Why water into wine?

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pia

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this is why i like the term "rebound" rather than "repentance," which carries echoes of "penance."
Hi 'bbyrd' Yeah I got very confused in my attempt to join a fellowship because all of them had this idea that we have to go around repenting all day long, and what they meant by it, was to crawl to God and beg Him for forgiveness.
Thank God He set me straight on that also. Jesus used the 'Prodigal son' to illustrate this to me. He said that to repent merely means ' to return to our Father ' ( at least when it comes to saved Christians ). He showed me that every time I make a mistake, I am turning either slightly or a lot away from Him, but all I have to do is to 'say/call' His name, and I have repented, as I have now turned toward Him again. The ones who run away from Him and stay away, they are a problem to Him, because He is ever patiently waiting for them to stop the pity party and/or the self condemnation and just come to Him.
He actually said once :" Do not beg, it avails nothing." Thank you for your posts, I love the way we have come from different
places and yet we have been able to be kind to one another, as The Lord commanded us :)
I just realized that some on the forum may not agree with His stand on repentance, especially when it comes to the first time. Again, it's not about saying how sorry we are, it's about turning to God and acknowledge Him, and then go on to having an actual relationship with Him, through Jesus and the Holy spirit. The whole reason He made mankind was for fellowship and someone to lavish all His Love unto, as He had done with Adam at the beginning. Thankfully Adam and Eve did not have The Holy spirit within them, as if they had, and then fell, there would have been no remedy. Praise His Holy Name forever more !
 

pia

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ha you're way ahead of me there, that is still pretty much just a concept to me that i am aware of
I love the way you make me actually laugh out loud almost every day. Can't thank you enough for that...I do need you to know though, that I can't always love the way I should, that stubborn flesh ! I am just grateful He showed me how wrong I had been, there is nothing quite like being corrected by The Lord, He has a tremendous way to go about it, where I am actually super grateful that He cares enough to do it, and not ONCE has He made me feel bad about any of it. 100% Love, 100% of the time....Hallelujah ! Thanks again.........Peace and blessings Pia
 
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perrero

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When Peter told the crown to repent and be Baptized - this is the FIRST act of obedience.
Of course they can't be expected to have done everything. they are brand new believers.
As for obeying ALL His commands - this is neither arrogance nor perfection.
We are to STRIVE to do His will - ALL of it. If you're not striving to be obedient to ALL He commands - then you are disobedient.

I would like to think that all Christians strive to do all His will. But you know very well that the flesh is weak, and so when Christians falter in their walk they are not instantly eliminated from their heavenly goal. That is why we have an advocate before the Father, in the Person of Jesus Christ, to whom we can turn to and seek forgiveness. Unfortunately for many, you are placing a large list of Dos & Don'ts that enslave people and make the "run for the prize" an obstacle course of legalism. Furthermore, it wouldn't matter if I followed every bit of your list to perfection, because if I'm not Catholic I simply cannot be saved. Might as well admit it.

No - simply logic and faith in God shows us that the thief on the cross was an exception.
Jesus said that we must be baptized with Water (John 3:5) - but the thief on the cross didn't have the chance to be baptized. He is the classic example of an exception.
As I've already illustrated quite clearly - the Thief was an exception to the norm.
Aborted babies are probably ALSO exceptions to the norm as are unbaptized babies.

It started with the thief on the cross as an exception. Now we have aborted babies and non baptized babies as exceptions. What about the woman at the well?
The apostles weren't around to baptize her and we now that Jesus didn't baptize. If this is so crucial why didn't Jesus run after her and say wait a minute there's more to this living water thing. You need to baptized and then I have a whole list here for you. That is why the C church is so wrong it is filled with legalism , lists, and works as requirements of salvation. No thanks, Jesus came to set me free. I'll choose to follow Him and do what He tells me to do which will involve obedience, but I'll do it because I love Him and want to please Him, not because He burdens me to do it.

We can see by the exceptions above, that when things don't fit in your theology, I guess you have another trump card called "Exceptions" It's like when you choose to use your famous BIG word "Anthropomorphism" Funny how you don't use your BIG word when it comes to eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. Oh! Now I know why, it's an Exception.

When you have tens of thousands of splintered sects teaching different doctrines with different interpretations of Scripture - it is not ONE Body. The 7th Day Adventist CAN say to the Calvinist, "I have no need of you" because they're NOT from the same Body. Same goes for the Lutheran and the Presbyterian or the Methodist or the Quaker or the Baptist, etc.

Once again you forgot a denomination in that listing, it's Catholicism.
Your problem is that you clearly do not understand what the Body of Christ is. And here's a newsflash it's NOT the Catholic Church or any other denomination. The Body of Christ is anybody on the face of this planet who bows his heart to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, (Head of the body) asking in repentance forgiveness for his sins and turning in obedience to follow him. Belief and repentance will bring the Spirit to regenerate your dead soul and baptize you into the body. So simple a child can do it. Without your legalistic list.

No, the Catholic Church holds to the Biblical prescription for salvation: Enduring faith TO THE END.
And you don't think that the Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists etc. hold to Enduring Faith to the end? Do you think they hold to believing in Jesus and living in debauchery?

I sincerely HOPE that Billy Graham makes it to Heaven. However, I won't know until I get there myself.
It's pretty arrogant of you to think it is up to YOU to decide who is saved and who isn't . . .

Well, no he will not make it to heaven because he is "divorced" form the C church and therefore unsaved, according to your judgment. Never mind you don't know if he is saved or not therefore you are leaving it to God, you know full well that based on your legalistic Catholic theology that he is outside the church and therefore lost. And every other person outside the C church is also lost. Why don't you just come out and say it?
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Catholic Church;


You might as well rewrite the Bible that way because that is what you believe.
But you're too blind to it, so I'm wasting my time.
I'm done.
Send your reply, because I know you need to get the last word in in order to look good and feel you won this whole diatribe.
But I guarantee you, I will not read it. I can only take so much heresy.
 
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perrero

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The whole reason He made mankind was for fellowship and someone to lavish all His Love unto, as He had done with Adam at the beginning.

A bold statement, Pia, to which I 100% agree.
Most Christians believe that we were created to glorify God and worship Him, period.
But was God so insecure that He needed our adulation. I don't think so.
God is love and out of that love He chose to create us and shower us with it.
Mind you for all that, how can we not praise and worship Him. To God be the Glory!
 
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BreadOfLife

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I would like to think that all Christians strive to do all His will. But you know very well that the flesh is weak, and so when Christians falter in their walk they are not instantly eliminated from their heavenly goal. That is why we have an advocate before the Father, in the Person of Jesus Christ, to whom we can turn to and seek forgiveness. Unfortunately for many, you are placing a large list of Dos & Don'ts that enslave people and make the "run for the prize" an obstacle course of legalism. Furthermore, it wouldn't matter if I followed every bit of your list to perfection, because if I'm not Catholic I simply cannot be saved. Might as well admit it.
Not at ALL.
EVERYBODY stumbles into sin. However, an unrepentant person will NOT be forgiven.
A person who doesn't forgive his neighbor will not be forgiven.

Only those who remain faithful to the end will make it to Heaven (Heb. 3:14).
It's not about perfection - it's about faithfulness and obedience . . .
It started with the thief on the cross as an exception. Now we have aborted babies and non baptized babies as exceptions. What about the woman at the well?
The apostles weren't around to baptize her and we now that Jesus didn't baptize. If this is so crucial why didn't Jesus run after her and say wait a minute there's more to this living water thing. You need to baptized and then I have a whole list here for you. That is why the C church is so wrong it is filled with legalism , lists, and works as requirements of salvation. No thanks, Jesus came to set me free. I'll choose to follow Him and do what He tells me to do which will involve obedience, but I'll do it because I love Him and want to please Him, not because He burdens me to do it.

We can see by the exceptions above, that when things don't fit in your theology, I guess you have another trump card called "Exceptions" It's like when you choose to use your famous BIG word "Anthropomorphism" Funny how you don't use your BIG word when it comes to eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. Oh! Now I know why, it's an Exception.
We don't know what happened to the woman at the well - just like the Bible is silent about unbaptized and aborted babies.
We leave them to the mercy of God. If they are saved - then they ARE exceptions to John 3:5 and Mark 16:16.

The Thief on the cross got a guarantee. the above-mentioned didn't . . .
Once again you forgot a denomination in that listing, it's Catholicism.
Your problem is that you clearly do not understand what the Body of Christ is. And here's a newsflash it's NOT the Catholic Church or any other denomination. The Body of Christ is anybody on the face of this planet who bows his heart to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, (Head of the body) asking in repentance forgiveness for his sins and turning in obedience to follow him. Belief and repentance will bring the Spirit to regenerate your dead soul and baptize you into the body. So simple a child can do it. Without your legalistic list.
The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the original Tree from which Protestantism splintered.
And you don't think that the Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists etc. hold to Enduring Faith to the end? Do you think they hold to believing in Jesus and living in debauchery?

James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS "believe".
Obeying is a whole other kettle of fish.

It's not about living in "debauchery". I know a LOT of non-believers who live clean, simple lives - yet they reject Christ and His Church.

Tell me something - when Jesus commands us to eat His flesh and drink His blood or we will NOT have life within us - why do so many of you disobey??
Well, no he will not make it to heaven because he is "divorced" form the C church and therefore unsaved, according to your judgment. Never mind you don't know if he is saved or not therefore you are leaving it to God, you know full well that based on your legalistic Catholic theology that he is outside the church and therefore lost. And every other person outside the C church is also lost. Why don't you just come out and say it?
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Catholic Church;

That's NOT what the Catholic Church teaches - none of it. Try to stay focused here.

Billy Graham's standing with God is between Billy Graham and GOD - not the Church , not me and definitely not YOU.
You might as well rewrite the Bible that way because that is what you believe.
But you're too blind to it, so I'm wasting my time.
I'm done.
Send your reply, because I know you need to get the last word in in order to look good and feel you won this whole diatribe.
But I guarantee you, I will not read it. I can only take so much heresy.
Face it - you were having the time of your life spewing your anti-Catholic garbage until some of us showed up and exposed your lies.

Disagree with the Church all you want - but be honest about it.
 

perrero

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He showed me that every time I make a mistake, I am turning either slightly or a lot away from Him, but all I have to do is to 'say/call' His name, and I have repented, as I have now turned toward Him again.

I have already shared this elsewhere in these forums, but if you'll allow me I'll share what the Lord showed me about repentance when I was writing my book.
RE = Recognize you are a sinner (or for believers you are sinning)
PEN = Approach God with a Penitent heart
TAN = There must be a tangible change of heart
CE = Ceasing all sin and unrighteousness.

It's copyrighted in my book but you can use that if you want. It is gospel so I don't have a copyright on that.
 

pia

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A bold statement, Pia, to which I 100% agree.
Most Christians believe that we were created to glorify God and worship Him, period.
But was God so insecure that He needed our adulation. I don't think so.
God is love and out for that love He chose to create us and shower us with it.
Mind you for all that, how can we not praise and worship Him. To God be the Glory!
Absolutely..... I tend to praise Him more than I do anything else. How could I not, with the immense Love He has shown toward us.....If we were to Love as Jesus told us to love we would be glorifying Him, don't you think?
 

mjrhealth

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It is the original Tree from which Protestantism splintered.
yours is not here you are off on flights of fancy.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

priests raping children, not good fruit, children being castrated for there voices, not good fruit. time you came down off your high horse before you fall off.
 
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bbyrd009

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The Body of Christ is anybody on the face of this planet who bows his heart to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, (Head of the body) asking in repentance forgiveness for his sins and turning in obedience to follow him.
nice. i would suggest furthermore that this is a spiritual operation, that may even be accomplished without all of the rhetoric. If you stop looking for people who talk like you do, and start looking for people who manifest Christ, at least you know who you can turn your back on maybe--not sure why else one might even want to be trying to identify other people anyway
 

pia

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thats what you preach daily.sorry we just need Jesus, if you would rather religion, you are welcome to it.
Well this man is obviously some sort of perfect man, it seems ( he is a legend in his own mind)... He is full to the brim, and even the Lord ( I'm sure ) couldn't tell this man a single solitary thing. He would no doubt call Jesus a liar too, as he has on many occasions ( even if he is unaware, but then he shouldn't appoint himself to the one who explains everything to other believers.....I really do not know how forums allow this, unbelievable ! I tried to extend an olive branch so to speak today, and what did he do? Ignore almost everything i wrote ( AGAIN ) and refuses to answer, just like he does to you and others.
Quite frankly, I'm not sure even the devil get me close to losing my adorable peace in the Lord, the way this man does.....Did Jesus ever tell anyone to do that? Hope you are well and hope to see you soon :) Bless you
 

pia

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so much easier than actually asking forgiveness from whomever one offended, i guess. That way one's ego is left intact.
I actually meant the Christians who spend most of their time in what they call repentance. You're right, too many people are so stubborn in saying sorry to one another, but that's also just pride, as you pointed out ( ego wise ).
 

pia

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Absolutely..... I tend to praise Him more than I do anything else. How could I not, with the immense Love He has shown toward us.....If we were to Love as Jesus told us to love we would be glorifying Him, don't you think?
Hi, the only reason I said that, was that once the Lord showed me that from the beginning, before He made all this, He did not have anyone to share His love with and as He said :" Love alone is nothingness."
 

pia

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A bold statement, Pia, to which I 100% agree.
Most Christians believe that we were created to glorify God and worship Him, period.
But was God so insecure that He needed our adulation. I don't think so.
God is love and out for that love He chose to create us and shower us with it.
Mind you for all that, how can we not praise and worship Him. To God be the Glory!
Hi, the only reason I said that, was that once the Lord showed me that from the beginning, before He made all this, He did not have anyone to share His love with and as He said :" Love alone is nothingness."
 

bbyrd009

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I actually meant the Christians who spend most of their time in what they call repentance. You're right, too many people are so stubborn in saying sorry to one another, but that's also just pride, as you pointed out ( ego wise ).
give me a humble heathen any day lol
 
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pia

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so much easier than actually asking forgiveness from whomever one offended, i guess. That way one's ego is left intact.
I could have sworn I just posted a reply to you about half hour ago ? Must have sent it once again to the wrong post....so sorry.
 

bbyrd009

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I could have sworn I just posted a reply to you about half hour ago ? Must have sent it once again to the wrong post....so sorry.
ha no, it's up there...
I actually meant the Christians who spend most of their time in what they call repentance. You're right, too many people are so stubborn in saying sorry to one another, but that's also just pride, as you pointed out ( ego wise ).
 
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epostle1

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I would like to think that all Christians strive to do all His will. But you know very well that the flesh is weak, and so when Christians falter in their walk they are not instantly eliminated from their heavenly goal. That is why we have an advocate before the Father, in the Person of Jesus Christ, to whom we can turn to and seek forgiveness. Unfortunately for many, you are placing a large list of Dos & Don'ts that enslave people and make the "run for the prize" an obstacle course of legalism. Furthermore, it wouldn't matter if I followed every bit of your list to perfection, because if I'm not Catholic I simply cannot be saved. Might as well admit it.
You don't have to be so insulting.
Paul talks about running a race in 1 Cor. 9:24-27. Legalism is doing works of the law, which has nothing to do with good works. Scripture alone and faith alone are the worst legalisms IMO.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

If you have 100% assurance of salvation, then you already have your prize, and have no need to persevere, the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.
It started with the thief on the cross as an exception. Now we have aborted babies and non baptized babies as exceptions. What about the woman at the well?
Water baptism is normative, but the Good Thief had the baptism of desire. The baptism of blood (martyrdom) is a third type of baptism.
The apostles weren't around to baptize her and we now that Jesus didn't baptize. If this is so crucial why didn't Jesus run after her and say wait a minute there's more to this living water thing. You need to baptized and then I have a whole list here for you. That is why the C church is so wrong it is filled with legalism , lists, and works as requirements of salvation.
Jesus is not talking about water baptism in John 4:13, and not a single Protestant commentary says otherwise.
No thanks, Jesus came to set me free. I'll choose to follow Him and do what He tells me to do which will involve obedience, but I'll do it because I love Him and want to please Him, not because He burdens me to do it.
13 Jesus said to her, “Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
You have a very comic book view of the Church. We are no more burdened to do anything than you are.

We can see by the exceptions above, that when things don't fit in your theology, I guess you have another trump card called "Exceptions" It's like when you choose to use your famous BIG word "Anthropomorphism" Funny how you don't use your BIG word when it comes to eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. Oh! Now I know why, it's an Exception.
This is meaningless ranting. The Thief on the Cross was saved because Jesus said so, yet he didn't meet all your cookie-cutter legalistic criteria for salvation. Baptism of Desire doesn't fit your legalistic theology. That's the point BoL was trying to make but instead you ran off with your arms flailing.

Once again you forgot a denomination in that listing, it's Catholicism.
Your problem is that you clearly do not understand what the Body of Christ is. And here's a newsflash it's NOT the Catholic Church or any other denomination. The Body of Christ is anybody on the face of this planet who bows his heart to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, (Head of the body) asking in repentance forgiveness for his sins and turning in obedience to follow him. Belief and repentance will bring the Spirit to regenerate your dead soul and baptize you into the body. So simple a child can do it. Without your legalistic list.
Again, you don't need to be so insulting (which is based on ignorance and prejudice). There is nothing in the Bible about an invisible church.
Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?
If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?

Well, no he will not make it to heaven because he is "divorced" form the C church and therefore unsaved, according to your judgment. Never mind you don't know if he is saved or not therefore you are leaving it to God, you know full well that based on your legalistic Catholic theology that he is outside the church and therefore lost. And every other person outside the C church is also lost. Why don't you just come out and say it?
The CC doesn't teach that. How would you like it if I made up lies about what your church teaches (if you have one)?
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Catholic Church;

More insults. The Protestant mindset makes false dichotomies all over the place. To them, ONE mediator must mean there can be no subordinate mediators. This thinking is contrary to scripture.
Fr. John Hardon explains:

… the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.

This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.

Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:

Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.

The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men...” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:

But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is.
In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!
 
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