Will God's Forgiveness Save Anyone?

[Helen]

well, you have characterized it as a "ty" rather than an act of contrition, so i'm not sure how to answer there.

The thing is..what we have been 'told' that repentance means..and what it means is two different things.
Turn around....turn the other way...turn, change your mind...

I believe one of the biggest things we need to repent of is.. our image and view of Father God.
We have been sold a lemon, like Eve believed that God was lying, holding out on her and Adam with something more than they already were given..so 'ill eat of the fruit and 'gain' what God did not give me.' The serpent in essence said 'What a bad God...' And man echo's yes, what a harsh bad God...

When we finally see with our inner eyes , all that He has given us..all that Love did to bring us close to His heart....we fall on our knees and say THANK YOU FATHER....that is turning, that is changing our mind that is repentance ..and having His mind on the Truth of who God is.
Not all the Sunday school stuff "I stole a dollar from my mother", I hit my best friend, I cheated..etc etc...

 

[KBCid]

Jesus died on a cross(Capital Punishment) for the sins of all mankind,including you and me, because God the Father loved us all that much.

ummmm no!
There will be quite a bit of traffic going through the wide gate and I am quite sure that they will not be forgiven. The proper way to state what Christ did was to become the final sacrifice for those who "WOULD BE" saved.
And I would also point out that the Father loved the "world" and this does not mean just the humans in the world. The Father loved the creation that He and His Son made and the Son was sent to rescue / restore it to its original glory.

The punishment for our sins has been dished out with Jesus bearing the punishment in our place. We just have to accept this historic event as payment for our sins and accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord and we are on our way to Heaven. Jesus is our advocate before the Father. No better advocate then Jesus. So I am forgiven.

Christ has indeed born the punishment for those chosen to receive the gift of salvation but as is evident here;
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Apparently from Christ's perspective and according to his own words there is more required than the simple act of believing in his existence as the Savior.

"The salvation drive-thru is now closed"

 

[KBCid]

i understand that you cannot acknowledge much of Scripture right now, but "you will be judged by your works" exists nonetheless.
So, what we are doing here is basically avoiding a discussion, see, not having one.
Wadr could i get you to ignore me, until you are ready to at least acknowledge the Scripture--any kind of way--that you currently cannot? Or should i put you down for about two weeks from now, after the sting of cognitive dissonance has worn off here, and--you hope--this convo has dropped into obscurity once again? The usual, iow?

I am slain....
I give.....
You have killed me again....
There will be a report of your heinous acts on the next angel out.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

so you say, but i read "You will be judged by your works," and google can find my ref, but cannot find yours, see.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 KJV
[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



Just a thought: what works?

Matthew 7:22-23 KJV
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Judged by Christ work?
Or by your mans work (void of Spirit)?

 

[bbyrd009]

Or by your mans work (void of Spirit)?

well, good q, i guess we might first better define "works" if that is needed again here, as motive ("of the law") usually occludes the definition. Also, i'm not quite clear what "your" in there is to signify? ty

 

[bbyrd009]

I am slain....
I give.....
You have killed me again....
There will be a report of your heinous acts on the next angel out.

ha well, when it gets to the point that i am being told that i will be judged by something that Scripture does not agree i will be judged by, and the vice-versa cannot even be acknowledged, i just don't think i can add any more to that discussion, no offense meant to @H. Richard, who likely has a better heart than i do. And that is not false modesty, i am just a black-hearted guy.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

well, good q, i guess we might first better define "works" if that is needed again here, as motive ("of the law") usually occludes the definition. Also, i'm not quite clear what "your" in there is to signify? ty

well, good q, i guess we might first better define "works" if that is needed again here, as motive ("of the law") usually occludes the definition. Also, i'm not quite clear what "your" in there is to signify? ty

I am sorry. The "your" wasn't meant to be in there. Just "mans work".

It is interesting that these false ministers in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 mascarade as ministers of light. Scripture says they will be judged by their works.

Matthew 7:22-23 says: some will boast in their works saying: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To work inquity is to be flesh rather than born of God with a new Spirit. We make it difficult when it is simply: Man will either be judged (by the law) of his own works. As the ones in Matthew 7 who the Spirit(the Lord) does not know although they claim to be born of Spirit.

Or a man will be judged by Christ work.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am sorry. The "your" wasn't meant to be in there. Just "mans work".

It is interesting that these false ministers in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 mascarade as ministers of light. Scripture says they will be judged by their works.

Matthew 7:22-23 says: some will boast in their works saying: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To work inquity is to be flesh rather than born of God with a new Spirit. We make it difficult when it is simply: Man will either be judged (by the law) of his own works. As the ones in Matthew 7 who the Spirit(the Lord) does not know although they claim to be born of Spirit.

Or a man will be judged by Christ work.

No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins shall die

Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Work while you have the light

the demons also believe

so, i can't help but be minded of Jesus cults and Nehushtan worship by your ending here, although i may be misunderstanding.
So, to be perfectly clear, i will say that many believers of Jesus will be in hell, believing will not save you

imo

 

[H. Richard]

so then, corrected this will read

"Let us hold fast the profession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful."

iow confession is not even addressed in this, unless one chooses to believe that it has been

***

So if you don't like he words used just change them to suit your ideas. In fact the word profession is just as good as confession. I do wish you would buy a dictionary.

profession = a profession of faith, Check it out!!!!!! A discussion with you is like talking to a fence post.

Since you do not believe the following verse which one of the words would you like to change?
Col 1:13-15
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[bbyrd009]

So if you don't like he words used just change them to suit your ideas.

ah, that actually comes right from the Lex, sorry if i got lazy there. Oh, wait, i gave the Lex, and you just didn't look to verify that my translation was accurate, i guess? If you have a better rebuttal in this light, i understand, go for it

In fact the word profession is just as good as confession.

well, naturally it would be, right, to someone who needs profession to = confession; yet Scripture separates them, where you do not, wadr.

I do wish you would buy a dictionary.

imagine how i feel, lol.

profession = a profession of faith, Check it out!!!!!!

that is exactly the point, HR. Professions of faith are not confessions of sin, and do not save. Now you got it. If i need to be the fencepost in this scenario, then so be it, i am fine with that.

Since you do not believe the following verse which one of the words would you like to change?

how bout we get clear on who changed what above before we dive into some new hairball ok, no offense. None of this is salvational HR, as long as you understand the need for confession i guess, which is. I think you are a great person who seeks Christ ok, and despite all of the confusion being preached by those who should be cleaning toilets or whatever, imo you will find simply because you seek.

 

[bbyrd009]

Since you do not believe the following verse which one of the words would you like to change?
Col 1:13-15
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

but to answer your intent here, i would not change the words, but rather how they are understood, as Adam and Eve still needing a skin even though they were forgiven plainly illustrates, imo.

See they were forgiven too, but it did not help them any; they still had a problem. God did not.

 

[H. Richard]

but to answer your intent here, i would not change the words, but rather how they are understood, as Adam and Eve still needing a skin even though they were forgiven plainly illustrates, imo.

See they were forgiven too, but it did not help them any; they still had a problem. God did not.

***

You have received what some believe and have rejected their belief system but you haven't spend very much time articulating what you believe so how about doing that. When do you confess, how many times do you confess. If you are not caught up in your confessions are you going to the hot place, etc. I know nothing about what you believe. This is your chance to shine, take it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins shall die

Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Work while you have the light

the demons also believe

so, i can't help but be minded of Jesus cults and Nehushtan worship by your ending here, although i may be misunderstanding.
So, to be perfectly clear, i will say that many believers of Jesus will be in hell, believing will not save you

imo

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


What does blameless mean to you? How is it possible to be blameless?

Hebrews 6:1 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

What does Hebrews 6:1 mean?

 

[bbyrd009]

but you haven't spend very much time articulating what you believe so how about doing that.

i believe my beliefs are mostly impediments to my connection with everyone else on the planet, and i note that satan's belief in Jesus will not avail him either. As my neighbor, your beliefs impact me not a whit; i could care less what you believe. it is your works that i will judge, because it is those that i will be impacted by.

When do you confess, how many times do you confess.

certainly not twice.

If you are not caught up in your confessions are you going to the hot place, etc.

ha well if i am not confessing the moment my shortcoming is revealed to me, like a little kid does, then i am going to get "roasted" by my peers anyway, right. So iow "caught up in my confessions," by which i assume you mean "all caught up" and not "unduly enmeshed in," becomes a mechanism that does not even apply, see. "All caught up with your confessions?" is a religious thing that has no application in the kingdom iow; it is a beloved ritual that is a counterfeit of the real thing.

I know nothing about what you believe.

oh, i believe that Eve had sex with a Neandertal, even though we observe that animals pretty strictly mate with only their own specific kind, but we all know how freaky monkeys are, so anyway Eve's innocent lust overcame her natural inhibitions--so prevalent that we might call them "commands"--about having sex with another species, and the resulting hybrid gave us forebrains, or free will, just like God knew would happen, and i guess i could go on for the rest of the day about my beliefs lol, and i can certainly back them up with Scripture of course, although we could prolly spend the rest of the day debating that just on this one belief, right.

Notice how "beliefs"--the way we are defining them at present--are unerringly, always, always, always, about something that happened yesterday, or will happen tomorrow? How relevant is the "belief" that i outlined just now going to be to you? Prolly if anything it serves more to divide us than bring us together, right?

So in a way that i guess i am just not going to be able to make much clearer right now than that above, see how beliefs are irrelevant, and likely even do more harm than good? So then, my beliefs now are really "i don't know," and it should be stressed there that i am not looking to know any longer, because i used to know, and it did not serve me.

Now if you believe that Eve ate an apple from a literal tree and surprised God, and that Adam and Eve did not have navels, too, well now i can agree, see, because i do not know, whereas before i would have "had to" correct you prolly lol, and when i was done neither of us still would have known anything on the matter, except that we now had a wall between us there.

 

[bbyrd009]

What does blameless mean to you? How is it possible to be blameless?

hmm. Babies soil diapers, but we don't blame them. Little kids color outside the lines, or, i have a shot of Calvin "helping" his dad that i like to use here, "boy will dad be stoked that i got this board all nailed up for him..." hmm, that i have let get away, but the point is that Calvin was of course not helping dad any, but even dad is not going to blame him now, is he. Ok well if he is an American Dad he might, but see the point, right

So we go looking for a perfect definition of "blameless," when no one is blameless, and no one is ever going to be; it is really about forgiveness, not blamelessness iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

which practically speaking we know can only be logically accomplished one way, that being to sit very still in a room, and have your food pushed under the door for you, right

 

[bbyrd009]

What does Hebrews 6:1 mean?

"recognize when it is time to leave church, along about the 5000th time you have heard the sin/death message being preached, and you realize that you have built your foundation and you are ready to go on to grace, a harder lesson."

confession/rebound is actually pretty basic, even if few people ever get to a place where it is easy for them, due to lack of self-esteem or whatever. An analogue might be an adult, struggling with not breaking in to other peoples' homes or something. Iow a non-issue for most mature people.

Giving the guy who broke in to your home your shirt after he has stolen your coat, now that is a whole 'nother level, right.
(You would have to get with...a Stranger to determine what caliber Jesus would shoot at the thief in that case, as i am not fam with that gospel myself)

 

[bbyrd009]

Hebrews 6:1 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

"Therefore once you get that confession as soon as you blow it leads to salvation, and not trying to be a perfectionist, understand that repeated apologies for the same offense are also pointless; it is rebound--no longer doing that offense--that demonstrates truth, not a fresh apology every day for a sin committed yesterday." Don't be obsequious, iow, yuck.

 

[bbyrd009]

iow it should become obvious that once i have grasped the mechanism of confession/rebound, i do not need another sermon on what am i ever to do, should i happen to sin again today. Which the church occludes--because after all they got a bidness to run--so you got a bunch of people convinced they are saved, who nonetheless are oblivious to when they have offended someone, and are incapable of apologizing, because that would be an admission of sin, and who wants to admit sin? Sin is bad, sin is what lost people do, and i am saved, therefore i cannot sin. Yikes.
Those people are right where they need to be, iow. Re-laying the foundation, over and over.

 

[amadeus]

Hebrews 6:1 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

What does Hebrews 6:1 mean?

I look then also to the next two verses:
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

When we have gotten or even while we are getting the foundation of repentance from dead works to go on toward the perfection, we need to understand in our hearts as well those other doctrines of:
1) baptisms
2) laying on of hands
3) resurrection of the dead
4) eternal judgment

We do need to be able to get past our dead works to go on to the next steps. But, when we like the Israelites of old need to day after day bring new sacrifices for the same old sins repeatedly, we will never move beyond that outer court. God already knew it made it so for those natural Israelites. Only the sons of Aaron could go past the first veil, where likely we would find one or more of the other four doctrines. What the common people were not allowed to do them, we are now allowed to do and even empowered to do if we will... This is the road to perfection along which Jesus said to go to accomplish that impossible thing: becoming perfect.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Each of those four doctrines are simple and/or complex, I guess dependent on where we are and how completely we are willing to surrender for it sure won't come to us simply by studying and learning.

Baptism is simple, right? Be immersed in water; be immersed in the Holy Spirit. But what about fire, body and death? The scripture also mentions each of those. Are they additional or do the clarify the others.

Laying on of hands? They ordained some into the ministry thereby. They healed some of physical problems thereby. But did they not do it with regard to the Holy Ghost? Sometimes we are not supposed to touch someone or something. To do so could or would make us unclean. Spiritually when should we lay hands [not necessarily physical hands] on someone when should we keep our hands off?

Resurrection of the dead, but who is dead? All of us were when we were born to our natural/carnal mother, but then when was it that we moved out or became a "Living Soul"? When does anyone cease to be dead?

Eternal judgment. I won't even attempt to touch this here as it still eludes me other than in shadows. I have a ton of scriptures regarding it but... that is like we all have all of the Bible. How can we explain it all in short?