Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[iamlamad]

Keep in mind that most of the people arguing with you were pretribbers at one point. Many of us once did recognize it as truth simply because it was the only thing we'd ever been taught. It was only later that we learned that what we had been taught was not biblical.

What really happened was, the enemy has pulled you away from the truth. God is very much pretrib, as you all will find out soon enough. You have thought, incorrectly that Matthew 24 was the rapture. You have not understood the author's intent of 2 thes. 2, you did not understand 1 Thes. 5, and you did not recognize that the church was raptured previous to Rev. 7. In fact, few pretribbers understand these scriptures; they just coast on what they have heard, blindly thinking that the rapture is Rev. 4:1. Few really study this out.

Have you read Rosenthal and Van Kampen? Both these men ruined their lives by failing to understand. They got hung up on the two times the signs in the sun and moon take place. they could only see ONE event, so tried to rewrite Revelation to fit only one event. The truth is, the signs in the sun and moon happen TWICE and both are shown in Joel; first as a sign for the coming of the Day (Rev.6) and then in chapter three as a warning of the coming of Jesus (Matthew 24).

It is the same way with His coming; HE is coming twice more; first to get His saints, and again WITH His saints. Failure to recognize these two more comings causes forcing square pegs into round holes, it just does not work. We need an end time scenario that fits ALL scripture. ONE coming will not do that. Two more comings are clearly shown in scritpure, just as two times the signs in the sun and moon are seen. If you will be honest, there is no real PROOF that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture; you just think it is. However, it simply does not fit Paul's rapture. Go back and mediate on 1 Thes 5 for a few weeks. Become intimate with it. Paul is telling us the SUDDENLY is the rapture; at the suddenly those in the light get raptured, but those in the darkness get the sudden destruction which is the start of the Day. This fits exactly with John, where He saw the church in heaven just before the DAY begins.

Can you be honest with scriptures? What is happening: ...the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

WHAT is this hurt, if it is NOT the start of the Day of the Lord? Old testament verses TELL US the day will destroy the earth. We then SEE that hurt beginning at the first trumpet. this is a judgment - from God. It is HURTING the earth.

Why then do you say the Day does not start until Jesus returns? What proof can you offer? There is much proof that the DAY begins with the first trumpet.

Lamad

 

[Joe Domingo]

AMEN!

Absolutely. As you have said, it was all I knew unto I knew better. Indeed it was through searching the scriptures of my own volition did God make plain the scriptures.

Amen

 

[Brothertom]

Then, Who? are these? These are the Redeemed; More than you than count.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. "

Where did they come out from? Evidently, the Word of God states that they were not raptured before the Great Tribulation; clearly. They went in; they came out.

 

[TWC]

What really happened was, the enemy has pulled you away from the truth. God is very much pretrib, as you all will find out soon enough. You have thought, incorrectly that Matthew 24 was the rapture. You have not understood the author's intent of 2 thes. 2, you did not understand 1 Thes. 5, and you did not recognize that the church was raptured previous to Rev. 7. In fact, few pretribbers understand these scriptures; they just coast on what they have heard, blindly thinking that the rapture is Rev. 4:1. Few really study this out.

The bottom line is that we are commanded to overcome, persevere, and endure... to the end. We must bring that extra oil with us. Why would an enemy encourage this?

Have you read Rosenthal and Van Kampen? Both these men ruined their lives by failing to understand. They got hung up on the two times the signs in the sun and moon take place. they could only see ONE event, so tried to rewrite Revelation to fit only one event. The truth is, the signs in the sun and moon happen TWICE and both are shown in Joel; first as a sign for the coming of the Day (Rev.6) and then in chapter three as a warning of the coming of Jesus (Matthew 24).

It is the same way with His coming; HE is coming twice more; first to get His saints, and again WITH His saints. Failure to recognize these two more comings causes forcing square pegs into round holes, it just does not work. We need an end time scenario that fits ALL scripture. ONE coming will not do that. Two more comings are clearly shown in scritpure, just as two times the signs in the sun and moon are seen. If you will be honest, there is no real PROOF that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture; you just think it is. However, it simply does not fit Paul's rapture. Go back and mediate on 1 Thes 5 for a few weeks. Become intimate with it. Paul is telling us the SUDDENLY is the rapture; at the suddenly those in the light get raptured, but those in the darkness get the sudden destruction which is the start of the Day. This fits exactly with John, where He saw the church in heaven just before the DAY begins.

The reason you think it doesn't fit is because there is false doctrine obstructing your vision. There are quite a few variances in the accounts of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. Does that mean He was crucified and resurrected multiple times?

 

[iamlamad]

Then, Who? are these? These are the Redeemed; More than you than count.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. "

Where did they come out from? Evidently, the Word of God states that they were not raptured before the Great Tribulation; clearly. They went in; they came out.

Sorry, that theory will not fly. If you understood John's chronology, he has not even started the 70th week yet, much less arrived at the midpoint when the days of GT begin. So, what is John's meaning?

The church IS in great tribulation now - in half of the world. So many are dying because they love JEsus. IT will certainly come to the US - in fact, already did: the girl in Columbine school was shot because she was a Christian. HOW can "tribulation" be any greater if you are killed? You cannot be killed twice.

If you remember, just those two words, "great tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus describing those days: HE added more to describe the days following the abomination.

So just because you see these two words together does NOT mean John is talking about the days following the abomination.

Homework: find the other time John used these two words together.

Bottom line? The Bride of Christ is REMOVED before the 70th week begins. But at that time, there will be tribulation around the world. Some of it will be great, for people will be being put to death for their testimony.

Lamad

The bottom line is that we are commanded to overcome, persevere, and endure... to the end. We must bring that extra oil with us. Why would an enemy encourage this?


The reason you think it doesn't fit is because there is false doctrine obstructing your vision. There are quite a few variances in the accounts of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. Does that mean He was crucified and resurrected multiple times?

There is a HUGE difference between signs in the sun and moon, and the death of Christ. Is this the best you've got? Perhaps you can explain how the rapture is a gathering from heaven. Perhaps you can explain how posttribbers will be at the marriage supper - - but good luck with that, for no one has yet done it. Bottom line: posttrib rapture is a myth, based on imagining certain verses are talking about Paul's gathering. There IS a gathering found in Rev. 19, where Jesus is decending: why not claim that as the rapture? It makes about as much sense.

Lamad

 

[TWC]

Homework: find the other time John used these two words together.

Find the other usage of apostasia. I thought that wasn't enough to establish a law of meanings.

Bottom line? The Bride of Christ is REMOVED before the 70th week begins.

Remember when you said that it's Daniel's 70 weeks and not Paul's 70 weeks? Where does DANIEL mention such a removal?

There is a HUGE difference between signs in the sun and moon, and the death of Christ.

Your basis for claiming the events happen twice is because they are mentioned multiple times with slight variances. There are also several different accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and these also have variances. Yet, there is no question from you that the crucifixion and resurrection only happened once each.

Perhaps you can explain how the rapture is a gathering from heaven.

Read Mark 13.

Perhaps you can explain how posttribbers will be at the marriage supper - - but good luck with that, for no one has yet done it. There IS a gathering found in Rev. 19, where Jesus is decending: why not claim that as the rapture?

There IS a gathering found in Rev. 19, where Jesus is decending: why not claim that as the rapture?

When do you see the marriage supper occurring? Revelation 19 says that it occurs after Babylon has fallen and God has avenged on her the blood of His servants, something that had yet to happen as of the fifth seal. Remember, they were waiting on the full number of their fellow servants to be killed as they had been.

 

[iamlamad]

Find the other usage of apostasia. I thought that wasn't enough to establish a law of meanings.

Touche! Good one! But in this case, it is two very simple words with context that is simple also. There was a woman in the church way back then, for the first readers, that was a prostitute and was with men that were sleeping around. God warned them to STOP or He would cast them into "great tribulation." So here we are 1900 years later - do we think He meant to keep that generation alive for 1900+ year to wait for THE "great tribulation - or did He mean that HE can created "great tribulation" any time He chooses to? Also note, there is a difference between "great tribulation" and "great tribulation greater than any time past or future."

Remember when you said that it's Daniel's 70 weeks and not Paul's 70 weeks? Where does DANIEL mention such a removal?

Daniel's 70th week shows is it is for JEWS, not GENTILES. (Paul was sent to the Gentiles). Daniel did mention that he would stand in his lot at the right time - that is resurrection. But no rapture of the church in Daniel! We are in a different dispensation - that will END at Paul's rapture. Then, God will finished up the age of the Jews and the Old Covenant with the final week of years.

Your basis for claiming the events happen twice is because they are mentioned multiple times with slight variances. There are also several different accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and these also have variances. Yet, there is no question from you that the crucifixion and resurrection only happened once each.

YEs, it is certain that Jesus died ONLY ONCE. But if you notice, there are eclipses of the sun and moon frequently, some more unusual than others. But it is not only that they (these signs in the sun and moon) are different, it is that the CONTEXT is different, showing that these signs happen at different times. One could not say that with the four gospels and Jesus' death. If you examine Joel 2 for example, it is the sign for the Day of the Lord, while the context of the signs in Joel 3 is the coming of the Lord. I know these two events to be 7 plus years apart. (Apparently there are some that do not know this - yet). The only conclusion I can come to is that these signs are seen twice. Believing this allows me to leave the book of Revelation in the order it is written in. It makes perfect sense in the order written, if the signs are seen twice and Jesus returns TWICE MORE, once to get His saints Rev. 7) and again WITH His saints (Rev. 19). I don't think we have the right to rearrange the book.

Read Mark 13.


When do you see the marriage supper occurring? Revelation 19 says that it occurs after Babylon has fallen and God has avenged on her the blood of His servants, something that had yet to happen as of the fifth seal. Remember, they were waiting on the full number of their fellow servants to be killed as they had been.

Wow. Why would you jump from chapter 19 to chapter 6? Are you rearranging? You are missing something important: the 5th seal are the CHURCH AGE martyrs: for John has not yet even arrived at the Day or the 70th week in his narrative. This seal was broken about 32 AD. Stephen was one of the first in this group. If you notice, they are told they must wait for the last one to be killed as THEY WERE. this is not speaking of the manner of death, for all were different - no, this is saying, killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. So what will make the final church age martyr? Of course, the END of the church age. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture of the church. Now, what does John write of next, after the 5th seal? Of course, the 6th seal. The rapture of the church that ends the church age comes as the first event at the 6th seal, or it is the event that triggers the 6th seal. So John is in perfect order. So what happens in chapters 16-18 have nothing to do with seal #5. That event is over by that time. They get their revenge during the entire 70th week and Day of the Lord. Please note, "the Day of His wrath has come."
In Mark 13 the supper would come just before verse 26. In Rev. the marriage comes just before Jesus gets on the white horse to descend.

Do you notice that if one is wrong in any part of this belief, nothing makes sense as it is written, and people feel the need to rearrange Revelation. As I have said over and over, ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong. Lamad

 

[veteran]

Keep in mind that most of the people arguing with you were pretribbers at one point. Many of us once did recognize it as truth simply because it was the only thing we'd ever been taught. It was only later that we learned that what we had been taught was not biblical.

I must admit that I never was a believer of that doctrine, I thank The Father and His Son. Mild forms of Preterist doctrines was probably the worst thing I was exposed to in the Church I grew up in.

 

[TWC]

Daniel's 70th week shows is it is for JEWS, not GENTILES. (Paul was sent to the Gentiles). Daniel did mention that he would stand in his lot at the right time - that is resurrection. But no rapture of the church in Daniel! We are in a different dispensation - that will END at Paul's rapture. Then, God will finished up the age of the Jews and the Old Covenant with the final week of years.

So, your dispensationalist doctrine is correct because dispensationalism says so? That's a nice bit of circular reasoning you've got there.

YEs, it is certain that Jesus died ONLY ONCE. But if you notice, there are eclipses of the sun and moon frequently, some more unusual than others. But it is not only that they (these signs in the sun and moon) are different, it is that the CONTEXT is different, showing that these signs happen at different times. One could not say that with the four gospels and Jesus' death. If you examine Joel 2 for example, it is the sign for the Day of the Lord, while the context of the signs in Joel 3 is the coming of the Lord. I know these two events to be 7 plus years apart. (Apparently there are some that do not know this - yet). The only conclusion I can come to is that these signs are seen twice. Believing this allows me to leave the book of Revelation in the order it is written in. It makes perfect sense in the order written, if the signs are seen twice and Jesus returns TWICE MORE, once to get His saints Rev. 7) and again WITH His saints (Rev. 19). I don't think we have the right to rearrange the book.

It's not rearranging when the book wasn't in order to begin with.

 

[iamlamad]

What do you mean by "REVELATION" ... ? By what method does this come by? i.e. Thought injected in the mind or what?

Some of the time by words; I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit or of Jesus. They are different. Sometimes God just directly answers a question about some verse. However, most of the time, He asks me questions when I ask Him. His questions are always to lead me to the right answer. For example, I was bugging God about John weeping - and weeping much. (Chapters 4 & 5)

I got hung up on John weeping. I can't explain it: it was just the Holy Spirit. I spent days on that one sentence, trying to figure out why it was even there. After bugging God about it many times, He spoke and said "It shows timing." for a long while, I wondered how those three words were much of a help. So I just switched and started telling God that I could not see timing anywhere there!

Then He finally spoke again and said "it shows the movement of time." Of course, I could not see the movement of time either. Finally He took pity on me and asked me three questions. He said, if I could not answer these three questions correctly, I would never understand this passage of scripture.

His first question to me was this: "why was I NOT in the throne room, at the right hand of the Father, when John saw this vision? There are many scriptures that said that is where I went."

I was acquainted with some of these scriptures, and I remembered that Stephen saw Him there. So even though the Holy Spirit brought this question to me, I could not answer it: why did John NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the Father when he first saw into the throne room?

Next, He asked me: "Why was 'no man found' worthy to break the scrolls in the search John watched to completion? I had been raised for many years by that time."

Again I had no answer. I believe John watched this vision in 95 AD. Jesus had been in heaven for years! Why was He not found immediately? (The answer relates to the first question.) We know that the search was completed from the way John wrote. He said, "No man was found." (he would not have said that if the search had not been completed.) So question number two: why was no man found? I had no answer.

The third question He asked: "Why was the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, in chapter 4, when I said that as soon as I ascended I would send Him down?"

I could not answer this question either. So I had three questions from John's vision of the throne room. But I did not have answers!!! I had to keep bugging God about this until He brought wisdom, because I was just not smart enough to figure it out. After about a month of me bugging Him, He sent me to study chapter 12. There I found the answer I needed to understand this vision.

At other times, I suddenly just "KNOW" something I did not know the instant before. I call that a "download."

This was a very special time in my life. Only a few other times has God answered questions about scripture as he did for those few months. they were very precious to me. Please understand, this time came after months of meditation on these scriptures. I came with an empty slate - no preconceived theories. And I spend much time praying in the Spirit. I had learned many years previous that this was the key to activating the Holy Spirit as the teacher: Praying in the Spirit and reading and mediating on scriptures day after day. If you remember, Paul said, "I pray in tongues more than you all" and Paul had more revelation knowledge that all the rest. These two things are not a coincidence.

Many people challenged Paul about His revelations. Many people challenge me also. I don't know much, but what He has taught me I know very well.

Did you ever notice, on one thread, there may be ten different opinions, all different. Logic tells us they cannot all be right. Yet each writer is SURE they are right, and are Holy Spirit taught. Again, Logic tells us the Holy Spirit will not teach ten people ten different theories about one scripture. The truth is, perhaps NONE of the ten have indeed heard from the Holy Spirit. They just thought they did. Most simply do not know how to get the Holy Spirit to teach them. What can the average reader do? they MUST study the scriptures for themselves. I really feel sorry for some of the readers: if they come to some of these threads to learn, they go away far more confused than they came.

Lamad

JB - Lamad claims that God speaks to him audibly and he gets very offended when people don't accept his posts as the absolute truth. For example, he has referred to us as 5th graders, incapable of understanding what he has written or what is written in the Bible.

My point of 5th graders is that they read with NO PRECONCEPTIONS. Few adults have learned how to do this. I am convinced, many times, if we let a child read one of these scriptures we disagree over, their theory would be the correct one. For example, would ANY beginning read say that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture? I doubt if ANY would. They would say it was JOHN begin caught up to heaven. Yet we have people with doctorate degrees that insist that is where the rapture is. they are simply mistaken.

By the way, I don't get offended. I get amused though at some of your answers! Lamad

Ok. So he actually hears voices??? I would imagine how he would be offended since he appears to place himself in the same league as Paul the Apostle. I've been called quite a few things but a 5 grader is new. I'll have to add it to my list of insults.

I wonder if Lamad can tell the difference between an imposter spirit and the HOLY SPIRIT. I wonder how he tests his spirits?

Here's a little test. Maybe he could reject the injection of thoughts and see whether he has sovereign control over his mind. lets see if he experiences a sense of condemnation, dread or paralysis of the mind. Of course this is going to take a lot of self-control in the mind. Also, he can see whether he can not only cut of a thought but establish one by his own volition & sustain it. He will need to do this for at least a few days so as to ascertain whether his mind is his own or not.(proof to self)

The signs and symptoms of demonic oppression of the mind is the inability to construct, maintain & cease a thought at will. Commonly the mind in the process of a "thought" will snap like a twig and the idea will flee. Blankness, passivity are all signs of demonic stronghold on the mind.

Commonly what I see as so-called revelation is no more than thought injection. It's not so much as their mind grasps a thought but rather the thought is what's controlling them- hence injection.

Anyway lets see what he says... .



Indeed, 'his sheep' do know who's speaking to them through the Holy spirit's (illumination) of his word. Yes, no other voice will they follow.

the truth is, if you are NOT hearing from God, you have a serious problem! Did the early church hear from God? We see case after case of this in the book of Acts. It is NORMAL to hear from God. He is our Father and we His children. What did Jesus say? "my sheep know my voice....." Well, DO YOU know his voice?

By the way, can you see Paul on the road to Damascus trying to discern of Jesus was a devil in disguise? You would have to use a lot in imagination to get that idea. Did Phillip question God when God told him to head out into the desert? did Philip question God when God told him to to to the Chariot? How about Peter on the roof when the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you.

If you really study the book of Acts you will find many of them heard from God. It is NOT unusual, NOT hearing from God should be unusual.

When God speaks, I can assure you, there is NO DOUBT who is speaking. He speaks to our SPIRIT from within. Devils cannot do that. they speak from the outside. Almost every time God has spoken to me, it is about the word of God - something written that I did not understand. Lamad

So, your dispensationalist doctrine is correct because dispensationalism says so? That's a nice bit of circular reasoning you've got there.


It's not rearranging when the book wasn't in order to begin with.

You will have to take that up with John when you see him. I am quite sure he will ask you WHY you rearranged his book!
If you feel there is a part that needs to be rearranged, let's see it and you explanation as to WHY it is not in the right order.

Lamad

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Thanks for replying Lamad.

Could you elaborate on this highlighted text below. Please go into as much explanation or elaboration as needed. In particularly, could you keep it pragmatic when you describe the function of the spirit to your spirit and how that translates to your understanding.

Also describe to me how you pragmatically 'pray in the spirit'




Quote: And I spend much time praying in the Spirit. I had learned many years previous that this was the key to activating the Holy Spirit as the teacher:

When God speaks, I can assure you, there is NO DOUBT who is speaking. He speaks to our SPIRIT from within.

 

[iamlamad]

Thanks for replying Lamad.

Could you elaborate on this highlighted text below. Please go into as much explanation or elaboration as needed. In particularly, could you keep it pragmatic when you describe the function of the spirit to your spirit and how that translates to your understanding.

Also describe to me how you pragmatically 'pray in the spirit'




Quote: And I spend much time praying in the Spirit. I had learned many years previous that this was the key to activating the Holy Spirit as the teacher:

When God speaks, I can assure you, there is NO DOUBT who is speaking. He speaks to our SPIRIT from within.

No lengthy elaboration is needed. Just read:

1 Cor 14
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Further explanation:

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....


WHERE does the utterance come from? It comes from the Holy Spirit. But He is in the human spirit and passes this "utterance" to the human spirit. When it is prayed out, it is the human spirit praying, but using the Holy Spirit's utterance.

Note: a prayer in the Spirit or in tongues is ALWAYS a prayer in His perfect will, for the Holy Spirit creates the utterance and attaches meaning to it. God the father understands the prayer in tongues and answers it as He does any other prayer in His will. But the prayer in tongues is ALWAYS His will, for it originates with the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 14
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding,

So WHERE did Paul do all this praying in tongues and in the Spirit? It was in his PERSONAL prayer life. Tongues are primarily for our personal prayer life. It is a good way to pray prayers guaranteed to be IN HIS WILL.

Finally, since the Holy Spirit is within, anyone who has received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit can pray in the Spirit at will.

I do as Paul suggested in verse 15: I spend time praying in the Spirit (where I don't understand but God does) and I spend time praying in English so I can understand it.

As a final note, please note, no one can obey Paul's verse 15 above UNLESS they have received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues, as happened time and again in the book of Acts. To many believers SKIP Acts 1 & 2, and try to live their live WITHOUT what Acts 1 & 2 promises.

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

No lengthy elaboration is needed. Just read:

1 Cor 14
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Further explanation:

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....


WHERE does the utterance come from? It comes from the Holy Spirit. But He is in the human spirit and passes this "utterance" to the human spirit. When it is prayed out, it is the human spirit praying, but using the Holy Spirit's utterance.

Note: a prayer in the Spirit or in tongues is ALWAYS a prayer in His perfect will, for the Holy Spirit creates the utterance and attaches meaning to it. God the father understands the prayer in tongues and answers it as He does any other prayer in His will. But the prayer in tongues is ALWAYS His will, for it originates with the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 14
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding,

So WHERE did Paul do all this praying in tongues and in the Spirit? It was in his PERSONAL prayer life. Tongues are primarily for our personal prayer life. It is a good way to pray prayers guaranteed to be IN HIS WILL.

Finally, since the Holy Spirit is within, anyone who has received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit can pray in the Spirit at will.

I do as Paul suggested in verse 15: I spend time praying in the Spirit (where I don't understand but God does) and I spend time praying in English so I can understand it.

As a final note, please note, no one can obey Paul's verse 15 above UNLESS they have received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues, as happened time and again in the book of Acts. To many believers SKIP Acts 1 & 2, and try to live their live WITHOUT what Acts 1 & 2 promises.

Lamad

Very well explained Lamad.

JB, don't you pray in tongues?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Very well explained Lamad.

JB, don't you pray in tongues?

Yep, I pray in english. I also groan in the spirit at times as I have no words, but that's about all.

Apparently i've not received the 'baptism of the spirit' at regeneration according to the theology of you two as I haven't recieved the "mighty baptism of the spirit". Apparently a "second work of grace", to which until recently in the history of the NT church wasn't exercised until now apart from when the church was being confirmed as written in acts..

But I do have the 'gift of teaching' and 'discernment of spirits' among those which were given. B)

No lengthy elaboration is needed. Just read:

1 Cor 14
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Further explanation:

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....


WHERE does the utterance come from? It comes from the Holy Spirit. But He is in the human spirit and passes this "utterance" to the human spirit. When it is prayed out, it is the human spirit praying, but using the Holy Spirit's utterance.

Note: a prayer in the Spirit or in tongues is ALWAYS a prayer in His perfect will, for the Holy Spirit creates the utterance and attaches meaning to it. God the father understands the prayer in tongues and answers it as He does any other prayer in His will. But the prayer in tongues is ALWAYS His will, for it originates with the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 14
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding,

So WHERE did Paul do all this praying in tongues and in the Spirit? It was in his PERSONAL prayer life. Tongues are primarily for our personal prayer life. It is a good way to pray prayers guaranteed to be IN HIS WILL.

Finally, since the Holy Spirit is within, anyone who has received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit can pray in the Spirit at will.

I do as Paul suggested in verse 15: I spend time praying in the Spirit (where I don't understand but God does) and I spend time praying in English so I can understand it.

As a final note, please note, no one can obey Paul's verse 15 above UNLESS they have received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues, as happened time and again in the book of Acts. To many believers SKIP Acts 1 & 2, and try to live their live WITHOUT what Acts 1 & 2 promises.

Lamad

Pay close attention to the full conclusion.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

 

[Trumpeter]

Yep, I pray in english. I also groan in the spirit at times as I have no words, but that's about all.

Apparently i've not received the 'baptism of the spirit' at regeneration according to the theology of you two as I haven't recieved the "mighty baptism of the spirit". Apparently a "second work of grace", to which until recently in the history of the NT church wasn't exercised until now apart from when the church was being confirmed as written in acts..

But I do have the 'gift of teaching' and 'discernment of spirits' among those which were given. B)


Pay close attention to the full conclusion.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Amen JB, as the Word says, we are to pray and sing in the spirit, but are also to pray and sing with the understanding.

These are the 2 types of praying and singing, so we are not to do the one exclusively to the exclusion of the other.

Ask for the gift and it shall be given.

Mat 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

God bless.

 

[iamlamad]

Amen JB, as the Word says, we are to pray and sing in the spirit, but are also to pray and sing with the understanding.

These are the 2 types of praying and singing, so we are not to do the one exclusively to the exclusion of the other.

Ask for the gift and it shall be given.

Mat 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

God bless.

Well said, Trumpeter. I was raised under John Wesley's teaching. He said there was a "second work of grace" and it came as a "crisis event" meaning it was instantaneous. However, John Wesley never received it. In stead he and his followers began teaching "sanctification" as if it was the second work of grace. He was wrong and they were wrong.

Acts 8
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

The great joy came from the New Birth, for it always brings great joy. But let's go on.

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

At this point, we can KNOW they were born again, for Philip baptized them. (This is the FIRST "work of grace: regeneration.) Remember, he would not baptize the Eunuch unless he was SURE the Eunuch was born again. So now they have been born again and water baptized. next, we are going to get a view of the THINKING of the leaders in Jerusalem...what were they thinking?

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,

WHY send Peter and John? Wasn't Philip doing a good job?

15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Many reading this assume this is speaking of salvation, but it is not, it is the SECOND WORK of GRACE by the Holy Spirit. We can clearly see the progression; they HEARD, they believed, (regeneration) they were baptized in water. (they got wet.)

Notice how careful the Holy Spirit was to note, the Holy Spirit had "fallen UPON," then. If you will do a study, the Holy Spirit is always careful to make the distinction of the Holy Spirit WITHIN (regeneration) and the Holy Spirit UPON (the baptism with the Holy Spirit) or being "filled" with the Holy Spirit. For the second work of grace it is always "ON" or "UPON."

TEST TIME, or POP QUIZ:

Paul said: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

Or "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

Question: could YOU ask another believer this question with your current belief system?

Lamad

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Amen JB, as the Word says, we are to pray and sing in the spirit, but are also to pray and sing with the understanding.

These are the 2 types of praying and singing, so we are not to do the one exclusively to the exclusion of the other.

Ask for the gift and it shall be given.

Mat 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

God bless.

I think you missed the force of what's being said. It's not that they are individual things at all(apart from pray and singing) rather they're one(synergized) and this is reinforced by the conjunction 'and'.

So lets back up a little bit and take a look at what Paul is getting at...



Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown(unlearnt) tongue(language) pray that he may interpret(understand/translate). For if I pray in an unknown tongue(language), my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

NOW: What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1Co 14:13-15

Conclusion: Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 1Co 14:16


Q: Can you or anyone who claims to pray with the spirit in another tongue, able to translate as Paul stated he can and they must?


NB: Having asked the question above, I'm not for as you put it, speaking/praying in tongues as I believe they have ceased.

Once this is answered I'll fine tune my initial question(s) to you, with the aim of determining the source of your revelations... . B)

Note: Instead of hijacking this thread we can talk privately if you wish.

 

[Trumpeter]

Note: Instead of hijacking this thread we can talk privately if you wish.

Or we could start a thread on this subject.

 

[veteran]

Amen JB, as the Word says, we are to pray and sing in the spirit, but are also to pray and sing with the understanding.

These are the 2 types of praying and singing, so we are not to do the one exclusively to the exclusion of the other.

Ask for the gift and it shall be given.

Mat 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

God bless.

Ask for what gift?? The gift of uncontrollable shaking of the head and body, uncontrollable laughter, writhing in the floor and making animal noises? running up and down the aisle like a mad man? falling backwards in the floor like Christ's enemies did that came to arrest Jesus? speaking jibberish which none present can understand?


NONE of those manifestations above are of GOD and The Holy Spirit!

JB doesn't have to ask for The Holy Spirit baptism, he already has it. Apostle Paul made it very PLAIN that NOT ALL speak the 'cloven' tongue of Pentecost (which obviously is not the same tongue you claim because the true cloven tongue MUST fit the example in Acts 2). Apostle Paul also listed the VARIOUS administrations divided among the brethren by The Holy Spirit.


One of the EASIEST ways to know one's claim of The Holy Spirit baptism being false is their adherence to the Pre-Trib secret Rapture fly away doctrine of men that began in 1830's Great Britain among those who were having those crazy seducing spirit manifestations in the above. That Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine was never a doctrine taught by Christ nor any of His Apostles.

 

[dragonfly]

I have read only this page of the thread, and have a few short things to comment.

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 12,

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


To those advocating that speaking in tongues is the only sign of a person having been baptised in the Spirit, please correct your view into line with scripture, and start believing it.

To those advocating that speaking in tongues no longer goes on today, as if the Holy Spirit can no longer bring the gift of tongues to those to whom our Lord would give it, please correct your view into line with scripture and start believing it.

Paul says there are tongues, and not everybody gets them.


On veteran's point in the preceding post, it seems to me that anyone who has received the Holy Spirit has also experienced the way He discomfits anything which is opposed to God's order in our lives. Remember when Jesus went into the Temple and started driving out the animals and birds which had been brought into it unnecessarily? Likewise, when the Holy Spirit enters the temple of a person's body, the Lord will begin driving out any other entity (spirit) that has no place in His order.

This is one reason that people whose focus is not the Lord Himself, can receive 'another spirit' at the same time as the Holy Spirit is driving 'another spirit'(s) out of those nearby them in the same meeting. Likewise, a person who already has 'another spirit' may begin manifesting it when the Holy Spirit tries to move on them (or move into them) because the 'other spirit'(s) is protesting.

Sometimes it is wise to leave a person alone, and let them make the important inner choices of their heart without outside interference, but at others, if the Holy Spirit so directs, it may be appropriate to cast out 'another spirit' which is too strong for the person to deal with on their own. Nevertheless, it can be premature to pray for another spirit to depart because of what Jesus taught about it returning with seven other spirits more wicked than itself, should the person not be ready to receive the Holy Spirit, and have Jesus come to sit at his table and eat with Him.

This is not to say that a person who needs deliverance is deliberately engaging in wickedness. They may be in a profound battle for the spiritual integrity of their souls (hearts, minds and bodily peace), which they do understand, but cannot put into words to the outside world. We all need understanding. God is well able to disentangle a person's spiritual attachments, like separating the roots of the weeds from the roots of the plant you want to keep. It can be a hidden process to those watching, but gradually order is restored to the person's being, and this should become observable over time.

The Lord is always refining us, even after we are completely free of 'other spirits'.