Why water into wine?

[GodsGrace]

The Mysterious Word "Church" | Bein' a Berean
Hi....Do you KNOW the actual history of the C C ? If you checked it out, I believe you would be absolutely shocked ! Or are you like other C C members, who just refuse to accept what history has shown, as well as the torture chambers of the Catholic church, STILL in it's original torture room, preserved now as a museum...... I almost fainted when I looked at those things, and the thought of how they used some of those awful instruments on ANYONE who wouldn't 'denounce' the devil and convert to Catholicism or even just convert.. .... Any person who can claim that the group who did these things were men of God, really need their head examined...........How about the Cardinal ( or Cardinals ) not sure how many were in the room, who were recently busted by police, who then found these 'men of the cloth' engaged in sex with young men and taking all sorts of highly illegal drugs like Heroin and cocaine...........According to some, who think the men of the C C's hierarchy are Gods special people, I would just say.......You need help, ASK JESUS !!! http://www.beinaberean.org/writings/church.html.....here is some of that history if interested.

Hi Pia,

There's enough blame to go around.
Protestants burned people and dunked witches in lakes till they drowned and did all sorts of things. Mr. Calvin didn't burn anyone personally, but was pretty happy when one of his opponents was burned at the stake.

I was talking about the C C, NOT of men. Men are infected with the Sin Nature and I don't care much for any of any faith. Some of our Protestant ministers have been found doing some pretty naughty stuff too, some were even criminals and landed themselves in jail.

So, yes, I know the history of the C C. I know that it was the only Church that could be traced back to the Apostles. I know that it's the Church that kept many heresies out of our faith so that it could remain "pure". I know that it put the bible together, the very book we use. I know that if it wasn't for the C C we'd all be speaking Arabic right now.

So, there's good and bad like everything in life because MEN run things.
But that has nothing to do with the history of the C C. The history is still the history --- just depends what part of it you want to concentrate on.

 

[pia]

And again, Pia - thousands and thousands of perpetually-splintering and bickering factions is not what Jesus willed

Well now, see........we are actually in agreement............What we do not agree on is your thought that Jesus, our Father and the Holy Spirit is somehow unable to take care of and teaching His own, but needs men who dress up in fancy robes and put themselves above others, to do His (work) for Him.............Be blessed in Him Pia

 

[pia]

Hi Pia,

There's enough blame to go around.
Protestants burned people and dunked witches in lakes till they drowned and did all sorts of things. Mr. Calvin didn't burn anyone personally, but was pretty happy when one of his opponents was burned at the stake.

I was talking about the C C, NOT of men. Men are infected with the Sin Nature and I don't care much for any of any faith. Some of our Protestant ministers have been found doing some pretty naughty stuff too, some were even criminals and landed themselves in jail.

So, yes, I know the history of the C C. I know that it was the only Church that could be traced back to the Apostles. I know that it's the Church that kept many heresies out of our faith so that it could remain "pure". I know that it put the bible together, the very book we use. I know that if it wasn't for the C C we'd all be speaking Arabic right now.

So, there's good and bad like everything in life because MEN run things.
But that has nothing to do with the history of the C C. The history is still the history --- just depends what part of it you want to concentrate on.

All I and others have been saying over and over ad nauseum, is that ALL men's religions differ and are not Truth.....Only Jesus' Church is the TRUE church made up of those HE KNOWS the heart of and who put ALL their trust in Him, and not an institution started and run by men........ God bless you Pia :)

 

[GodsGrace]

All I and others have been saying over and over ad nauseum, is that ALL men's religions differ and are not Truth.....Only Jesus' Church is the TRUE church made up of those HE KNOWS the heart of and who put ALL their trust in Him, and not an institution started and run by men........ God bless you Pia :)

Well, there's some amount of truth in every Church. I mean the bldg.
Does any Church have ALL the truth? No.
Man does not have the mind of God and we like to twist what Jesus said and what Paul and the Others said to suit what we believe to be the truth.

However, we also need the institution. We're like a bunch of little coals, all burning together in the hearth. If you take one coal away and put it far from the Others, it gets cold and burns out. We were meant to be together physically to encourage each other and to share God's word and to remember the Lord's Supper with communion.
This is what the early Christians did and what we should do.
Hebrews 10:24-25

 

[pia]

other and to share God's word and to remember the Lord's Supper with communion.

I certainly agree that is how His believers are supposed to be to one another, but that surely isn't the case everywhere, or actually anywhere, I have been attending...............EVERY time, I came across a person or a few people who were the 'appointed' leaders of whatever fellowship, who would set about 'lording' it over the others, and often telling them untruths about our Lord, thus making them afraid of not listening tho THEM.
we are supposed to LOVE one another.....See 1 cor 13:1-3 Now tell me this is what you have found in those buildings ?

 

[perrero]

However, we also need the institution

No, we do not need the institution. Whether it's the C C or any other denomination. "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name Christ is in the midst" When a person gets saved, he is baptized into the "body of Christ" not into a denomination or the C C. The Body of Christ is in the world and is made "One" by the Spirit. Jesus prayed that we would be ONE not One church. A group of Muslims who convert to Christianity, do so because Christ brought them the Gospel or appeared in a vision or dream, begin to read His word, pray and assemble in the desert or in caves in fear for their life. These will probably never encounter the C C. Will you deny them heaven because of that?
BoL will not say that these people are lost but neither will he say that they are saved. That's because he believes in a predetermined list of things that one must do in order to be saved which includes been part of the Catholic Church. He is like most Catholics who believe that you are saved by grace + works. But the thief on the cross didn't perform any works. So then BoL says he is an exception. Oh but the Woman at the well didn't perform any works. She just believed and shared and brought revival to her whole village. Ah, but she is another exception, BoL says. What about all the unborn children? Ah, well... they are also exceptions. How many exceptions to we have to afford BoL before we believe his godless theology.

Let me tell you something, there is not a thing on this earth that you can do that will make you acceptable in God's eyes."All our righteousness is as filthy rags" Isiah 64:6
And once you get saved, I trust you know what that means, He makes us "to be the Righteousness of God in Him". Which means that there is nothing you can do after salvation that will make any better, more loved, more accepted in Him. Do you know of any work you can do that will improve on the Righteousness of God?

Having said that, The word says, and I believe to be (what I call) a NT Commandment, "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves" Heb. 10:25 . As we are all member of One Body (not one denomination or institution) the members cannot say to each other I don't need you. The Head cannot say to the feet; "I have no need of you". Notice that the head is Christ and the feet are those who spread the Gospel. Eph. " 6:15 Even Christ is saying He needs us, so much more do we need each other. The eye can't say to the nose " Get out of my face" ;) Pun. We all need each other for support, prayer, reproof, teaching, healing, etc. And when we don't recognize this Paul states that that's why many of us are sick and asleep (dead). God's purpose is community so that with the power of unity we can tear down strongholds for Him. Deu. 32:30 Ecc. 4:12

Many people think that following Jesus and Jesus alone is all they need. Unfortunately that is not the way God intended it. They see things going on in churches that shouldn't be or they were hurt by people in a church context and therefore throw the baby out with the bathwater. They hunt around for a new church, a perfect church, but do not realize that the moment they walk in the door it's not perfect anymore. That's why there are so many denominations. But do you think God cannot save people nevertheless?

Here's a question for you, and please don't feel intimidated.
What would you say is the meaning of, " My Glory shall fill the earth" ?


Just saying, God bless.

 

[GodsGrace]

I certainly agree that is how His believers are supposed to be to one another, but that surely isn't the case everywhere, or actually anywhere, I have been attending...............EVERY time, I came across a person or a few people who were the 'appointed' leaders of whatever fellowship, who would set about 'lording' it over the others, and often telling them untruths about our Lord, thus making them afraid of not listening tho THEM.
we are supposed to LOVE one another.....See 1 cor 13:1-3 Now tell me this is what you have found in those buildings ?

Gosh, I wish entire statements would be posted.
Who could remember what I said?

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
Love.
If you don't find love in your Church, leave it.
I have.
Try a Nazarene Church.
Try a good Vineyard Church.
Right now I'm attending a Catholic Church.
Plenty of love from the born again believers there.

Look for what you need.
The Church of God has been splintered into many groups.
If a Group believes only they are right in EVERYTHING, they may not show love but will show arrogance.

So, yes, it is possible to find love in those buildings.
Keep looking. Don't isolate yourself.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we do not need the institution. Whether it's the C C or any other denomination. "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name Christ is in the midst" When a person gets saved, he is baptized into the "body of Christ" not into a denomination or the C C. The Body of Christ is in the world and is made "One" by the Spirit. Jesus prayed that we would be ONE not One church. A group of Muslims who convert to Christianity, do so because Christ brought them the Gospel or appeared in a vision or dream, begin to read His word, pray and assemble in the desert or in caves in fear for their life. These will probably never encounter the C C. Will you deny them heaven because of that?

I believe that Jesus DID MEAN to set up ONE Church. HIS Church.
When He sent the Apostles out in the Great Commission, Mathew 28:19
He told them to go into all the nations and teach them all that he had commanded and to baptize all believers.

He said that they were to make disciples of everyone and that He would Always be with them. I understand about the Body of Christ and how WE are the Church (with a capital C ---my keyboard capitalizes every word "Church", sorry---)
However, to be able to do what Jesus wanted would REQUIRE a bldg where persons could congregate, as in Hebrews 10:25, receive baptism in a community atmosphere and share the bread and wine i remembrance of Him, as He commanded.

I agree that a person is baptized into the Body of Christ and not into a specific Church. Sidenote: Are you aware that some churches DO ask that one be baptized AGAIN if they want to be a memeber? This is very wrong.

I do believe that Jesus meant to have only ONE CHURCH, bldg, with His name on it. But, being human, we get everything messed up. If the C C had remained pure, there never would have had to be a reformation.

As to the Muslim, of course they would be saved. Jesus saves, not a Church.
I think what BoL means is that the Church announces Jesus so that one HEARS the word. Of course, that may not be true today, with TV, etc.

BoL will not say that these people are lost but neither will he say that they are saved. That's because he believes in a predetermined list of things that one must do in order to be saved which includes been part of the Catholic Church. He is like most Catholics who believe that you are saved by grace + works. But the thief on the cross didn't perform any works. So then BoL says he is an exception. Oh but the Woman at the well didn't perform any works. She just believed and shared and brought revival to her whole village. Ah, but she is another exception, BoL says. What about all the unborn children? Ah, well... they are also exceptions. How many exceptions to we have to afford BoL before we believe his godless theology.

BoL is repeating what HIS Church believes. Nothing wrong with that. Those attending an Assembly of God Church will tell you if you don't speak in tongues you dont have the Holy Spirit. Why be so intimidated by what BoL says? We each say our thoughts and that's all we could do.

I grew up Catholic and taught there ad know Catholic doctrine. I left because there was too much I couldn't agree with. But there's also a lot in the Protestant Churches that i don't agree with. So? Threre are just a couple of doctrine that could bring one to lose salvation.

God is a big God. He's not Catholic, or Baptist, or Lutheran or anything and He's EVERYTHING. If we don't understand this, we underestimate the Creator of the universe. We put Him in a very small box.

Let me tell you something, there is not a thing on this earth that you can do that will make you acceptable in God's eyes."All our righteousness is as filthy rags" Isiah 64:6
And once you get saved, I trust you know what that means, He makes us "to be the Righteousness of God in Him". Which means that there is nothing you can do after salvation that will make any better, more loved, more accepted in Him. Do you know of any work you can do that will improve on the Righteousness of God?

The Catholic Church teaches the same as the Protestant church.
Ephesians 2:8
We are saved by God's grace, through our faith in Jesus. Our faith saves us.
I think what BoL is saying is that it does not end there.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, that we should walk in them.
We might ask what these good works are, but we can't deny that we are God's hands and feet.

Isaiah says that our RIGHTEOUSNESS is as filthy rags. Not our works.
God would never say that because He does desire that we do good works or deeds for
His Kingdom here on earth.
The thief the cross could not do any deeds but believe.
We don't know too much about the woman at the well. I would say that her Whole life chnanged. Maybe she even got married!
Babies. The innocent are not judged. God is a just God.

Having said that, The word says, and I believe to be (what I call) a NT Commandment, "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves" Heb. 10:25 . As we are all member of One Body (not one denomination or institution) the members cannot say to each other I don't need you. The Head cannot say to the feet; "I have no need of you". Notice that the head is Christ and the feet are those who spread the Gospel. Eph. " 6:15 Even Christ is saying He needs us, so much more do we need each other. The eye can't say to the nose " Get out of my face" ;) Pun. We all need each other for support, prayer, reproof, teaching, healing, etc. And when we don't recognize this Paul states that that's why many of us are sick and asleep (dead). God's purpose is community so that with the power of unity we can tear down strongholds for Him. Deu. 32:30 Ecc. 4:12

Many people think that following Jesus and Jesus alone is all they need. Unfortunately that is not the way God intended it. They see things going on in churches that shouldn't be or they were hurt by people in a church context and therefore throw the baby out with the bathwater. They hunt around for a new church, a perfect church, but do not realize that the moment they walk in the door it's not perfect anymore. That's why there are so many denominations. But do you think God cannot save people nevertheless?

I agree. God saved before we knew about God.
Romans 1:19-20

Here's a question for you, and please don't feel intimidated.
What would you say is the meaning of, " My Glory shall fill the earth" ?
God is available for those who wish to see Him.


Just saying, God bless.

Hi Perrero,
I think I need special time to answer your post. You get into so much!

Please notice how I posted the ENTIRE COMMENT.
I wish this would be the normal thing to do!

I'll answer your post using different color.
Click to expand.

 

[GodsGrace]

I certainly agree that is how His believers are supposed to be to one another, but that surely isn't the case everywhere, or actually anywhere, I have been attending...............EVERY time, I came across a person or a few people who were the 'appointed' leaders of whatever fellowship, who would set about 'lording' it over the others, and often telling them untruths about our Lord, thus making them afraid of not listening tho THEM.
we are supposed to LOVE one another.....See 1 cor 13:1-3 Now tell me this is what you have found in those buildings ?

You're very concerned with people LORDING IT over other people.

Do you realize what a big responsibility it is to be a pastor?
I like to think that they're here to preach and TEACH the word of God.

Find one that you like and start enjoying going to Church.
It's what Jesus wanted.

And if you can't find one, just do the best you can.
Maybe you could find a home bible study?
We all need SOMETHING.

 

[amadeus]

i've found a couple, but it never seems to last

The Lord has led me to places at times in my life when I needed something I was not getting. The places were short-lived but nonetheless while I was there, I was given something good from God. I have been at my present location for longer than anywhere else but I am seeing that soon it also may be changed for me. God will lead us if we are willing to follow.

 

[bbyrd009]

amen!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well now, see........we are actually in agreement............What we do not agree on is your thought that Jesus, our Father and the Holy Spirit is somehow unable to take care of and teaching His own, but needs men who dress up in fancy robes and put themselves above others, to do His (work) for Him.............Be blessed in Him Pia

No - God is perfectly able to teach His flock in His Church.
He uses men to teach:
2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also".

God knows exactly what He is doing and has sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15). What the New Testament doesn't teach is Lone Ranger Christianity . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, there's some amount of truth in every Church. I mean the bldg.
Does any Church have ALL the truth? No.

Whereas, I agree with you on the first part - that there is truth in every Christian sect - the second part of your statement is wrong.

Eph. 1:22-23 tells us emphatically that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ - and He is truth itself.
Paul says in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

unfortunately you have been indoctrinated to believe that "Church" = "your church," and not the spiritual Church, of Living Stones, so you will die in your sins being as how you are irredeemably wrong, and are now just another accuser.

if you like, maybe we could all get together and pray for you here? it's never too late to find Christ BoL, and leave this self-worship thing you got going on

[6] Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt(IN Christ), that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

A Necessity of the Crucifixion.

something to consider, BoL, if you ever come back here after your reply to the above, as you have not read this part, almost surely. Best of luck to you though, i know how easy it is to consider yourself God, even though that is not how we rationalize it of course

 

[BreadOfLife]

unfortunately you have been indoctrinated to believe that "Church" = "your church," and not the spiritual Church, of Living Stones, so you will die in your sins being as how you are irredeemably wrong, and are now just another accuser.

Actually YOU and everybody else here has failed to show that there Church that Jesus built and the Apostles established is NOT the Catholic Church.

You have failed to show that there was another Church that exists to this day.

You have failed to show that when Jesus prayed that His Church remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE - that he really meant that it should be splintered into tens of thousands of disjointed pieces.

ONLY the Catholic Church can show its beginnings go all the way back to the First century.
No other Christian sect can make this claim historically . . .

Finally - it's not up to YOU to decide whether or not I will "die in my sins."
And you accuse ME of playing God . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

Whereas, I agree with you on the first part - that there is truth in every Christian sect - the second part of your statement is wrong.

Eph. 1:22-23 tells us emphatically that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ - and He is truth itself.
Paul says in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

BoL

I respect everyone's opinion that does not go against the Word of God.
I know that the C C teaches the word of God.

There are some problems there, however. ALL the truth is not even in the C C, which IS the original Church that can be traced back to the Apostles. I'm sorry if some here don't agree with that, but it's simple history.

Would you like me to list some "truths" the CC teaches that are not true?
I'm willing.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BoL

I respect everyone's opinion that does not go against the Word of God.
I know that the C C teaches the word of God.

There are some problems there, however. ALL the truth is not even in the C C, which IS the original Church that can be traced back to the Apostles. I'm sorry if some here don't agree with that, but it's simple history.

Would you like me to list some "truths" the CC teaches that are not true?
I'm willing.

Yes, please do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, please do.

I know about Tradition.
I know where ideas come from, that doesn't mean they're right.
Talking to the dead: Jesus never said to speak to dead persons, nor Paul or anyone else for that matter. I cannot remember any of the ECF that espoused this idea.
The C C also believes that one must be saved BEFORE dying -- so why say prayers for the dead? And how do we know they can hear us? Are they omnipresent as God is?
I do believe in the Communion of Saints as far as our being one large family.

We're taking Mary to an extreme position. She's already almost a co-redemptrix. She was AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS, not on it. One false teaching leads to another.
She was born without sin, so now it becomes necessary for her not to die and have her body disintegrate. So we have the Immaculate Conception and The Assmption. I believe the first could be accepted, but not the second. There is NO WAY to know this.

Original Sin. Babies are baptized to remove original sin. This means that God imputes Adam's sin into all of us. God does not impute Others sins to persons that did not commit them. This would not let God be a JUST God. We suffer from the EFFECT of orginal sin, but we are not imputed with original sin. I don't care to do the work, but there is scripture for this which I'm sure you know. And a lot of it is just the study of God, theology.

That brings us to Justification. How could I be justified if I don't accept God on my own?

There's more but that should suffice.

We have to accept that NO CHURCH is perfect. Not even the Church that was around at the time of Peter and Paul. This is because MEN have the sin nature and cannot live up to the expectation that would be necessary to have a pure church.

BTW, I love Mary and I love all my brothers in Christ.

 

[amadeus]

GodsGrace: Well, there's some amount of truth in every Church. I mean the bldg.
Does any Church have ALL the truth? No.

BreadOfLife: Whereas, I agree with you on the first part - that there is truth in every Christian sect - the second part of your statement is wrong.

Eph. 1:22-23 tells us emphatically that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ - and He is truth itself.
Paul says in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

The Church, however, is not the organized structure or framework, but rather is the people themselves. The foundation is Jesus himself.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Cor 3:11

The Church is the house built without hands on that foundation...

Jesus is without doubt the Head and for that role He completed His work by overcoming all of the temptations of men while here in the body of a man.

"... In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Jesus overcame the world, his own little world of temptations, but each of us to prepare ourselves to be a part of the Body, must also overcome.
Until we, all of us who will part of his Body, have overcome, the Body will be incomplete. The fullness speaks of the final completed Body of Christ subject to Head [Jesus] and fitted together by God so they also perfectly complement each other. It is described in short in these verses:

"For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." I Cor 12:24-27


Jesus said from the cross "It is finished" [John 19:30]. He had first overcome all of the obstacles in his own carnal life and then he went to the cross to make it possible for his Body to do the same. Until all of the parts of the Body have also overcome the world of their own flesh, the Body of Christ is incomplete. The work of the Body is to be greater than the work of Jesus himself according to his own words because it includes all of us [who are to be part] as well as Jesus himself.

The Body [Church] will not have all of the Spirit and knowledge that Jesus has until all parts are completed and properly connected to each other by means of the Holy Ghost. That there will be Catholics in the Body, there may be no doubt, but there will be others as well. The parts of the Body must be reconciled to one another as well as be subject to Jesus.

 

[Helen]

@perrero Well said!!