Why water into wine?

[bbyrd009]

tl;dr

Do you think that the Muslim who receive a vision of Jesus Christ, whether in their sleep or in plain daylight, and convert to Christianity, just like Paul on the road to Damascus, are not saved?

do you think a humble Muslim is not saved, without "converting?"

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then if you believe that, it is therefore up to you and me to go out and reach the lost.

Apparently you have trouble reading.
I said that it was up to GOD - not us who is saved and who isn't.

God uses us to evangelize - to spread His word and reach the lost.
This is Christianity 101 . . .

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (The Rock being Christ, not Peter as the C church mistakenly interprets that)
Matthew 10:32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."
Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Mark 8:34-35 "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."
John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 4:14 "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
1 John 4:15 "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

You wouldn't deny JOHN 3:16 would you? Seems to me that "whosoever" believes in Him shall be saved and it is those who are saved they are the ones baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit and therefore form the church He was talking. Now we do understand that belief involves repentance, if not we will have a situation of a wineskin that breaks.

"WHOSOEVER" doesn't negate the fact that these people must be part of His Church.
The Biblical definition of "Believing" in Christ entails more that just "believing".
According to Scripture, it includes:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Hmm! The Etheopian eunuch, once saved, was a lone ranger on his way home and was thus until he himself evangelized others. I don't think they started any denomination except being followers of Christ.

You may not think so, but I can guarantee you that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of sustaining a believing Christian while leading him in the way towards a body of believers.

WRONG.
The Ethiopian Eunuch said that he couldn't even understand the Scriptures without the help of the CHURCH. He was anything BUT a Lone Ranger because he admitted that he needed instruction from the Church.

You are very Myopic in your view of the word Church.
The word church comes from the Greek "Ekklesia" Strong's G1577
Def:

1. in a Christian sense
   1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
   2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
   3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
   4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
   5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

This should teach you (if you're teachable) that the Body of Christ is more than the C church.
So yes the Body of Christ is found all over the world, in different nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues (Rev. 7:9) even in different denomination. Whosoever as you might say.

No - my definition of "Church" is very Biblical - not near-sighted.
The Bible tells us exactly what the Church is, YOUR little perversions notwithstanding . . .

- Jesus established ONE Church (Matt. 16:16-19). He prayed fervently that this Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). There is NO other.
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).- Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

"Church" doesn't mean one of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects - ALL teaching different doctrines and ALL claiming to have the "truth".

The Church is Christ on earth.
HE is not divided into thousands of pieces - and neither can His Church be divided.

 

[bbyrd009]

neither can it be seen with your eyes

 

[BreadOfLife]

neither can it be seen with your eyes

That is completely false.
Jesus said that His Church was a VISIBLE Body:
Matt. 5:14-16
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

Imagine that - Jesus is the light (John 14:6) - and so is His Church . . .

 

[perrero]

tl;dr

do you think a humble Muslim is not saved, without "converting?"

ACTS 4:11-12
Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Although humility is an important virtue, it is not what saves an individual. A humble Chinese person is no more saved for his belief in Buddha.
God is very well capable to reach the heart of any individual in order to bring him to a saving knowledge, knowing full well that He is not willing that any should perish.

 

[pia]

ACTS 4:11-12
Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Although humility is an important virtue, it is not what saves an individual. A humble Chinese person is no more saved for his belief in Buddha.
God is very well capable to reach the heart of any individual in order to bring him to a saving knowledge, knowing full well that He is not willing that any should perish.

I have found that not many find Him or believe Him to be capable of almost anything. Very sad !

 

[perrero]

Apparently you have trouble reading.
I said that it was up to GOD - not us who is saved and who isn't.

God uses us to evangelize - to spread His word and reach the lost.
This is Christianity 101 . . .

We are arguing the same point.
God is not willing that any should perish and therefore, besides His own efforts, He conscripts you and me to reach out to the lost and lead them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

"WHOSOEVER" doesn't negate the fact that these people must be part of His Church.

I like how you slip in the Church, I assume the C Church, in every possible way. The fact is that whosoever is what it says, whosoever. When whosoever believes and repents, immediately the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of believers = the Body of Christ.

The Biblical definition of "Believing" in Christ entails more that just "believing".

No it does not. It requires belief and repentance, period.
The thief on the cross had a total change of heart and in his final moments he cried to Jesus to not forget him. He was not baptized, he did not have the opportunity to follow Christ or to produce any good works. He was forgiven and taken into paradise.
Another individual who gets saved and has time on his hands, and is not on his death bed, will be able to follow Jesus, produce the works of faith, be baptized, etc. but all that is not necessary for salvation. God looks to the heart and its sincerity in belief as opposed to having a list of prerequisites that He checks off before one can be saved.

WRONG.
The Ethiopian Eunuch said that he couldn't even understand the Scriptures without the help of the CHURCH. He was anything BUT a Lone Ranger because he admitted that he needed instruction from the Church.

Wrong
Philip, who was part of the body of Christ, was specifically instructed by the Spirit, notice the church did not send him, and, like a Lone Ranger, he approach the Eunuch all on his lonesome to instruct him in the way of salvation. Following the Eunuch's conversion, Philip disappeared, and the Eunuch was left alone with his new found faith to eventually evangelize on his own, like a Lone Ranger, to the people of his immediate surrounding and his eventual mission field, Ethiopia.

The Church is Christ on earth.
HE is not divided into thousands of pieces - and neither can His Church be divided.

Romans 12:4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function.
I will not quote the other 4 verses that say the same.

Because you see the C church as the only solution, you are incapable of seeing that Christians, actual born again believers, are not baptized into the C church but are baptized into the Body of Christ , which is all over the world in every denomination, nation, tongue, tribe. Whosoever responds to the call of the Spirit becomes a member of His Body. We are not disjointed, we are all one in Christ. One cannot say to the other that they are not needed.
You do not deny that someone can be saved outside of the C church. I submit to you that their are many more than you think. That's why I say you are myopic. You see the C church and only that. You limit God in His capacity to save anyone, whosoever, any time, any place without the obligatory C church in the process. It is a good thing you are not in charge.
Instead of rejoicing at all the salvations around the world, you stand on your pedestal denying their faith, belief in Christ because they have not been reached through the means of your denomination, the C church, when really it is the members of the Body of Christ that have gone out to make disciples of all nations.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it does not. It requires belief and repentance, period.
The thief on the cross had a total change of heart and in his final moments he cried to Jesus to not forget him. He was not baptized, he did not have the opportunity to follow Christ or to produce any good works. He was forgiven and taken into paradise.
Another individual who gets saved and has time on his hands, and is not on his death bed, will be able to follow Jesus, produce the works of faith, be baptized, etc. but all that is not necessary for salvation. God looks to the heart and its sincerity in belief as opposed to having a list of prerequisites that He checks off before one can be saved.

WRONG.
I showed you the Biblical prescription for "belief" - and it includes obedience to ALL He commands.
As for the thief on the cross - he was an exception who WOULD have been an obedient servant, had he the chance. However, he was a little busy being executed. Obedience is the norm - NOT the exception.

A little advice: Don't formulate your theology on the exception . . .

Wrong

Philip, who was part of the body of Christ, was specifically instructed by the Spirit, notice the church did not send him, and, like a Lone Ranger, he approach the Eunuch all on his lonesome to instruct him in the way of salvation. Following the Eunuch's conversion, Philip disappeared, and the Eunuch was left alone with his new found faith to eventually evangelize on his own, like a Lone Ranger, to the people of his immediate surrounding and his eventual mission field, Ethiopia.

And where does the bible state that he never joined the church??
Chapter and verse, please.

Romans 12:4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function.
I will not quote the other 4 verses that say the same.

And those many members are ONE - not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering pieces - teaching different doctrines yet claiming "unity".

The Body of Christ is united - or it is NOT the Body (John 17:20-23).

Because you see the C church as the only solution, you are incapable of seeing that Christians, actual born again believers, are not baptized into the C church but are baptized into the Body of Christ , which is all over the world in every denomination, nation, tongue, tribe. Whosoever responds to the call of the Spirit becomes a member of His Body. We are not disjointed, we are all one in Christ. One cannot say to the other that they are not needed.
You do not deny that someone can be saved outside of the C church. I submit to you that their are many more than you think. That's why I say you are myopic. You see the C church and only that. You limit God in His capacity to save anyone, whosoever, any time, any place without the obligatory C church in the process. It is a good thing you are not in charge.
Instead of rejoicing at all the salvations around the world, you stand on your pedestal denying their faith, belief in Christ because they have not been reached through the means of your denomination, the C church, when really it is the members of the Body of Christ that have gone out to make disciples of all nations.

All baptized Christians are related to the Body but those who reject the Church are divorced from it and in need of return.
And don't kid yourself that you're not disjointed because you ARE. A Baptist and a Calvinist and a 7th Day Adventist believe very different things about salvation and other essentials.

As for "all the salvations" around the world - that is not for YOU to decide - but only for GOD.
I don't know of anybody around the world who is truly saved because I'm NOT their judge - and neither are YOU . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

ACTS 4:11-12
Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Although humility is an important virtue, it is not what saves an individual. A humble Chinese person is no more saved for his belief in Buddha.
God is very well capable to reach the heart of any individual in order to bring him to a saving knowledge, knowing full well that He is not willing that any should perish.

oh, then let me rephrase; how about "devout Muslim?" ty

 

[bbyrd009]

I have found that not many find Him or believe Him to be capable of almost anything. Very sad !

and this is among those who claim to be Christian, yes?

i grew up around Muslims, and you guys would be amazed (or ashamed) at all the Scriptural stuff they just...live, that we do not even practice, and even make fun of.

 

[bbyrd009]

He conscripts you and me to reach out to the lost and lead them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

i would recommend that one first discover Who Christ is, Christ as Spirit, iow, and see that your best way to proselytize is not with your mouth, but by example. Recognize that He conscripts us to reach out to a brother in need, and perceiving them as "lost" is a way to make oneself superior, that no one would respond positively to, including anyone reading this. Just ask Mary Mog

 

[bbyrd009]

"Why water into old wine" might even be a better Q

 

[pia]

and this is among those who claim to be Christian, yes?

i grew up around Muslims, and you guys would be amazed (or ashamed) at all the Scriptural stuff they just...live, that we do not even practice, and even make fun of.

Yes, 'bbyrd' you are right about the Christians, but I am not surprised about the Muslims. Even scientists seem more committed to their beliefs than the average Christian

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, 'bbyrd' you are right about the Christians, but I am not surprised about the Muslims. Even scientists seem more committed to their beliefs than the average Christian

it would be easy to cast blame, but seekers just usually associate God with the building down the street with a cross on it, and those guys have a product to sell that the seekers want to buy, because they already rejected the hippy dude that Christ sent to them, just like most people, me, did. After all, the hippy was not "serious" enough about God for my adult mind; i had goal, in Christianity, i was motivated to Do Big Things for Jesus. lol

the system we have developed is perfect; if you buy what they are selling, then you are in the right place; and if/when you do not, there is plenty of room out here in the wilderness

 

[pia]

it would be easy to cast blame, but seekers just usually associate God with the building down the street with a cross on it, and those guys have a product to sell that the seekers want to buy, because they already rejected the hippy dude that Christ sent to them, just like most people, me, did. After all, the hippy was not "serious" enough about God for my adult mind; i had goal, in Christianity, i was motivated to Do Big Things for Jesus. lol

the system we have developed is perfect; if you buy what they are selling, then you are in the right place; and if/when you do not, there is plenty of room out here in the wilderness

Absolutely ! What I can share with you on this is that He told me the first night I met Him that if I was going to compare it to a building, then I would be a brick in HIS church, ALONG with those who believe..........You are also right that people who say they are believers in Christ Jesus, are mostly believers in what various religious organizations tell them to believe, or what one person or another has 'understood' from the Bible.
I am actually very grateful ( now ) of all the years I have been going around and around in the wilderness, because of all the things He has been able to teach me, in particular getting rid of my worldly understanding of things and my own assumptions. But the very biggest thing of all ( apart from Him being real ) has been all the things He has taught me about Gods kind of Love, I really thought I knew what love is/was, but to my amazement, I did not........In fact, one thing He showed me some 25-26 years ago ( while standing right in front of me ), was that, as He put it :" You can take virtually everything you THINK you know , and.....", then He didn't say any more but used His hands, cupped one above the another, palm to palm, and He did a 180 degree switch with the hands, and I understood immediately what He meant, and I cannot even begin to imagine the count of how many many times this has been shown to me to be the absolute truth , not that I ever doubted what He said, but it is just impossible to keep everything He says at the forefront of ones memory......Thank our merciful Father for sending both Jesus and the Holy Spirit, whom are both there to assure us NOT falling into the enemies hands ever again.
Thank you for your posts, they are always very interesting, and I appreciate that it's not all just scripture being thrown about. There is a lot to be said for plain speaking ! Have a glorious day Pia

 

[perrero]

I showed you the Biblical prescription for "belief" - and it includes obedience to ALL He commands.

No you showed me your prescription of belief and it's WRONG. Peter's very first message in Acts 2, an important one at that, kind of a make it or break moment, had the people asking what should we do? (to be saved). Peter answers Repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. 3000 people in front of him, salivating to know what to do to be saved and he tells them those three things. He didn't say; "Oh, btw here's also an important list 1) Take up your cross daily and follow Him, 2) you need works of mercy, 3) Obey all the commandments, 4) Doing the will of the Father, 5) You must suffer for Christ. Somehow Peter forgot his list, as infallible as you say he was. Let's chalk it up to old age. The next time in Acts 4, 5000 believed there message. Still no list. Matter of fact if you read about every conversion in the book of Acts you will not find your list. Obedience is not included in belief, as you say. Obedience can only be the result of belief and repentance. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Then you say; it's obedience to ALL His commands. That sounds like perfection to me, and I know you and me are not perfect, our arrogance proves that.
Did you notice Acts 16:29-31, the jailer specifically asks how to be saved and Paul replies "“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" Where's the list?

As for the thief on the cross - he was an exception who WOULD have been an obedient servant, had he the chance. However, he was a little busy being executed. Obedience is the norm - NOT the exception.

You who are not infallible decided that the example of the thief on the cross was an exception. And I'm suppose to believe you blindly. Maybe I proved my point and you just can't admit it. I didn't realize you were clairvoyant in knowing that the thief WOULD have been an obedient servant. But what if he wasn't obedient, would that be an exception. I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball. Oh, you said that the thief on the cross was an exception not that obedience was an exception. Don't confuse the issue.

A little advice: Don't formulate your theology on the exception . . .

Yes you're right. We wouldn't want to take the exception of the thief and say that he would have followed the list had he been freed and therefore spin the theology that the list is an integral part of believing.

And where does the bible state that he never joined the church??
Chapter and verse, please.

Where does the bible state that he did?
Especially when the C church didn't even exist at that time. All we know is he got saved which entails being baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit and becoming a member of the Body. Then he was baptized in water by Philip.

And those many members are ONE - not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering pieces - teaching different doctrines yet claiming "unity".
The Body of Christ is united - or it is NOT the Body (John 17:20-23)

The Body of Christ is ONE, although each member is different. The eye cannot say to the ear "I do not need you". Do you know what that means? It means that I cannot say I do not need you. Because if your goal is to lead people to Christ, then I shouldn't stop you because that's equally my ultimate goal.
But I could be wrong. Maybe your goal is to lead people to the C church. In that case you're working in a different field. But I don't know I'm not clairvoyant.

All baptized Christians are related to the Body but those who reject the Church are divorced from it and in need of return.

This should read ALL Christians, remember the thief wasn't baptized, are MEMBERS of the BODY of CHRIST and will remain in the Body as they walk in righteousness.

And don't kid yourself that you're not disjointed because you ARE. A Baptist and a Calvinist and a 7th Day Adventist believe very different things about salvation and other essentials.

Actually, the C church also has a different belief on salvation, some think that there is a whole list of things that one needs to be doing in order to be saved.

As for "all the salvations" around the world - that is not for YOU to decide - but only for GOD.
I don't know of anybody around the world who is truly saved because I'm NOT their judge - and neither are YOU . . .

You know Billy Graham got saved somewhere in the world and was called by God to be an evangelist to the world preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. And like Peter and Paul he had more than 3000 or 5000 get saved under his ministry. Yet you would believe that because they are not Catholic they are not saved. Do you thing Billy preached about becoming baptist? No, he knew the Gospel was about Christ and Christ alone. Your gospel is about the C church alone. Such a shame.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are also right that people who say they are believers in Christ Jesus, are mostly believers in what various religious organizations tell them to believe, or what one person or another has 'understood' from the Bible.

a reflection of "the heir is under the servants as a child, even though he is the master of all." imo

 

[bbyrd009]

He did a 180 degree switch with the hands

this is why i like the term "rebound" rather than "repentance," which carries echoes of "penance."

 

[bbyrd009]

I really thought I knew what love is/was, but to my amazement, I did not

ha you're way ahead of me there, that is still pretty much just a concept to me that i am aware of

 

[BreadOfLife]

No you showed me your prescription of belief and it's WRONG. Peter's very first message in Acts 2, an important one at that, kind of a make it or break moment, had the people asking what should we do? (to be saved). Peter answers Repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. 3000 people in front of him, salivating to know what to do to be saved and he tells them those three things. He didn't say; "Oh, btw here's also an important list 1) Take up your cross daily and follow Him, 2) you need works of mercy, 3) Obey all the commandments, 4) Doing the will of the Father, 5) You must suffer for Christ. Somehow Peter forgot his list, as infallible as you say he was. Let's chalk it up to old age. The next time in Acts 4, 5000 believed there message. Still no list. Matter of fact if you read about every conversion in the book of Acts you will not find your list. Obedience is not included in belief, as you say. Obedience can only be the result of belief and repentance. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Then you say; it's obedience to ALL His commands. That sounds like perfection to me, and I know you and me are not perfect, our arrogance proves that.
Did you notice Acts 16:29-31, the jailer specifically asks how to be saved and Paul replies "“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" Where's the list?

When Peter told the crown to repent and be Baptized - this is the FIRST act of obedience.
Of course they can't be expected to have done everything. they are brand new believers.

As for obeying ALL His commands - this is neither arrogance nor perfection.
We are to STRIVE to do His will - ALL of it. If you're not striving to be obedient to ALL He commands - then you are disobedient.

You who are not infallible decided that the example of the thief on the cross was an exception. And I'm suppose to believe you blindly. Maybe I proved my point and you just can't admit it. I didn't realize you were clairvoyant in knowing that the thief WOULD have been an obedient servant. But what if he wasn't obedient, would that be an exception. I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball. Oh, you said that the thief on the cross was an exception not that obedience was an exception. Don't confuse the issue.

No - simply logic and faith in God shows us that the thief on the cross was an exception.
Jesus said that we must be baptized with Water (John 3:5) - but the thief on the cross didn't have the chance to be baptized. He is the classic example of an exception.

Yes you're right. We wouldn't want to take the exception of the thief and say that he would have followed the list had he been freed and therefore spin the theology that the list is an integral part of believing.

???

Where does the bible state that he did? Especially when the C church didn't even exist at that time. All we know is he got saved which entails being baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit and becoming a member of the Body. Then he was baptized in water by Philip.

No - he was baptized by Philip before he was baptized by the Spirit.
YOUR initial claim that the Eunuch went off on his own and never joined a Church community is completely unfounded.

Anyway, we know from the writings of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch that the Catholic Church existed in the FIRST century.
That is simply an historical fact. Read his Letter to the Smyrnaeans . . .

The Body of Christ is ONE, although each member is different. The eye cannot say to the ear "I do not need you". Do you know what that means? It means that I cannot say I do not need you. Because if your goal is to lead people to Christ, then I shouldn't stop you because that's equally my ultimate goal.
But I could be wrong. Maybe your goal is to lead people to the C church. In that case you're working in a different field. But I don't know I'm not clairvoyant.

Christ's Church is ONE Body - not tens of thousands of splintering "bodies".
HIS Body doesn't teach tens of thousands of different and competing doctrines.
HIS Body is united in belief and doctrine. It is ONE, as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).

When you have tens of thousands of splintered sects teaching different doctrines with different interpretations of Scripture - it is not ONE Body. The 7th Day Adventist CAN say to the Calvinist, "I have no need of you" because they're NOT from the same Body. Same goes for the Lutheran and the Presbyterian or the Methodist or the Quaker or the Baptist, etc.

This should read ALL Christians, remember the thief wasn't baptized, are MEMBERS of the BODY of CHRIST and will remain in the Body as they walk in righteousness.

As I've already illustrated quite clearly - the Thief was an exception to the norm.
Aborted babies are probably ALSO exceptions to the norm as are unbaptized babies.

Actually, the C church also has a different belief on salvation, some think that there is a whole list of things that one needs to be doing in order to be saved.

No, the Catholic Church holds to the Biblical prescription for salvation: Enduring faith TO THE END.

You know Billy Graham got saved somewhere in the world and was called by God to be an evangelist to the world preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. And like Peter and Paul he had more than 3000 or 5000 get saved under his ministry. Yet you would believe that because they are not Catholic they are not saved. Do you thing Billy preached about becoming baptist? No, he knew the Gospel was about Christ and Christ alone. Your gospel is about the C church alone. Such a shame.

No - I never said that Billy Graham or the thousands of people he helped weren't saved.
I said that NOBODY's salvation is up for me or YOU to decide. That is up to GOD alone.

I sincerely HOPE that Billy Graham makes it to Heaven. However, I won't know until I get there myself.
It's pretty arrogant of you to think it is up to YOU to decide who is saved and who isn't . . .[/QUOTE]