Will God's Forgiveness Save Anyone?

[bbyrd009]

that there are "four" doctrines there should be a clue as to their nature, also

 

[amadeus]

that there are "four" doctrines there should be a clue as to their nature, also

Yes, and I believe that not only the clues but also the answers are in the scriptures. The problem is finding the clues and understanding them and following the clues then to answers and understanding them. It is all very simple to God. Is He willing to share it all with us? This is why we must, I believe follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in this as in all things.

Jesus told us to be perfect. This was not an idle statement. It is something that God wants us to do, but most people [believers?] have simply written it off saying in effect that it is impossible: No man can be perfect.

 

[bbyrd009]

...most people [believers?] have simply written it off saying in effect that it is impossible: No man can be perfect.

which is of course literally true in a sense; even if it is not the point. So then preachers get to preach that, and let everyone off the proverbial hook, and lookie now we have hyper-grace, for Hitler even i guess lol.

 

[ScottA]

i'd like to stay on God's forgiveness here, as this seems to be a central plank in the hyper-grace movement, and i'm trying to better understand @H. Richard 's position, which he does not wish to be included in Universal Reconciliation, for reasons that are not clear to me.

As near as i can gather, a popular...belief now is that if one "really, really" believes, all of their sins are forgiven, and their works will not be judged, i guess? And they do not have to rebound from sin any longer either, as near as i can tell. We have some others here who might explain the position better, surely, but as near as i can tell the word "faith" is kind of supplanted by "belief," and the "really, really" part does not imply any action.

There are some other tenets of this that i don't get either, but a central theme seems to be that because God has forgiven them--at profession i guess?--they are now "saved," and OSAS no doubt too, although i am guessing there.

The world as we know it was created as a place in which to apply God's judgement and to demon'strate His great love and, yes, forgiveness.

But, what is not easily perceived from our perspective, is that all of it was done on God's timeline, which is no timeline at all...but, as it has best been described for our understanding: "in the twinkling of an eye." Which is to say...there is no long drawn out time or "process" to us being saved or condemned. But rather, He has written out, via His own created media, just how we all come and came to be who we are in that twinkling of an eye. This world, is our life and choice passing before our eyes. Our life and times are a witness against our own selves.

What does that look like?

You're / we're looking at it.

But from His eternal and timeless twinkling of an eye perspective - BAM! and "It is finished."

Which...also explains the big bang theory...

 

[bbyrd009]

then i am going to get "roasted" by my peers anyway, right.

 

[KBCid]

Jesus told us to be perfect. This was not an idle statement. It is something that God wants us to do, but most people [believers?] have simply written it off saying in effect that it is impossible: No man can be perfect.

Those who assert that it is impossible are essentially denying that Christ came in the flesh. Christ's mission was to be our example in that he "A MAN" was able to attain perfection while existing in a body of flesh because he had God as his helper in the same manner as we can have the HS as our helper to guide our steps.

John 14:10 ....The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Christ showed us how we could achieve what the flesh alone could not attain to. By having God with us then we would be capable of following the path correctly..... this is the meaning of Immanuel.... God with us.

 

[bbyrd009]

The world as we know it was created as a place in which to apply God's judgement and to demon'strate His great love and, yes, forgiveness.

But, what is not easily perceived from our perspective, is that all of it was done on God's timeline, which is no timeline at all...but, as it has best been described for our understanding: "in the twinkling of an eye." Which is to say...there is no long drawn out time or "process" to us being saved or condemned. But rather, He has written out, via His own created media, just how we all come and came to be who we are in that twinkling of an eye. This world, is our life and choice passing before our eyes. Our life and times are a witness against our own selves.

What does that look like?

You're / we're looking at it.

But from His eternal and timeless twinkling of an eye perspective - BAM! and "It is finished."

Which...also explains the big bang theory...

hmm, that is quite interesting, i use "twinkling of an eye" differently, as well as "it is finished," but i like these perspectives too.

 

[Helen]

iow it should become obvious that once i have grasped the mechanism of confession/rebound, i do not need another sermon on what am i ever to do, should i happen to sin again today. Which the church occludes--because after all they got a bidness to run--so you got a bunch of people convinced they are saved, who nonetheless are oblivious to when they have offended someone, and are incapable of apologizing, because that would be an admission of sin, and who wants to admit sin? Sin is bad, sin is what lost people do, and i am saved, therefore i cannot sin. Yikes.
Those people are right where they need to be, iow. Re-laying the foundation, over and over.

I think you would make a good Catholic lol

 

[amadeus]

Those who assert that it is impossible are essentially denying that Christ came in the flesh. Christ's mission was to be our example in that he "A MAN" was able to attain perfection while existing in a body of flesh because he had God as his helper in the same manner as we can have the HS as our helper to guide our steps.

John 14:10 ....The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Christ showed us how we could achieve what the flesh alone could not attain to. By having God with us then we would be capable of following the path correctly..... this is the meaning of Immanuel.... God with us.

Amen to that!

And people wonder why they do not see what they call the church doing what they believe the Church should be doing. When people deny the power that God sent to them by means of the sacrifice of His Son, what else should they expect?

 

[bbyrd009]

I think you would make a good Catholic lol

ha well i didn't mean that the way it sounded; i really mean that people in that state are where they need to be. I gotta believe that you meant that somewhat tic lol, but i was Pentecostal for a lot of years, and the two are quite similar. i learned a lot in those years.

 

[Helen]

ha well i didn't mean that the way it sounded; i really mean that people in that state are where they need to be. I gotta believe that you meant that somewhat tic lol, but i was Pentecostal for a lot of years, and the two are quite similar. i learned a lot in those years.

Ive been a mixture of many.
First in the Brethren church where my dad was a preacher.
The we moved house and dad became a Methodist preacher.
Then when I became a believing-believer...I was in a Holiness Temperance Mission. THEN after 10 years we joined the Charismatic Movement and became "holy rollers" Started our own church meetings.
Then we joined a very large ( world wide) movement ...which was a Sonship movement. At that point we "left the world" and went into the deep north into the wilderness ...75 miles off the highway going to Alaska. No electric, no telephones, and many times very little food...( 78 of us living in wood cabins, eating together in the meeting house) BTW, it did not make us holy...we left the world, but the world did not leave us..we learned that "the world" is inward not outward!!
Then, we again started our own meetings for a while.
Then we opted OUT of "church"altogether. And have been out for 20 yrs now.
I now know much more about what I DO NOT believe! LOL

 

[H. Richard]

i believe my beliefs are mostly impediments to my connection with everyone else on the planet, and i note that satan's belief in Jesus will not avail him either. As my neighbor, your beliefs impact me not a whit; i could care less what you believe. it is your works that i will judge, because it is those that i will be impacted by.

certainly not twice.
ha well if i am not confessing the moment my shortcoming is revealed to me, like a little kid does, then i am going to get "roasted" by my peers anyway, right. So iow "caught up in my confessions," by which i assume you mean "all caught up" and not "unduly enmeshed in," becomes a mechanism that does not even apply, see. "All caught up with your confessions?" is a religious thing that has no application in the kingdom iow; it is a beloved ritual that is a counterfeit of the real thing.

oh, i believe that Eve had sex with a Neandertal, even though we observe that animals pretty strictly mate with only their own specific kind, but we all know how freaky monkeys are, so anyway Eve's innocent lust overcame her natural inhibitions--so prevalent that we might call them "commands"--about having sex with another species, and the resulting hybrid gave us forebrains, or free will, just like God knew would happen, and i guess i could go on for the rest of the day about my beliefs lol, and i can certainly back them up with Scripture of course, although we could prolly spend the rest of the day debating that just on this one belief, right.

Notice how "beliefs"--the way we are defining them at present--are unerringly, always, always, always, about something that happened yesterday, or will happen tomorrow? How relevant is the "belief" that i outlined just now going to be to you? Prolly if anything it serves more to divide us than bring us together, right?

So in a way that i guess i am just not going to be able to make much clearer right now than that above, see how beliefs are irrelevant, and likely even do more harm than good? So then, my beliefs now are really "i don't know," and it should be stressed there that i am not looking to know any longer, because i used to know, and it did not serve me.

Now if you believe that Eve ate an apple from a literal tree and surprised God, and that Adam and Eve did not have navels, too, well now i can agree, see, because i do not know, whereas before i would have "had to" correct you prolly lol, and when i was done neither of us still would have known anything on the matter, except that we now had a wall between us there.

***

I see that you do not even know what you believe. I asked you to describe what you believed about "confession" and you could not do it. That is because IMO you reject what that word means. You have previously rejected that the words belief, faith, trust, and confidence mean the same thing and can be used to define each other. IMO you do not want to know it.

It is obvious, to me, that you do not believe anything in the Bibles either since you have to make up a sex story about Eve when it is obvious that Eve believed Satan rather than God. You reject that meaning too.

But you are wrong about me. I know what I believe, have faith in, trust in, and have confidence in and it is not in me. It is in God who accomplished the impossible on the cross.
Matt 19:25-26
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
NKJV

Mark 10:26-27
26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, "Who then can be saved?"
27 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."
NKJV

Luke 18:26-27
26 And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?"
27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
NKJV

God made it possible for sinners to be saved in spite of their sins when He atoned for them on the cross. It is a person's belief, faith, trust,and confidence in God's work on the cross that saves a person. But you insist on confession and can not tell what confession means. LOL

The scripture is clear, what is it that overcomes the world?
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

But since you don't know what faith means you certainly can't understand the scripture about faith, IMO.

I am not spending much time on this forum at this time since you are the only one that is in a decussion with me. I have other things to do.

 

[ScottA]

Ive been a mixture of many.
First in the Brethren church where my dad was a preacher.
The we moved house and dad became a Methodist preacher.
Then when I became a believing-believer...I was in a Holiness Temperance Mission. THEN after 10 years we joined the Charismatic Movement and became "holy rollers" Started our own church meetings.
Then we joined a very large ( world wide) movement ...which was a Sonship movement. At that point we "left the world" and went into the deep north into the wilderness ...75 miles off the highway going to Alaska. No electric, no telephones, and many times very little food...( 78 of us living in wood cabins, eating together in the meeting house) BTW, it did not make us holy...we left the world, but the world did not leave us..we learned that "the world" is inward not outward!!
Then, we again started our own meetings for a while.
Then we opted OUT of "church"altogether. And have been out for 20 yrs now.
I now know much more about what I DO NOT believe! LOL

That's amazing! ...And you seem so "normal." Glad you made it out'o the woods!

 

[Helen]

That's amazing! ...And you seem so "normal." Glad you made it out'o the woods!

Not so sure about the normal thing. But I must admit when I see what some people believe I find I am indeed more 'normal'. Lets say, more normal than some I did miss out in my 'list' that back in the late 70's we were involved in the Deliverance Ministry for a few years. So most things "christian" been that done that.
Plus 'heard' most things...not much new.
I did think that I had "heard it all" until last week I saw someone on here say that "the Holy Spirit WAS/IS the Bible".....That I admit was a new one to me...and I had thought that I had 'heard it all.' lol

 

[bbyrd009]

I see that you do not even know what you believe.

ah, is that all you got from that?

I asked you to describe what you believed about "confession" and you could not do it.

so you say, but at least you are now aware of the difference in profession and confession, right

That is because IMO you reject what that word means.

hmm, turning it into profession seems to me an effective way of doing that. Confession and profession are certainly similar, and can even mean the same thing, like faith and belief, but the difference is only revealed in "demons believe, too" or a similar contrast. Fwiw i understand if you want profession to mean confession, ok; lots of people seem to need "belief" to = "faith" nowadays, too. i'll adjust. Nation means country now, tra-la.

You have previously rejected that the words belief, faith, trust, and confidence mean the same thing and can be used to define each other.

ah; is that all you got from that? Are you sure i rejected this? Because i'm pretty sure i took pains to clarify that they could be used to define each other

It is obvious, to me, that you do not believe anything in the Bibles either since you have to make up a sex story about Eve when it is obvious that Eve believed Satan rather than God. You reject that meaning too.

well then you missed the point again, maybe that was just for someone else. My beliefs in that area really do run along the lines of "i don't know" now, and fwiw i am hardly the first to interpret a seduction of Eve in that story.

But you are wrong about me.

i don't recall commenting about you, tbh, except to say once or twice that i would not be surprised if your heart was better than mine. where am i wrong about you?

God made it possible for sinners to be saved in spite of their sins when He atoned for them on the cross.

over a million slaves walked through the Passover door and left Egypt Free Men, too; but only two of them made it to the Promised Land, HR. And if you are uncomfortable with this analogy, then you don't have to consider it ok, but that does not mean that it is no longer in Scripture

But you insist on confession and can not tell what confession means. LOL

say something once, why say it again? I'm pretty sure i mostly filled a page with the examples of valid confession, and did another half page on the diff in that and profession. Like Passover/Wander/Promised Land, they will still be around tomorrow, so it isn't that big a deal imo

But since you don't know what faith means you certainly can't understand the scripture about faith, IMO.

I am not spending much time on this forum at this time since you are the only one that is in a decussion with me.

ah, you think we have been having a discussion? hmm.

I have other things to do.

ok, best of luck to you.

 

[bbyrd009]

I see that you do not even know

you'll have to pardon me, i'm still new enough to...this side of a convo that it's taken me until last night in bed to realize that whenever you speak to me you are involved in a life or death struggle to determine who is right, so to speak. Or who is telling the truth; or maybe even who is saved. Not sure how you might put it. And i am not involved in this struggle, ok; i do not even know what i am talking about. be well

 

[amadeus]

you'll have to pardon me, i'm still new enough to...this side of a convo that it's taken me until last night in bed to realize that you are involved in a life or death struggle to determine who is right, so to speak. Or who is telling the truth; or maybe even who is saved. Not sure how you might put it. And i am not, ok; i do not even know what i am talking about. be well

I do like that about those who seem to be "in a life or death struggle to determine who is right" and so forth. As to you, you do know more about what you are talking about than many I have seen, even if none of us know very much at all... LOL

Give God the glory!

 

[bbyrd009]

I do like that about those who seem to be "in a life or death struggle to determine who is right" and so forth.

ha well i don't; but i get you. I guess people whose faith amounts to their beliefs would naturally feel compelled to defend them, duh. i dunno if i just didn't get that gene or what lol

So, fwiw i apologize, @H. Richard , i have a blind spot there and i really do need to work on it i guess.

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: I do like that about those who seem to be "in a life or death struggle to determine who is right" and so forth.

bbyrd009 said: ha well i don't; but i get you. I guess people whose faith amounts to their beliefs would naturally feel compelled to defend them, duh. i dunno if i just didn't get that gene or what lol

While everyone needs to remember that God is the only one who in the end of the matter gives any real increase [toward Him], it must also be remembered that God will work through people to increase other people. How effective this is depends upon how much attention the teacher and the student are paying to the message God is delivering. Sometimes the main focus of the message may be on the teacher rather than the student... but does the teacher realize it when it is happening?

I believe that you @bbyrd009 are a messenger for God even if you do not apparently have an agenda readily identifiable even by your own self. Your often very brief jabs hit right at the heart of the good or the bad or the worthlessness of what someone else has presented. God gave you a talent in that and you use it usually quire well on this forum...

Having said that don't let it go to your head.

 

[bbyrd009]

Having said that don't let it go to your head.

ty, not sure what my deal is today lol. I'm having to erase a lot of stuff before i post it. Good call there