders. “Do not go among those who aren’t Jews,” he said. “Do not enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Instead, go to the people of Israel. They are like sheep that have become lost. 7 As you go, preach this message, ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’8 Heal those who are sick. Bring those who are dead back to life. Make those who have skin diseases ‘clean’ again. Drive out demons. You have received freely, so give freely.

When Jesus was talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, he was talking about the Millennium. This was the offer of the Kingdom. For three and a half years, Jesus devoted all of his time reaching out the to the Children of Israel.

This lasted until Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, thus fulfilling prophecy and proclaiming himself as their Messiah. This is the only time that he allowed his followers to worship him as the Messiah. And Israel did not receive him. It is at this time that Jesus focus started to turn to the Gentiles.

After his crucifixion, He even stayed around for 40 more days, giving Israel undeniable proof, that he was who he said he was. And still they rejected him. When Their rejection was complete, Jesus focus turned from the Children of Israel to the Gentile nations. From these nations, he would create His Church, otherwise known as His Bride. We have transitioned from the Age of the Law to the Age of Grace, or The time of the Gentiles. Within the Church, there is no Jew or Gentile, everyone who is saved, becomes a new creation ( which did not happen in the Old Testament )

The Church was born, or created, on the Day of Pentecost, It will be the most blessed people in all of human history. Not because we deserve it, we don't. It will be an example to the angels, to the Old Testament saints, to the Tribulation Saints, and to the Millennium Saints, of God's limitless grace.

Now getting back to your question..... (( I am sorry that took so long, but I wanted to lay a foundation ))

The majority of Israel is blinded. This blindness will remain until the time of the gentiles has come to an end...

Rom 11:25 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

So Israel can not have their blindness removed until all the Gentiles have come in! Come into what? Well what was Paul talking about in Romans 11? Paul was contrasting Israel with the Church! Read Rom. 11 if you don't believe me. So come into what? The only obvious answer is come into the Church.

Once the full number of people enter the church, then the rapture happens, and God's focus turns back to Israel. What event does God use to open the eyes of Israel? The battle of Ezek 38. After the battle, Israel will be turning back to God and looking for their Messiah, this is what sets up the conditions for the covenant of Death that they sign with the AC.

But none of this can take place until after the Church is gone, because as long as the church is here, Israel will still remain blinded in part.

Now what is the main thing that defines the "First Resurrection" the fact that they are not hurt by the second death. This applies even if you were resurrected before. Jesus is not resurrected at the "First Resurrection", and yet he will not be hurt by the second death, The saints that were resurrected at the same time when Jesus was resurrected will not be hurt by the second death, and yet they are not resurrected at the end of the tribulation, the two witnesses are not hurt by the second death, and yet they are not resurrected at the end of the tribulation, and Church will not be hurt by the second death, although they would have been raised before the tribulation even started. So who is raised at the end of the tribulation? Any Old testament Saint, that was not raised when Jesus was, and any believer that died during the Tribulation, which I believe will be a number so large that it dwarfs even the church. I believe that there will be more people saved during the seven year tribulation than has been saved from today all the way back to Adam. This is why this "First Resurrection" is named here, and not because it is the first time people are resurrected.

Now.... my turn... Pre-trib exhibit # 1. At the rapture, all believers are changed, and given their glorified bodies, who according to Jesus do not procreate. If the rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation, and only believers go into the Millennium Kingdom, where do the children some of whom are sinners in the Millennium come from?

Isaiah 65:20 20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Joshua David


Brother Tom,





Please prove that the multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation is the church. I do not doubt that there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and that the people that are saved will be a Great Multitude, I am just saying that the church is not a part of that multitude. Do you have any evidence that would support your position? I would be happy to discuss it with you. I just disagree with your interpretation.


Joshua David


Trekson,

To directly answer your question, in some cases, maybe. What I get out of this is I believe the latter day church will have an even greater responsibility to the world than the first generation did. I believe they were given a "special" anointing and I believe the church that goes through the great trib will as well. As the body of Christ on earth during those horrendous times we, as a whole, will need to be purer in our walk, then generations before as our opportunity for witness will be much greater. As stated in the OP, we, the last generation church will be the last chance this world will ever have to hear the gospel before billions end up spending eternity in hell. With such a grave responsibility on our shoulders, don't you think it logical that a greater purification be necessary?

First off, do you have any scriptures to support your belief that the latter day church will have a greater responsibility? We can certainly discuss them. As far as the church needing to be purer in our walk, I do not see that in the scriptures. In fact when the bible talks about the Tribulation, to me it is eerily silent. If the church was still here, why would the Lord need to send two special witnesses to Israel? And more importantly, if the church was still here, why would the Lord appoint Angels to preach the gospel?

Rev 14:6 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Does the Lord have angels preaching the gospel right now? No, that is what he has the church for. So why would He have an Angel preaching the gospel during the Tribulation? Because the church is not there.

Joshua David

 

[ENOCH2010]

Joshua David I applaud your effort to answer my question but like all pre-tribbers before you. They can't answer that question. I must add here and now that I used to be a pre-tribber also, but the answer to my question is what made me realize that the pre-trib doctrine had gaping holes in it, that the post-trib view filled. The answer to that question is --- The second coming and rapture are the same event and they happen just prior to 1000 year reign,as the Bible plainly states. The rapture isn't meant to be a way of escape for the church,the rapture is meant as a way of salvation for the nation of Israel.

Exhibit # 2
The pre-trib doctrine teaches the church is mysteriously whisk away to heaven prior to what they call the tribulation period.
The problem with this is, that isn't in the Bible.


To answer your question, the simple answer is a lot of people survive the end time events and remain on the Earth during the mill-reign. Who else would we be kings and priests for. They will be in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth during the mill-reign

 

[Joshua David]

Enoch,

The pre-trib doctrine has no gaping holes in it, I have shown you that there were resurrections prior to the one stated at the end of the Tribulation. The fact that you believe the Holy Spirit would have had John tell it, is your opinion, not a fact. He didn't mention the Old Testament Saints that were raised when Jesus was raised, he didn't mention the two witnesses, and yet he still calls it the 'First' resurrection. So it shouldn't surprise us that he doesn't mention the church's resurrection, since the church is not the focus of this resurrection.

The other thing to consider is that I don't consider the rapture as 'just' a resurrection, I consider it a glorification, a change. After all, you can't resurrect someone who is not dead, and what did Paul say about the rapture, "We will not all sleep ( be dead ) but we will all be changed." According to the Pre-trib view, every single person involved with the First resurrection, is resurrected. Everyone involved with the Rapture is Changed, while only some of them is resurrected.

Now I believe that I have shown you at least enough evidence to explain my view, and why I believe the way I believe based on my understanding of the scriptures. I understand if I have not convinced you. But I have tried to show you in the scripture where I see the rapture, which is before Israel's blindness is removed, and before the battle of Ezek 38, which happens before the Tribulation.

Now you are free to disagree with my conclusions, but if you do, please explain how my supporting scriptures are wrong instead of just saying that I didn't answer your question, because that doesn't leave a lot of room for debate. In other words, you disagree with my understanding of Rom 11 because this scripture ( whatever scripture you use ) says this .... ( the scripture ), Or you disagree with my interpretation of the God using the Battle of Ezek to turn Israel back to him. You get the idea.


And before we go on to your second Exhibit, you need to answer my first one, concerning the children in the millennium, because we all know a case isn't one or lost on one single point for either side.

Joshua David

 

[Trekson]

Hi 7angels, Your words: "They’re wearing the Greek “stephanos” crown, so they’re victors, overcomers."

That is only one possibility of what the "stephanos" crown represents. There are two more: As a sign of royalty and as a symbol of great honor, both possible with a ruling caste of angels.

Your words: "In their descriptions, neither Isaiah nor Ezekiel made any mention of the 24 elders indicating that they weren’t present in Old Testament times."

With all due respect, this is only conjecture. God only shows what He wants to show. It is entirely possible that the thrones were there and occupied but were withheld from the prophets as it wasn't their concern. Another point on this issue is the wording of these verses. The KJV, NKJV and one other are the only bibles to interpret the verses this way: Rev. 5:9 - "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

All the other versions, and there are several, read this way: (NIV) "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,
because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation;"

The use of the phrase "you purchased men", which imo is the correct interpretation, implies that the people (24 elders) that are saying this are "other" than men, which, imo, would make them angels.


Hi Joshua, The problem lies in how you' re defining the 70th week. Pre-wrath believes the great trib is a short term event within the context of the 70th week and is probably less than 2 yrs in duration (this is a guesstimate). The great trib will be over and the church raptured before the angels begin their ministry. In fact the timing of when they begin their ministry actually emphasizes a pre-wrath rapture, imo.

Hi Enoch, Your words: "The first resurrection is defined in Rev 20. establishing who will be included in said resurrection, along with the timing of when the first resurrection happens.
It happens at the second coming of the Lord, just prior the 1000 year reign. All who have died in the Lord up until that time will be resurrected and given a new immortal body."

Unlike Joshua, I won't concede there is a resurrection at the end of the 70th week because scripture DOES NOT say that there is.

Rev. 20:4-6 - " And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The ONLY thing these verses proclaim are they are of the first resurrection and they went through the great trib, which corresponds with pre-wrath theology. There is nothing in this verse that states specifically they were resurrected at the end of the 70th week and no, it's not even implied. The first resurrection began with Christ and those that came out of the graves with Him and these were the "firstfruits" of the first resurrection. (Imo, all OT saints were resurrected at this time but it was only given to a few to show themselves as verification for the nation of Israel. All latter day fruits will consist of the church, imo.) The resurrected church that will be resurrected at the 7th seal are just the "latter day" fruits of the continuing and concluding part of the first resurrection. Rev. 7:9 shows the arrival of the church in heaven where it states they came out of great trib, which if one believes in the consecutiveness of Rev. as I do, is before the trumpet and bowl judgments begin.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Joshua you almost made my case for me,you say the pre-trib view is the first resurrection,I totally agree.The thing I don;t agree with is the first resurrection happening prior to when the Bible plainly says it happens. I know what is next to, someone will try and convince me that the first resurrection happens over a period of thousands of years,the only problem with that is that's not in the Bible either,that's just their opinion.
For the first resurrection to include those that were beheaded for the witness of Christ during the end times,it has to happen at the second coming. Not before.


I see while I was posting Trekson ask your next question, I will answer him the same way as if it were you, with a question of my own.

Where is it written or for that matter even implied in the Bible that another resurrection of the magnitude that takes place with the rapture.

I just noticed Trekson ask my next question also, About the group that came out of great tribulation, who are they if not the church?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Enoch, Your words: "I know what is next to, someone will try and convince me that the first resurrection happens over a period of thousands of years,the only problem with that is that's not in the Bible either,that's just their opinion."

No, it's not just an opinion. If you were to do a study on how what the feast of "firstfruits" entails, it's called firstfruits for a reason. They brought the first of the single season of the harvest to be offered unto God. There is one harvest from the time of Christ until the rapture/resurrection.