Will God's Forgiveness Save Anyone?

[mjrhealth]

Jesus told us to be perfect. This was not an idle statement. It is something that God wants us to do, but most people [believers?] have simply written it off saying in effect that it is impossible: No man can be perfect.

Funny thing is. when I first became a Christian, and HE was teaching me stuff, a prophetess from the church, said to me, He wants you to learn about David, so go read about Him,, so I did, all of Kings all I could find, one day when I was in church she asked me, well have you learned anything,? And I said, after all that treading I still dont know, and at that very moment He showed me, " David Loved God and was not perfect". made my walk with Him a good deal easier, no more trying to perfect myself, you know what it says about David , even with all that He did.

Act_13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Ill just follow after God.

 

[amadeus]

Funny thing is. when I first became a Christian, and HE was teaching me stuff, a prophetess from the church, said to me, He wants you to learn about David, so go read about Him,, so I did, all of Kings all I could find, one day when I was in church she asked me, well have you learned anything,? And I said, after all that treading I still dont know, and at that very moment He showed me, " David Loved God and was not perfect". made my walk with Him a good deal easier, no more trying to perfect myself, you know what it says about David , even with all that He did.

Act_13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Ill just follow after God.

What God calls perfect is not what man calls perfect.

What God calls perfect He has provided the means for us to attain. The perfection I believe is not in the fullness of our brain with scripture and doctrine, but the willingness of our heart to receive whatever He wants to put in there and to do whatever He asks us to do. Can we hold more? Can we do more? As much as we will allow for there is surely no limit on God's part. If there were not enough room or ability, could not God increase us as needed?

 

[mjrhealth]

What God calls perfect He has provided the means for us to attain. The perfection I believe is not in the fullness of our brain with scripture and doctrine, but the willingness of our heart to receive whatever He wants to put in there. Can we hold more? As much as we will allow. If there were not enough room, could not God enlarge us to hold even more?

Oh we will be perfect in His time, " and in teh twinkling of an eye we will all be changed". My dad once had God filling Him with knowledge, He had to ask Him to stop, it was like he was going to explode, our pathetic minds simply dont have teh capacity to even grasp teh simple things in God, but in teh spirit all things are possible, that is why we are called to walk after teh Spirit and not the flesh.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh we will be perfect in His time, " and in teh twinkling of an eye we will all be changed".

ya, prolly you just really want that to be true, i guess. We are all changed in that manner already, at least mind-wise, right?

 

[mjrhealth]

ya, prolly you just really want that to be true, i guess. We are all changed in that manner already, at least mind-wise, right?

completely, God is efficient He doesnt waste.

 

[twinc]

completely, God is efficient He doesnt waste.

so there we have it or may be not yet with more to come no doubt - but it dawned on me a while ago
but I keep forgetting and get drawn into this endless merry go round of really getting nowhere even if I change horses an endless merry go round when the answer is simple do not go round and round but simply simply believe or commit the unforgiveable sin = unforgiveable because unrepented imho - twinc

 

[mjrhealth]

so there we have it or may be not yet with more to come no doubt - but it dawned on me a while ago
but I keep forgetting and get drawn into this endless merry go round of really getting nowhere even if I change horses an endless merry go round when the answer is simple do not go round and round but simply simply believe or commit the unforgiveable sin = unforgiveable because unrepented imho - twinc

?? so you are going around again, just be carefull you may get dizzy and fall off.

 

[bbyrd009]

When do you confess, how many times do you confess.

certainly not twice.

of course "sorry about your luck" is no confession at all; if the matter was raised again by the offended party, i would have to assume that the amends were not sufficient, and i would proceed from there, i spose

 

[bbyrd009]

Eternal judgment. I won't even attempt to touch this here as it still eludes me other than in shadows.

imo forgiving someone who thinks they have done nothing wrong, even after repeated witnesses have testified to their error, is revealing there. The difference being that now the unrepentant sinner can just run and hide behind their ego wall, but then that will not serve them, because the truth will be obvious. Hell is yourself, revealed in others' eyes iow.

 

[amadeus]

imo forgiving someone who thinks they have done nothing wrong, even after repeated witnesses have testified to their error, is revealing there.

Would God forgive a person who did not first recognize that he had done wrong?

The difference being that now the unrepentant sinner can just run and hide behind their ego wall, but then that will not serve them, because the truth will be obvious. Hell is yourself, revealed in others' eyes iow.

There is the one who is aware of specific sins he has committed and refuses to repent. But then there is the who has sinned but is unaware that he has sinned. Both could be called unrepentant sinners, but former is stewing in his own juices, while the latter is still in a state of ignorance. In the OT under the law given to Moses, the premeditated sinner was cut off from his people, whereas the ignorant sinner when he became aware of his sin could receive atonement through sacrifice.

Does this have to do with "eternal judgment"? An eternal judgment against a person is one that is never rescinded. The sentence is handed down and is irrevocable.

For those who completed their course here without ever receiving Life from Jesus they have dictated their own final irrevocable judgment.

For those who complete their course here and did receive Life the question many raise is can the person ever lose that Life? A question which might help us understand the answer might be: Did Adam and Eve already have Life before they ate of the forbidden tree? We know that when they ate of that tree they died, so it would seem that they were alive. They were also defiled and so until and if they could become undefiled, God would not allow them to approach and eat the Tree of Life.

Since Adam and Eve had Life beforehand and died, it would seem that anyone who is born again or born from above would have the same opportunity as they did to eat again of the wrong tree defiling themselves again in the eyes of God. This might be what scripture calls the second death. The first death was the death of Adam and Eve when they ate from the wrong tree. All of their offspring which includes us were born to dead parents so we also were dead.

Foe one who is included in this second death, the judgment is final or eternal. It is irrevocable. To avoid this second death a person must overcome...

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev 2:11

 

[H. Richard]

Yes, and I believe that not only the clues but also the answers are in the scriptures. The problem is finding the clues and understanding them and following the clues then to answers and understanding them. It is all very simple to God. Is He willing to share it all with us? This is why we must, I believe follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in this as in all things.

Jesus told us to be perfect. This was not an idle statement. It is something that God wants us to do, but most people [believers?] have simply written it off saying in effect that it is impossible: No man can be perfect.

***

The scriptures also tel us that with man it is impossible. Are you saying you disagree with scriptures even if the words were spoken by Jesus????

Matt 19:23-26----- With God All Things Are Possible (Mark 10:23-31; Luke 18:24-30)
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

Would God forgive a person who did not first recognize that he had done wrong?

ah, that does seem to be a very good, unanswered question, ya.

my reply right now would be yes, they are forgiven, but that forgiveness will not help them if it is not accepted.

 

[bbyrd009]

Does this have to do with "eternal judgment"? An eternal judgment against a person is one that is never rescinded. The sentence is handed down and is irrevocable.

For those who completed their course here without ever receiving Life from Jesus they have dictated their own final irrevocable judgment.

this is hard to square with "forgive seventy times seven, as long as they keep coming and confessing and asking forgiveness," so i am led to believe that there is a practical reason for this--iow it is just a fact of life in a reality where time does not exist or something, not necessarily a literal "judgement" as in "no forgiveness after this point right here."

what i have noticed that strikes me as a corollary is forgiving someone for an offense who does not feel they offended, and therefore they do not accept the forgiveness. Although there are surely others. Of course you then get to learn whether you really forgave them or not, etc, but when you get it right--assuming you do at some point--it still may not matter to the offender, even if you bring witnesses etc.

 

[amadeus]

@H.Richard

Amadeus said:
Yes, and I believe that not only the clues but also the answers are in the scriptures. The problem is finding the clues and understanding them and following the clues then to answers and understanding them. It is all very simple to God. Is He willing to share it all with us? This is why we must, I believe follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in this as in all things.

Jesus told us to be perfect. This was not an idle statement. It is something that God wants us to do, but most people [believers?] have simply written it off saying in effect that it is impossible: No man can be perfect.

H. Richard said: The scriptures also tel us that with man it is impossible. Are you saying you disagree with scriptures even if the words were spoken by Jesus????

Matt 19:23-26----- With God All Things Are Possible (Mark 10:23-31; Luke 18:24-30)
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
NKJV

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

And the apostle Paul wrote:

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Looks to me like God is in us so if we are not quench the Holy Spirit in us, what would be impossible for that Holy Spirit in us? It is to the man of flesh without God that it is impossible. But for God in us nothing is impossible, if we will let Him work. When we say we cannot do it while we are in this flesh, it is we who are limiting God by our lack of faith as they did in the OT:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: Does this have to do with "eternal judgment"? An eternal judgment against a person is one that is never rescinded. The sentence is handed down and is irrevocable.

For those who completed their course here without ever receiving Life from Jesus they have dictated their own final irrevocable judgment.

bbyrd009 said:
this is hard to square with "forgive seventy times seven, as long as they keep coming and confessing and asking forgiveness," so i am led to believe that there is a practical reason for this--iow it is just a fact of life in a reality where time does not exist or something, not necessarily a literal "judgement" as in "no forgiveness after this point right here."

The seventy times seven relates to limited man who is unable to see a man's heart and therefore should continue to forgive him and give him additional chances. Perhaps one of those times, the person will learn and truly repent. With God who sees every man's heart and knows that the man will or will not learn from his experience, we have a different situation. Consider King Saul who disobeyed God several times. The prophet Samuel was mourning for him because he still had hope that Saul would finally learn and start to do things right. God then spoke to Samuel:

"And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons." I Sam 16:1

Samuel alone could not completely reject Saul and say that the man had not more hope, but God could... and if God tells us to do the same it would be wise to do so. If we are not hearing God's voice on a matter against another person, we had best hold our tongue with our final judgments until and if we do hear.

bbyrd009 said: what i have noticed that strikes me as a corollary is forgiving someone for an offense who does not feel they offended, and therefore they do not accept the forgiveness. Although there are surely others. Of course you then get to learn whether you really forgave them or not, etc, but when you get it right--assuming you do at some point--it still may not matter to the offender, even if you bring witnesses etc.

Seems like these verses fit the situation:

"I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matt 25:43-46

They did not understand that they had offended the Lord by failing to minister onto these people in need, but... as we see.
What is needed for a believer to avoid that kind of result is to check in with God regularly. Remember the unnamed prophet who came out of Judah to King Jeroboam and then died because he took the old prophet's word instead of checking with God before changing God's orders? [I Kings 13]

 

[bbyrd009]

Remember the unnamed prophet who came out of Judah to King Jeroboam and then died because he took the old prophet's word instead of checking with God before changing God's orders? [I Kings 1]

yes, this is another one, very apropos, but also hard to put oneself in, so to speak. Imo these are harder to get because we have no clear reference from which to perceive--iow am i the 1st prophet here, or the 2nd? Or the servant?

 

[amadeus]

yes, this is another one, very apropos, but also hard to put oneself in, so to speak. Imo these are harder to get because we have no clear reference from which to perceive--iow am i the 1st prophet here, or the 2nd? Or the servant?

The first prophet had it all right while he was obeying God. When he believed the second prophet [the old one] without questioning the change was he not similar to Eve listening the serpent who effectively was changing or denying the validity of what God said? When we receive a significant change we had best be certain of the source of that change.

God does make changes as for example with Abraham when with the knife actually raised to kill his son a voice told him not to do it.

What voices are we hearing and obeying or not? Consider what Jesus said:

"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:2-5

People are quick to group themselves with the sheep of the shepherd, Jesus, but are they really sheep always or are they sometimes rather in the role of a goat? Do we move back and forth between a sheep mode and a goat mode? If we do, what can we or should we do about it?

 

[bbyrd009]

The first prophet had it all right while he was obeying God. When he believed the second prophet [the old one] without questioning the change was he not similar to Eve listening the serpent who effectively was changing or denying the validity of what God said?

nice, and the "bury me with him?" what about that?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do we move back and forth between a sheep mode and a goat mode? If we do, what can we or should we do about it?

ya, seems like we do, at least in a certain season? And from personal experience i can say that i have tried denial there, and i have tried works there, too, but for me it somehow became a lesson in forgiveness, forgiving others. I should say "has become," because i am still doing this one; it is hard for me to keep forgiveness from becoming licentiousness iow.

 

[amadeus]

ya, seems like we do, at least in a certain season? And from personal experience i can say that i have tried denial there, and i have tried works there, too, but for me it somehow became a lesson in forgiveness, forgiving others. I should say "has become," because i am still doing this one; it is hard for me to keep forgiveness from becoming licentiousness iow.

Hey so have I done it and probably most, if not all, believers have done the same thing. Not admitting it is I believe a serious problem. Latching onto something like OSAS can put a person way out on a limb with some guy sawing it off close to the trunk. Might he not be taking on a delusion to make himself believe the road is easier than it is? People going that direction should consider these verses carefully:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

If we do not really love the truth [whatever it is] we are likely going to find ourselves in our lukewarm state taking hold of a delusion which is a lie.

Loving the truth does not mean loving only or without flexibility the doctrines I already hold. It means loving all of the truth including any part of it that I do not yet possess or understand, even if some of those unseen parts might be diametrically opposed to what I already believe sincerely.

There really is an easier road we can take, but it lies in always taking the road with all that we have and all that we are. Many years ago the man who effectively won me to the Lord by the witness of his own life told me these words:

"It is easy to live for God hard, but it is hard to live for God easy." It is not scripture but it relates closely to these verses:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

People want to keep one foot in the world so as to enjoy certain things that are very attractive to them. If this for them is not quite "lukewarm", it certainly borders on it. So easy to slip away from our hot place in God to that lukewarm place.

The truth is that God made the natural planet Earth "very good" and He gave men dominion over it so that they could enjoy it. Unfortunately men like some things too much or they often do not want to enjoy things only in the Way which God has prescribed. Is it really more fun to break the rules?

To move on forward in a more definite [and faster?] way requires us to work as hard at it as we can and surrender to God as completely as we can as much of the time as we can.

When we cannot do it as we should we look to the scriptures and ask God for help:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

Ask God to help us do the impossible.