Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[Webers_Home]

.

According to 1Thess 4:13-18 The dead in Christ will be the FIRST to RISE = the
Resurrection of the Just = at His Coming. After that the Rapture is only for those
Saints who are alive on earth = at His Coming

The way I understand it: the extraction of deceased and living Christians
spoken of by 1Thess 4:13-18 isn't "his coming" because the event takes
place in the air rather than on the ground. In point of fact, the extraction
could be said to commence the seven-year tribulation, which wraps with
Jesus' personal return to establish his kingdom.
_

 

[No Pre-TB]

A.) Notice that in Matt ch25 only those whom Christ "knows" are saved and are accepted into His Kingdom.

B.) Timeline - Daniel ch7 Matt ch24 1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Hebrews 9:28

C.) The 10 virgins are symbolic of christianity. Only 5 were saved for they have been Reborn of the Spirit = they "KNEW" Jesus

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the LORD.”
Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep

"Knew/Know/Knowing" is a term used for lawful marriage between Husband/Wife as in knowing the LORD via Holy Spirit.
Whereas those who say they knew the LORD, but did not, are part of the spiritual harlot that masquerades as christianity.

Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

You did not answer my questions. I had asked:

Question 1:A: Are you meaning to say, those who are "left behind" aren't left till the wedding banquet?

Your reply: A.) Notice that in Matt ch25 only those whom Christ "knows" are saved and are accepted into His Kingdom.

Your response does not address if those who are unsaved and left behind (as you put it) are not left till the wedding banquet commences. When does the door shut that prevents the unsaved from being saved.

I then asked:

1:B: Where is this in your timeline?

Your response: B.) Timeline - Daniel ch7 Matt ch24 1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Hebrews 9:28

There is nothing in Daniel 7, 1 John:2; 3, or Hebrews 9:28 that mention a timeline for when the door shuts or when people are "left behind". I did not bother to look at 1 or 2 Thessalonians. I'd rather you provide a verse that supports it rather than an entire chapter. As far as Matthew 24 goes, I'm guessing you mean:

Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

If that is the verse you're using as support, I'd direct you back to the previous verse.

Matthew 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The ones taken were not the righteous, but the wicked. The wicked are taken by the flood, the righteous are left behind. Now, if this wasn't the verse you're using as support, please let me know.

My last question was:
Question 2: What does a spiritual virgin as opposed to a spiritual harlot mean to you?

I left your response above for anyone that wants to read it. I don't think anyone disagrees that Christ knew 5 and he didn't know the other 5; though all 10 confessed they knew Him. Were the 5 foolish ones (KJV) unsaved or was it something else? They believed, they confessed his name, they drove out demons.... There is no doubt they are punished as wicked and are not invited into the Kingdom. I don't think I disagree with you here as the parable is pretty self-explanatory.

I would mention this though - Notice how the saved ones were in darkness and they needed their oil to light their way. They did not flee off world before the darkness came and had been upon them for some time.

Matthew 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh;

 

[No Pre-TB]

.


The way I understand it: the extraction of deceased and living Christians
spoken of by 1Thess 4:13-18 isn't "his coming" because the event takes
place in the air rather than on the ground. In point of fact, the extraction
could be said to commence the seven-year tribulation, which wraps with
Jesus' personal return to establish his kingdom.
_

1 Thessalonians 4 would not agree with you.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Otherwise, how many times does he come back? I'll give a hint:
1. Acts 3:21 + Matthew19:28

He does not leave heaven till the restoration of all things. All things are not restored or have even been removed on a Pre-TB timeline. That same time is called a restoration/regeneration which is the redemption of the body when we are changed per Romans 8:21-23

Christ cannot leave heaven and U-turn back to heaven and then leave heaven 7 years later. It disagrees with Acts 3:21
One commentator said, It finds an interesting parallel in the “new heavens and new earth”—involving, as they do, a restoration of all things to their true order—of 2Peter 3:13.

 

[David in NJ]

You did not answer my questions. I had asked:

Question 1:A: Are you meaning to say, those who are "left behind" aren't left till the wedding banquet?

Your reply: A.) Notice that in Matt ch25 only those whom Christ "knows" are saved and are accepted into His Kingdom.

Your response does not address if those who are unsaved and left behind (as you put it) are not left till the wedding banquet commences. When does the door shut that prevents the unsaved from being saved.

I then asked:

1:B: Where is this in your timeline?

Your response: B.) Timeline - Daniel ch7 Matt ch24 1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Hebrews 9:28

There is nothing in Daniel 7, 1 John:2; 3, or Hebrews 9:28 that mention a timeline for when the door shuts or when people are "left behind". I did not bother to look at 1 or 2 Thessalonians. I'd rather you provide a verse that supports it rather than an entire chapter. As far as Matthew 24 goes, I'm guessing you mean:

Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

If that is the verse you're using as support, I'd direct you back to the previous verse.

Matthew 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The ones taken were not the righteous, but the wicked. The wicked are taken by the flood, the righteous are left behind. Now, if this wasn't the verse you're using as support, please let me know.

My last question was:
Question 2: What does a spiritual virgin as opposed to a spiritual harlot mean to you?

I left your response above for anyone that wants to read it. I don't think anyone disagrees that Christ knew 5 and he didn't know the other 5; though all 10 confessed they knew Him. Were the 5 foolish ones (KJV) unsaved or was it something else? They believed, they confessed his name, they drove out demons.... There is no doubt they are punished as wicked and are not invited into the Kingdom. I don't think I disagree with you here as the parable is pretty self-explanatory.

I would mention this though - Notice how the saved ones were in darkness and they needed their oil to light their way. They did not flee off world before the darkness came and had been upon them for some time.

Matthew 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh;

You do not understand this Timeline??? = Daniel ch7 Matt ch24 1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Hebrews 9:28

The Timeline is given in these scriptures.

Maybe you should review them and get back to me and then we can look at the "when the door closes".

 

[David in NJ]

.


The way I understand it: the extraction of deceased and living Christians
spoken of by 1Thess 4:13-18 isn't "his coming" because the event takes
place in the air rather than on the ground. In point of fact, the extraction
could be said to commence the seven-year tribulation, which wraps with
Jesus' personal return to establish his kingdom.
_

Please do not take offense to this:

Every time some one says 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not "His Coming" i get a good chuckle and at the same time sorrow for my Brethren.

Did the LORD Jesus tell the Apostle Paul a fib?

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

i hope this makes it easier to see

will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven

with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

In every place in Scripture it is clearly stated HIS COMING and specifically HIS SECOND COMING and specifically at the End/Last Day

There are NO MULTIPLE Returns of the LORD

Now the question you may have is why the clouds?

 

[Timtofly]

No, Timothy. It's like saying, I don't believe in a Pretrib Rapture at all.

That is what I posted.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hey!!! Those that choose to argue and fight against the rapture will most likely get to stay BEHIND here and try to live under anti-Christ rule but Jesus says we are to pray that we be counted worthy to escape as we born-again believersare not appointed for wrath. PTL.

You've been told that the persecutions of Antichrist are not "God's Wrath!" If it was, then God would be guilty of contradicting Himself, because He informed us, through His servants, that Christians would not experience God's Wrath. And Christians do suffer persecution from Antichrist during his reign of terror.

This is a hopeless contradiction for you when you use a silly argument like this. You should find a better argument, brother!

 

[No Pre-TB]

You do not understand this Timeline??? = Daniel ch7 Matt ch24 1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Hebrews 9:28

The Timeline is given in these scriptures.

Maybe you should review them and get back to me and then we can look at the "when the door closes".

I am asking for your timeline. Please provide your own thoughts backed up by verses, not just chapters.

 

[David in NJ]

I am asking your your timeline. Please provide your own thoughts backed up by verses, not just chapters.

My timeline on earth began somewhere around 1960 and the very hairs on my head are numbered and my hairline is receding.

 

[No Pre-TB]

My timeline on earth began somewhere around 1960 and the very hairs on my head are numbered and my hairline is receding.

I'm not asking when you were born David.
I am asking, where do you place the door closing within Revelation? Specifically, Chapter and verse. Where do you place the door closing in your timeline ie. Before the seals, before the trumpets, before the bowls...somewhere else? Provide a breakdown of how you see it unfold the way you think is correct with scriptural support.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The coming of the Lord is a seven-year process that commences with the
extraction of deceased and living Christians per 1Thess 4:13-18 and
culminates when Jesus returns in person to set up his kingdom.
_

 

[No Pre-TB]

.
The coming of the Lord is a seven-year process that commences with the
extraction of deceased and living Christians per 1Thess 4:13-18 and
culminates when Jesus returns in person to set up his kingdom.
_

Let me get this right. You're saying, Jesus comes to resurrect the saints. Then he leaves and returns to Heaven. Then at the end of 7 years, he leaves Heaven with us back to earth to set up his kingdom?
How does he leave heaven twice: 1st to come and resurrect us, and 2nd to come back to start his Kingdom if Acts 3:21 says:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

He cannot leave Heaven twice. He stays in Heaven till things will be restored. First, they must be removed. Neither of which happens before a 7 year period.

Or, we can look at Isaiah 25.

6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

When will he swallow up death in victory? In this mountain. What is "this mountain"?

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

The mountain is the Lord's Kingdom when he shall begin to reign. It is when the stone shatters the statue of Daniel, each piece becomes chaff. It shows the resurrection of the dead happens IN his Kingdom, not 7 years prior. Look at Matthew 19:28, Matthew 25:31

What is swallowing death in victory? 1 Corinthians 15:54

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Let me get this right. You're saying, Jesus comes to resurrect the saints. Then he
leaves and returns to Heaven. Then at the end of 7 years, he leaves Heaven with us
back to earth to set up his kingdom?

Jesus won't be coming down to the ground to assemble his living and deceased
followers per 1Thess 4:13-18. Their gathering will take place in the clouds,
i.e. the atmosphere.
_

 

[Randy Kluth]

.
The coming of the Lord is a seven-year process that commences with the
extraction of deceased and living Christians per 1Thess 4:13-18 and
culminates when Jesus returns in person to set up his kingdom.
_

No, Christ's 2nd Coming is explicitly for the purpose of defeating Antichrist and setting up God's Kingdom on earth. All of this is transparently clear from Dan 7, which is the basis for NT teaching on the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[MatthewG]

The plan is to die first.
Don’t know about you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

.


Jesus won't be coming down to the ground to assemble his living and deceased
followers per 1Thess 4:13-18. Their gathering will take place in the clouds,
i.e. the atmosphere.
_

The problem with this is, Paul taught in 1 Thes 4 that Jesus is coming for his Church not just with the clouds but also as a "descent from heaven." A descent from heaven is the equivalent of landing on the earth. You don't "descend from heaven" without arriving on the earth. You don't "descend from heaven" without leaving heaven!

Furthermore, as if this isn't clear enough, Paul argues in 2 Thes 2 that Christ is coming for his Church *after* the reign of Antichrist. Then he comes to destroy Antichrist *with the breath of his mouth." That is the destruction of the Antichrist, the one "doomed to destruction," as Paul so clearly states.

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...
2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

It's what you want to believe Scripture says. Laying all of our personal eschatology aside, we should accept at face value just what the Scripture says!

 

[David in NJ]

I'm not asking when you were born David.
I am asking, where do you place the door closing within Revelation? Specifically, Chapter and verse. Where do you place the door closing in your timeline ie. Before the seals, before the trumpets, before the bowls...somewhere else? Provide a breakdown of how you see it unfold the way you think is correct with scriptural support.

Well, it is impossible that the 'Door' closes in any of the Seals except for the 6th Seal which has possibility and most likely.

We must keep in mind that Revelation is a developing Story with specific statements interwoven that are the OT Prophecies, Gospel and Apostles writing interwoven.

JESUS did specifically tell us when the Door closes in His Gospel and we can see it in Revelation as HE said it in His Gospel.

Peace

 

[No Pre-TB]

except for the 6th Seal which has possibility and most likely.

So, your timeline has the door closing (most likely) at the 6th seal? What verse in the 6th seal gives you evidence of that?

 

[David in NJ]

So, your timeline has the door closing (most likely) at the 6th seal? What verse in the 6th seal gives you evidence of that?

When i say refer to the 6th Seal, just keep in mind that Revelation is a developing Story.

So even when we read ch6 of the Seals and what the content of each Seal reveals it does not mean that the LORD has finished His Story in Revelation, even though the 6th Seal pertains to His Second Coming.

"And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

No one can say that the Rapture has occured in Chapter 6.

What we can say is that the Seals reverberate the Message contained in the Gospel, OT Prophets and Apostles.

No one can rightly understand Revelation unless they first understand Genesis thru the Prophets thru the Gospel thru the Apostles.

 

[David in NJ]

The problem with this is, Paul taught in 1 Thes 4 that Jesus is coming for his Church not just with the clouds but also as a "descent from heaven." A descent from heaven is the equivalent of landing on the earth. You don't "descend from heaven" without arriving on the earth. You don't "descend from heaven" without leaving heaven!

Furthermore, as if this isn't clear enough, Paul argues in 2 Thes 2 that Christ is coming for his Church *after* the reign of Antichrist. Then he comes to destroy Antichrist *with the breath of his mouth." That is the destruction of the Antichrist, the one "doomed to destruction," as Paul so clearly states.

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...
2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

It's what you want to believe Scripture says. Laying all of our personal eschatology aside, we should accept at face value just what the Scripture says!

Excellent and thank you for sharing without tearing the scripture apart and reassembling with 'crazy' glue........