Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[Davy]

My answer is that I neither know the day or the hour of my departure from this mortal coil, so I must remain constantly vigilant in my daily walk and I must repent as often as I sin in thought, word, deed, or am in failure to do. Therefore, the timing of the rapture is of no consequence to me because my salvation is not based upon whether my understanding of the event is accurate or not. Just my 2 cents. Cheers.

And here's my two cents to that, take it over leave it.

1. We cannot write our 'own' requirements against being deceived at the end of this world. Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us specific warnings and Signs to be watching for the end, just so we would not... be deceived.

2. In His warnings, Jesus revealed a false-Messiah is coming to earth to play Him, with the power to do the level of miracles that He did on earth, and that false one will deceive the whole world, except His very elect. Have you prepared for that, heeded His warnings about that for the end? Apostles Paul and John also gave that same type warning about that coming false one (2 Thess.2:3-9; Rev.13:11 forward).

3. In 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul said he espoused us to one Husband (Jesus), and wants to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". Paul was of course speaking in the spiritual sense. That idea comes from God speaking through His Old Testament prophets, like in Isaiah 54. The idea is simple, but many struggle with it...

When Lord Jesus returns, the believer will be found as either still "a chaste virgin", having waited for Him to come, or as a spiritual harlot, and found "with child", having married another in place of Christ Jesus. That other one Paul called the "another Jesus". This is about the warning, "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." (Matt.24:19 linked to Luke 23:27-30 and Isaiah 54).

 

[Davy]

OUT OF SEQUENCE dogma of the events of the End Times plagues our congregations. One of these is the dogma of the rapture.

There are at least 16 different variations of the timing of the Second Coming described as the rapture. Most of them are linked in one way or the other to either the millennium or the tribulation or both - or neither. Take your pick. I'm sure you will. Some sources suggest there are a lot more interpretations than sixteen. I will present here only two, both from scripture rather than quotes from YouTube talking heads (which seem to take preeminence these days over the written Word).

The first is the section quoted above from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.
The second section can be found in Luke 17:34-37. I'm quoting this one below:

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

The key to both verses is to read where sinners, rather than saints, end their earthly career.

In Luke 17:37, Jesus is asked who takes the sinners and where they'll end up. Jesus says, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” In other words, we see in Luke's gospel that it is the SINNERS who are extracted from the world. They are removed by a fleet of demons and dumped with the dead (the meaning taken here is 'spiritually dead' or unsaved).

In the first verse quoted from 1 Thessalonians we read "'after that'.....we who are still alive....will be caught up". In other words, the saints take the 2nd train out of town....or 2nd flight as it were.

The two quotes of scripture aren't in disagreement at all unless one tries to jimmy them into a false assertion - a false interpretation that's OUT OF SEQUENCE.

Is there only one rapture as many suggest or are there two evacuations from planet earth?

The two quotes of scripture above seem to indicate there is a concentrated effort by God to remove sinners first. Sinners are taken to a place of the dead. That place isn't described except insofar as what sort of people will end up there. The dead end up there. Saints are rescued at a later time. How much later?

That's a subject for another post, but again I must caution the reader that there are additional changes to the sequence when one considers the aftermath of the first removal (of sinners).

Would to God the sinners would all be taken out right now - to give the saints a short respite to enjoy earth devoid of wickedness and cruelty. Maybe time to take a picnic without worrying about being shot or robbed during the meal.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Not about sinners being removed, but about the deceived and sinners fleeing to the "another Jesus" instead of remaining faithful waiting for Christ Jesus to come at the end.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The body:

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. [Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”​

There is some discussion concerning what Jesus means by his cryptic statement, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." As one has already pointed out, the term body means "corpse" and of course, a corpse is a dead body. The meaning of the statement is true enough by itself. Vultures typically gather around a dead body. But how is that an answer to the question, "where Lord?" Where will they take them?

The metaphor must be understood from within the Lord's warning about Lot's wife. Were any taken then? Yes. Refer to Genesis 19, where we read about two angels who came to warn Lot and his family about the impending destruction of Sodom. Lot and his family hesitated to leave, for various reasons, one of those being that the local residents threatened to rape them if they left the house. When the time drew near, the angels had no other choice but to physically take Lot and his family out of the house. After the Angels brought them outside the city, they commanded Lot and his family to "escape!" Lot's wife looked back toward the city and she stayed there. And for this reason, she was turned into a pillar of salt.

Presumably, then, there will be two women grinding grain together, one will be taken to safety, and the other left behind. There will be two men laying in bed, one will be taken to safety and the other left behind. But what does this have to do with a dead body? Presumably, they are being taken to where the dead body is located. At this point, it will be confusing if we take the metaphor literally. They are not literally being taken to a dead body.

I believe Jesus is hinting at Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones. Israel is the "corpse" who complains to God that she is nothing but a valley of dry bones. Ezekiel pictures the gathering of the people of Israel back to the land to form a new body. And this new body will come to life after God pours out his spirit among them. But before that happens, Jesus will gather his followers to meet him in the air, presumably over the city of Jerusalem.

The "vultures" represent Israel's enemies who will gather around her. Jesus will go to war with them and defeat them, and Jesus will bring his holy ones with him. Zechariah 14:1-5

Summary:
During the rapture, Jesus brings all of his followers up into the air to be with him forever.
We all meet with the Lord, in the air over Jerusalem (gathered to the dead body)
Israel's enemies (the vultures) gather around her for the purpose of destroying her.
Jesus comes down to the earth to battle Israel's enemies (the vultures) and he defeats them.
After that, his holy ones, his followers come down to earth to be with him there.

That's how I see it.

 

[M3n0r4h]

And here's my two cents to that, take it over leave it.

1. We cannot write our 'own' requirements against being deceived at the end of this world. Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us specific warnings and Signs to be watching for the end, just so we would not... be deceived.

2. In His warnings, Jesus revealed a false-Messiah is coming to earth to play Him, with the power to do the level of miracles that He did on earth, and that false one will deceive the whole world, except His very elect. Have you prepared for that, heeded His warnings about that for the end? Apostles Paul and John also gave that same type warning about that coming false one (2 Thess.2:3-9; Rev.13:11 forward).

3. In 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul said he espoused us to one Husband (Jesus), and wants to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". Paul was of course speaking in the spiritual sense. That idea comes from God speaking through His Old Testament prophets, like in Isaiah 54. The idea is simple, but many struggle with it...

When Lord Jesus returns, the believer will be found as either still "a chaste virgin", having waited for Him to come, or as a spiritual harlot, and found "with child", having married another in place of Christ Jesus. That other one Paul called the "another Jesus". This is about the warning, "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." (Matt.24:19 linked to Luke 23:27-30 and Isaiah 54).

Sorry, but IMO, adding unwarranted requirements to the 'gift' of salvation is akin to the Judaizers requiring circumcision as a requirement for salvation. The issue of the timing of the harpazo is divisive, and requiring the proper knowledge of the correct timing of the event smacks of Gnosticism.

Romans 10:9-13
English Standard Version
​

9 ..., if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The timing of the Lord's return is in the hands of the Father, therefore believers should continue to love God; love people; shared the good news of the Gospel of Jesus; and endure til the end, that is, whenever each of us meets our end. Cheers.

 

[[email protected]]

Lot of Christian Churches today actually support... the orthodox unbelieving Jews with their plans to build the next temple. So I don't think the hatred you are claiming they have is real.

Let's not get into temple reconstruction shall we? That con has been going on for decades and nothing has been built at all. It's a scam perpetrated upon gullible evangelistic types to separate them from their hard earned money. The whole thing is a lie. Orthodox Jews aren't interested in the least bit concerning a new Jerusalem temple. Talk to one sometime....for real....face to face. I dare you.

Christian hatred of Jews is systemic.

It's embedded in their dogma and it's evident in their extreme discomfort with anything Jewish. The average church type is ok with the Jew as long as he's at arm's length - not close enough to talk to seriously. I recently participated in a Baptist men's group during which the prophecies of Daniel were discussed. When Jewish HISTORY conflicts with Baptist presuppositions the Jewish explanations are rejected out of hand. (*) Nobody in a church wants to hear anything about Jews from a Jewish perspective.

The dogma I speak of is the whole tribulation/millenium/rapture thing. It was originally formulated by the Vatican in 1595 and republished by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century. Nobody seems to care that its entirely illogical and antisemitic. The normal course of history has proven it to be soundly erroneous, but church types ignore it in favor of their fantasies. Church leaders won't change the story line either because it remains quite profitable.

When I explain the prophecy and fulfillment of the time of Jacob's Trouble, church types invariably deny it. To accept it means that something other than their faulty sequence of events has actually happened in real time and in real history. They prefer their fantasies and reiteration of a story line 500 years old to the fact of six million Jewish dead. The same thing happened with the pharisees during Jesus' time as well. They got THEIR prophetic sequence of order too and missed God's visitation among them. Church types read the gospels and wag their empty heads at the pharisees, wondering how the old Jews could be so stupid WHEN THEY ARE GUILTY OF THE SAME THINKING TODAY.

The hatred is real. The discomfort with Jews is a fact. If you doubt my words, then go to a synagogue and sit through a shabbat service. I do it all the time. Right there is where the tire meets the road. YOU won't do it because YOU are really uncomfortable with Jews. So are most church types who think they've got a handle on things when they most assuredly do not.

One of the problems with this systemic hate of Jews is the total inability of church types to speak to Jews of Christ. Christians are the most Biblically illiterate religious people on the planet. They don't even know their own religion or their own scripture. They've convinced themselves that their buzz words and slogans actually mean something when they don't even know what their own quotes actually mean. Few even read the Tanakh much less argue from it to persuade others of Christ's divinity.

In theological terms this deviation from the gospel is called RELEVANCE. Most church leaders today will tell you there's a BIG problem with making the gospel relevant to society today. What they don't realize and what the layman doesn't know is that the task is impossible. Because the gospel has been betrayed and because the average church member is so ignorant we've got the present dilemma of Christendom in serious decline. Nobody wants to admit the problems - antisemitism and betrayal of the gospel.

It goes on and on but the bottom line here is simply this; that church types are VERY uncomfortable with Jews and that when challenged with this fact they deny deny deny......as you have done.

Consider the possibility of the TRUE historic significance of the time of Jacob's Trouble (holocaust) and THEN you've got something very serious to think about.

.....but nobody in church wants to think.....do they?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Case in point is Daniel's prophecy of 'the abomination of desolation'. Church types rely upon the Vatican explanation, which has nothing at all to do with the fact of Jewish history. The abomination of desolation is something else entirely different from churchy versions of religious sci fi. btw, it's called Tisha B'Av. I'll bet you've never heard of it. Look it up. It has to do with destruction of Jewish property....something the church doesn't care about either.

 

[[email protected]]

The body:

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. [Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”​

There is some discussion concerning what Jesus means by his cryptic statement, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." As one has already pointed out, the term body means "corpse" and of course, a corpse is a dead body. The meaning of the statement is true enough by itself. Vultures typically gather around a dead body. But how is that an answer to the question, "where Lord?" Where will they take them?

The metaphor must be understood from within the Lord's warning about Lot's wife. Were any taken then? Yes. Refer to Genesis 19, where we read about two angels who came to warn Lot and his family about the impending destruction of Sodom. Lot and his family hesitated to leave, for various reasons, one of those being that the local residents threatened to rape them if they left the house. When the time drew near, the angels had no other choice but to physically take Lot and his family out of the house. After the Angels brought them outside the city, they commanded Lot and his family to "escape!" Lot's wife looked back toward the city and she stayed there. And for this reason, she was turned into a pillar of salt.

Presumably, then, there will be two women grinding grain together, one will be taken to safety, and the other left behind. There will be two men laying in bed, one will be taken to safety and the other left behind. But what does this have to do with a dead body? Presumably, they are being taken to where the dead body is located. At this point, it will be confusing if we take the metaphor literally. They are not literally being taken to a dead body.

I believe Jesus is hinting at Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones. Israel is the "corpse" who complains to God that she is nothing but a valley of dry bones. Ezekiel pictures the gathering of the people of Israel back to the land to form a new body. And this new body will come to life after God pours out his spirit among them. But before that happens, Jesus will gather his followers to meet him in the air, presumably over the city of Jerusalem.

The "vultures" represent Israel's enemies who will gather around her. Jesus will go to war with them and defeat them, and Jesus will bring his holy ones with him. Zechariah 14:1-5

Summary:
During the rapture, Jesus brings all of his followers up into the air to be with him forever.
We all meet with the Lord, in the air over Jerusalem (gathered to the dead body)
Israel's enemies (the vultures) gather around her for the purpose of destroying her.
Jesus comes down to the earth to battle Israel's enemies (the vultures) and he defeats them.
After that, his holy ones, his followers come down to earth to be with him there.

That's how I see it.

In your post you wrote, "I believe Jesus is hinting at Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones. Israel is the "corpse" who complains to God that she is nothing but a valley of dry bones. Ezekiel pictures the gathering of the people of Israel back to the land to form a new body. And this new body will come to life after God pours out his spirit among them. But before that happens, Jesus will gather his followers to meet him in the air, presumably over the city of Jerusalem."

In your mad rush to defend the errant dogma of the rapture you have COMPLETELY abandoned the legitimate interpretation of Ezekiel 37's dry bones prophecy. You also, like many other self-important church types, embraced an anti-semitic attitude as well as displayed to one and all your complete disregard for Holy Writ.

Instead of taking a hard look at actual Jewish history, you abandon what has been written in the blood and sweat and toil of Israeli patriots and international friends of Israel. You falsely claim the rapture will take place before Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

On the 14th day of May 1948 the modern State of Israel became an independent nation among the family of nations. LOOK IT UP. No bogus lie and no false interpretation of Ezekiel 37 will alter that FACT. Israel has happened. The rapture has NOT.

Jesus will NOT gather anybody into the air above the city of Jerusalem.

This is evidence you haven't read your Bible AT ALL. Please READ IT before you make asinine statements that pretend to result from scholarship.

Read Luke 24. In that chapter you will learn that Jesus ascended into heaven from Lazarus' home town of Bethany.
In Acts 1 we read that Jesus will return in the same way He was taken up.

READ IT.

In the book of Exodus and again in Leviticus we learn of the process by which one appropriately approaches God - from east to west, by the LAW of Moses.

Look at a map.

Bethany lies on the east side of the Mount of Olives, which in turn is on the eastern side of the Kidron Valley beyond the East Gate of Jerusalem - where Jesus once entered amidst a crowd of cheering supporters waving palms. When He returns He will do so from the same direction as He entered before - from east to west.

In Zechariah 14:4 we read that Jesus will set foot upon the Mount of Olives at His return. NO RAPTURE IS DESCRIBED HERE. On that day, when Jesus' foot touches the ground, the mountain will split in two from east to west. At that point, when He reenters Jerusalem He will do so from east to west, by the LAW of Moses.

As God split the Red Sea by the hand of Moses, so Jesus will split the Mount of Olives and approach Jerusalem IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE SAME LAW as that which governed respectful approach of priests in the temple - in the same direction, east to west.

Please READ THE BIBLE so as to show yourself approved (2 Tim 2:15), or DON'T and prove yourself a Biblical illiterate which you've neatly done in your post quoted above.

It isn't about proving bogus dogma like the rapture. IT IS about learning how God does things, BY THE LAW.

One of the reasons church types nurture an attitude of spiritual superiority over Jews is their systemic anti-semitism. If its Jewish, they reason, it can't be correct. As a consequence church types invent their own perspective of things - denying always that God IS who He says He is and How we are expected to live before Him. Church types have betrayed the gospel and believe today that they are justified in putting their hands upon every filthy thing they desire.

Will Jesus find faith in the church when He returns? Not if things continue as they are. Most don't even know what faith IS or what the purpose of Grace may be, by the LAW. The church is now a fetid swamp of licentiousness - a stench in the nostrils of Adonai.

Therefore the church is Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[CadyandZoe]

In your post you wrote, "I believe Jesus is hinting at Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones. Israel is the "corpse" who complains to God that she is nothing but a valley of dry bones. Ezekiel pictures the gathering of the people of Israel back to the land to form a new body. And this new body will come to life after God pours out his spirit among them. But before that happens, Jesus will gather his followers to meet him in the air, presumably over the city of Jerusalem."

In your mad rush to defend the errant dogma of the rapture you have COMPLETELY abandoned the legitimate interpretation of Ezekiel 37's dry bones prophecy.

No, but rather, you have grossly misconstrued what I said. The doctrine of the rapture is not errant dogma, being taught by the Apostle Paul.

You also, like many other self-important church types, embraced an anti-semitic attitude as well as displayed to one and all your complete disregard for Holy Writ.

I think your charge of antisemitism is unjustified.

Instead of taking a hard look at actual Jewish history, you abandon what has been written in the blood and sweat and toil of Israeli patriots and international friends of Israel. You falsely claim the rapture will take place before Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled.

Yes, I do. But you seem to discount a significant and important section of that prophetic word.

On the 14th day of May 1948 the modern State of Israel became an independent nation among the family of nations. LOOK IT UP. No bogus lie and no false interpretation of Ezekiel 37 will alter that FACT.

May 1948 is only a partial fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy. Ezekiel prophesied a three-step process. 1) The dry bones will be assembled together. 2) Flesh will be attached to the bones. 3) Spirit will be infused into the body. So far we are on step 2. His prophecy will be fulfilled when the prophecy moves into step 3.

Israel has happened. The rapture has NOT.

Yes, as I said, the prophecy has yet to progress to step 3. Jesus spoke about this in Mathew 24.

Matthew 24:29-31

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

Ezekiel's dry bones have been gathered together (the people return to the land) and flesh has been put on the bones (a new country was formed in 1948) This lifeless body will not be a living body until God pours out his spirit on it. In the meantime, at some future time, the son of man will appear in the sky, and then the rapture will take place. The lifeless body will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Then, as it is written, all the tribes will mourn.

This is evidence you haven't read your Bible AT ALL. Please READ IT before you make asinine statements that pretend to result from scholarship.

I can tell by your vocabulary that you are unsure of your own position and feel threatened that you might be wrong. I can't help you there.

Read Luke 24. In that chapter you will learn that Jesus ascended into heaven from Lazarus' home town of Bethany.
In Acts 1 we read that Jesus will return in the same way He was taken up.

Luke 24 says that Jesus was carried up into heaven. But Luke doesn't talk about Jesus' return. You might be thinking of Acts 1:9-11

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”​

According to the angel, Jesus will return in like manner to how he left. We see the manner in which he left, He was lifted up and a cloud received him out of their sight. Jesus himself told his accusers, "I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Jesus went up to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, but when he returns, he will come on the clouds of heaven. And when he does, the people below will see him come. Zechariah lets us know where he will land. "In that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

In Zechariah 14:4 we read that Jesus will set foot upon the Mount of Olives at His return. NO RAPTURE IS DESCRIBED HERE.

Why would anyone expect to read about the rapture in Zechariah?

On that day, when Jesus' foot touches the ground, the mountain will split in two from east to west. At that point, when He reenters Jerusalem He will do so from east to west, by the LAW of Moses.

Okay, nothing I said is defeated by this information. Obviously, before Jesus steps onto the Mount of Olives, he is seen coming in the clouds of heaven, where he has already met with his followers.

It isn't about proving bogus dogma like the rapture.

It's all about sharing what we believe the scriptures mean in a respectful manner.

One of the reasons church types nurture an attitude of spiritual superiority over Jews is their systemic anti-semitism.

I find that claims of antisemitism are often used as a cudgel to discourage dissent. Is that your purpose brother?

 

[rwb]

Well, it is impossible that the 'Door' closes in any of the Seals except for the 6th Seal which has possibility and most likely.

We must keep in mind that Revelation is a developing Story with specific statements interwoven that are the OT Prophecies, Gospel and Apostles writing interwoven.

JESUS did specifically tell us when the Door closes in His Gospel and we can see it in Revelation as HE said it in His Gospel.

Peace

Anyone believing salvation will still be possible after the coming of Christ, when He sends His angels to gather His elect from heaven and the four corners of the earth, are living in fantasy. Christ clearly tells us "the end" shall come when after the Gospel has been preached unto all the nations of the earth.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The fate of all who are left behind after the gathering of ALL (both dead & living) saints from the earth, is very clearly shown by Paul in Th IF people would simply continue to read the whole context. According to Paul destruction will come upon them, and NONE shall escape. They will be those who don't know the Lord and therefore are not looking for and waiting for His coming again.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 (KJV) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Where will there be one thousand more years given to unbelieving mankind some imagine will survive this destruction by fire since it will not be on this earth?

 

[rwb]

Believers don’t do the hackneyed “go to heaven” thing; rather, Christ sets up his kingdom here, with us. We, being "caught up" with others, meet the Lord in the air and then return back to earth with him.

For example, if your friends fly in from another country to visit you, you might travel to your local airport to meet them when their plane lands and then escort them back to your place. If they’re VIP friends, you might have a delegation meet them at your country's main airport, and then escort them back to your place. In either case, you don’t go to your airport, meet your friends, get on your friend’s plane, and then travel back with your friends to their place of origin!

So, do we have a scriptural witness to this scenario? Yes.

...we came the next day to Puteoli: Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome... -- Acts 28:13-16

The brothers in Rome got word of their impending visitors, and so went out to meet them at Appii forum, and then escorted them back to Rome.

meet = same word in both Acts 28 and 1 Thes. 4.

Here are all four usages of the word meet:

Mat. 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat. 25:6 - And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Acts 28:15 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All four are consistent with “meet and greet and return to base.“

I agree the faithful saints caught up to meet the Lord in the air will be with Him. But they will not return to the earth that now is! The reason the faithful are caught up to meet the Lord in the air is because this earth and everything on it will be burned up. Then we who are with the Lord will come down to the new earth that shall be after this first earth has passed away. The saints will be the holy city new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[rockytopva]

 

[[email protected]]

No, but rather, you have grossly misconstrued what I said. The doctrine of the rapture is not errant dogma, being taught by the Apostle Paul.

I think your charge of antisemitism is unjustified.

Yes, I do. But you seem to discount a significant and important section of that prophetic word.

May 1948 is only a partial fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy. Ezekiel prophesied a three-step process. 1) The dry bones will be assembled together. 2) Flesh will be attached to the bones. 3) Spirit will be infused into the body. So far we are on step 2. His prophecy will be fulfilled when the prophecy moves into step 3.



Yes, as I said, the prophecy has yet to progress to step 3. Jesus spoke about this in Mathew 24.

Matthew 24:29-31

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

Ezekiel's dry bones have been gathered together (the people return to the land) and flesh has been put on the bones (a new country was formed in 1948) This lifeless body will not be a living body until God pours out his spirit on it. In the meantime, at some future time, the son of man will appear in the sky, and then the rapture will take place. The lifeless body will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Then, as it is written, all the tribes will mourn.


I can tell by your vocabulary that you are unsure of your own position and feel threatened that you might be wrong. I can't help you there.

Luke 24 says that Jesus was carried up into heaven. But Luke doesn't talk about Jesus' return. You might be thinking of Acts 1:9-11

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”​

According to the angel, Jesus will return in like manner to how he left. We see the manner in which he left, He was lifted up and a cloud received him out of their sight. Jesus himself told his accusers, "I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Jesus went up to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, but when he returns, he will come on the clouds of heaven. And when he does, the people below will see him come. Zechariah lets us know where he will land. "In that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

Why would anyone expect to read about the rapture in Zechariah?

Okay, nothing I said is defeated by this information. Obviously, before Jesus steps onto the Mount of Olives, he is seen coming in the clouds of heaven, where he has already met with his followers.

It's all about sharing what we believe the scriptures mean in a respectful manner.

I find that claims of antisemitism are often used as a cudgel to discourage dissent. Is that your purpose brother?

Use of the phrase 'anti-semitism' is meant to awaken the reader to injustice ESPECIALLY in the church.

I don't suffer fools, so I have no response to your parroted ideological post. Say something original and we'll have something to discuss.

Finally, I AM NOT YOUR BROTHER. I don't appreciate insults. Knock it off.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Use of the phrase 'anti-semitism' is meant to awaken the reader to injustice ESPECIALLY in the church.

So you say. I doubt it. Your understanding is deficient and your argument weak, which is why you attempt to intimidate people with your abusive language. But I am not intimidated.

 

[[email protected]]

So you say. I doubt it. Your understanding is deficient and your argument weak, which is why you attempt to intimidate people with your abusive language. But I am not intimidated.

Not meant to intimidate anyone. One has to have a functioning appreciation of things to be intimidated.

My statement that anti-semitism is systemic in the church stands. Most likely you harbor a great deal of it yourself. Also likely is that you spend your time closeted in your own little world and are completely unaware of the nature of this toxic attitude. Case in point are your mistaken conclusions about Ezekiel 37.

What I'm referring to is ideological superiority over Jews. Case in point is the idiotic arguments supported here regarding the rapture. Nowhere in the Bible is the idea supported. Sure, one can take snippets of scripture out of context to prove something, but that doesn't make it so. For example, the dogma of the rapture doesn't include Jews in any excursion among the clouds. Mostly it doesn't include Catholics either, or Eastern Orthodox members or any of the variations of Christendom outside American versions. (This is why the rapture is considered heretical doctrine in many churches outside the United States.)

Systemic anti-semitism is hidden, which is why it wears the brand 'systemic'. There is a general attitude of discomfort about the Jew. Think I'm wrong? Attend ANY shabbat service from beginning to end and then speak honestly as to whether or not you were uncomfortable with it. I invited a local Baptist church leader to attend one as my guest, but he refused. If leaders don't have the guts to even see what's going on how can anybody yield the point that their Biblical interpretation isn't skewed in favor of American evangelical ideology? They can't because their prejudice keeps them from admitting to it.

This thread is about a nonsense doctrine called the rapture. Nowhere in the Bible is such an interpretation justified. People who attempt to refute this bogus idea via reason are generally shouted down by brain-dead churchy parrots who only misquote scripture they don't understand in the first place. Throw in a bit of hate for the Jew and - presto - you've got American evangelical doctrine. It won't save anybody, but it does make fools feel comfortable about their spiritless assemblies. Hint: the Ruach Ha Kodesh isn't the only spirit visiting American churches these days.

Finally a word of warning must be shared. Refusal to examine false dogma for what it really is may result in a journey through error for the rest of one's natural life. There no growth will be apparent and no appreciation of the deep things of God will accrue.

Millions of people are turning their back upon the church, myself included. Legitimate statistical polls all agree, as well as many noted theologians of the present time. Do you know why? The 'why' is empty irrelevant dogma like your rapture, that's why.

Are my words wasted here? Possibly. There are none so blind as those who will not see and none who cry so loudly they are free as those who wear chains they've forged for themselves.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not meant to intimidate anyone. One has to have a functioning appreciation of things to be intimidated.

So you say, but your presumptuous behavior belies your claim.

My statement that anti-semitism is systemic in the church stands.

Some men presume to know something about "the church."

Most likely you harbor a great deal of it yourself.

Most likely? Earlier you accused me of being antisemitic. Now you aren't sure? Why do you presume to speak without knowledge?

Also likely is that you spend your time closeted in your own little world and are completely unaware of the nature of this toxic attitude.

What has become evident is that you are a victim of your own imagination, which is a clear sign of fear. What do you fear?

Case in point are your mistaken conclusions about Ezekiel 37.

When someone says, "case in point" they usually present the actual case. Your generalizations don't qualify. All you say is "bla bla bla", meaningless ramblings. You don't seem to have anything of substance to say.

This thread is about a nonsense doctrine called the rapture.

1Thessalonians 4:11ff

Are my words wasted here? Possibly.

Having doubts? I don't want to discourage you from posting. But we seem to have heard all that you want to say, did we?

I get it, you think the rapture doctrine is wrong and destructive. You don't know why. You don't seem to even understand it. But you feel strongly about it, so strongly in fact, you have chosen to convey your strong negative emotion with another, unrelated word, "antisemitism", which also evokes a negative emotion. You feel bad, you want us to feel bad along with you. I understand.

What is the real deal here? Speak honestly. What is your actual concern? Was your intent to play the role of the inquisitor or did you have another purpose?

 

[[email protected]]

So you say, but your presumptuous behavior belies your claim.

Some men presume to know something about "the church."

Most likely? Earlier you accused me of being antisemitic. Now you aren't sure? Why do you presume to speak without knowledge?


What has become evident is that you are a victim of your own imagination, which is a clear sign of fear. What do you fear?

When someone says, "case in point" they usually present the actual case. Your generalizations don't qualify. All you say is "bla bla bla", meaningless ramblings. You don't seem to have anything of substance to say.


1Thessalonians 4:11ff

Having doubts? I don't want to discourage you from posting. But we seem to have heard all that you want to say, did we?

I get it, you think the rapture doctrine is wrong and destructive. You don't know why. You don't seem to even understand it. But you feel strongly about it, so strongly in fact, you have chosen to convey your strong negative emotion with another, unrelated word, "antisemitism", which also evokes a negative emotion. You feel bad, you want us to feel bad along with you. I understand.

What is the real deal here? Speak honestly. What is your actual concern? Was your intent to play the role of the inquisitor or did you have another purpose?

What do I fear?

I fear the perpetuation of ignorant hypocritical heretical imbeciles in the church. These are people who have no problem with being double-minded or arguing in favor of doctrines of demons. Churches in other lands have identified these doctrines as NOT of God, NOT in agreement with the context of the Bible as a whole, as being divisive and heretical (that means NOT consistent with Biblical truth). The whole world, especially in America, is now convinced that church types are ignorant snake oil salesmen with nothing of value to offer anyone. (This is called IRRELEVANCE in theological circles - of which I doubt you are aware.) In truth, they are correct. What is ironic is that despite warnings from all sides, church types ignore it - as do you. Medicine can heal most ailments, but it can't fix stupid.

Even amongst fans of the rapture there is extreme disagreement. (This should tell you something except that you won't listen.)

There are AT LEAST 16 different variations of rapture/millenium/tribulation theories - more than conspiracy theories about JFK's killers. IF the rapture were a legitimate doctrine, which it is NOT, then one would suppose there'd be fewer disagreements. Only a very few scriptures are quoted to justify this aberration, which ought to tell even the most juvenile of scholars that something is terribly wrong with the assumption of truth.

As expected you launch into all manner of tangential remarks regarding self-justification with the false doctrine. None of them are valid or even logical, but in keeping with those who expound upon dark interpretations of the Bible you continue your argument unabated.

Anti-semitism IS related to the doctrine of the Tribulation. Is your memory THAT SHORT? Let me remind you. Jeremiah 30:7 speaks of "Jacob's trouble/distress". Daniel tells us the period will last 7 years. Jesus said it would only happen ONCE.

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN." (Y'shuah/Jesus quoted by Matthew 24:21)

In order to pass off the Tribulation as an event in our FUTURE one has to call Jesus Christ a liar. Is that you? You'd do it if you thought you could get away with it - true evidence of a disciple of the devil.

The time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation began in 1938 and lasted until the end of European hostilities in 1945, a period of SEVEN YEARS.

The promotion of the LIE that the tribulation is in the future is a severe example of undiluted unrepentant anti-semitism in the church, for it hopes for MORE death and destruction to be visited upon Jews as well as the world in general. btw, church types are deliberately ignorant of history and deny the epic tragedy of WWII during which the entire continent of Europe was devastated as well as most of mainland China and the nations of the western Pacific. 60 MILLION people died during that war......but it doesn't bother you a bit does it? It doesn't affect your adherence to doctrine that is neither Biblically correct nor historically accurate.

There is a word for such people. The word is FOOL.

Even as fools walk along the road, they lack sense and show everyone how stupid they are. (Ecclesiastes 10:3)
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. (Proverbs 18:2)

I am not an inquisitor. My intent was to impart truth and wisdom to people who don't deserve it. Inasmuch as I've tried to do so and have been met with resistance at every point it is I who am guilty of the greatest mistake. I tried to convince fools of the error of their ways. My bad.

This is how it will go for you - a prediction of the wise imparted to fools.

You will continue to embrace your false doctrine until one of two events occur. Either Jesus will return again amid circumstances that do NOT agree with your erroneous presuppositions or you will end your natural life in ignorance. Either way you will NEVER be able to learn the deep things of God - for the rest of your natural life. You will only be able to satisfy yourself with clever regurgitations of the same milky vomit you've been swallowing in the past. Nothing new will be ventured and nothing new will be gained. There are words for that sort of religion - FRUITLESS & UNSALTY.

My purpose was to share what I've observed. You've underlined my basic argument and accomplished the devil's work well. Congratulations. The real irony here is that you have no idea what's going on at all - demonstrated by the words you write yourself.

I pity you.

In fact, I seriously doubt you'll even accept that tiny bit of pitiful empathy from me - you're THAT far gone.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[dev553344]

Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind?? 1 Thess. 4: 14-18 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left """will be caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Well the OP's scripture are encouraging to all. But the OP title of this thread is frightening if @GISMYS_7 was in charge of the rapture. But that isn't correct is it. God is in charge of judgment and who will and won't be raptured. I don't think anyone can be sure they will be raptured or left behind.

Glory to God please, all praise and worship to the Lord, power and glory are his.

 

[David in NJ]

Well the OP's scripture are encouraging to all. But the OP title of this thread is frightening if @GISMYS_7 was in charge of the rapture. But that isn't correct is it. God is in charge of judgment and who will and won't be raptured. Not even the OP poster can say they will be raptured as no one can that lives on this earth. Nor can they say they will be left behind.

Glory to God please, all praise and worship to the Lord, power and glory are his.

Well said.

Having the mind of Christ always prevails.

 

[David in NJ]

What do I fear?

I fear the perpetuation of ignorant hypocritical heretical imbeciles in the church. These are people who have no problem with being double-minded or arguing in favor of doctrines of demons. Churches in other lands have identified these doctrines as NOT of God, NOT in agreement with the context of the Bible as a whole, as being divisive and heretical (that means NOT consistent with Biblical truth). The whole world, especially in America, is now convinced that church types are ignorant snake oil salesmen with nothing of value to offer anyone. (This is called IRRELEVANCE in theological circles - of which I doubt you are aware.) In truth, they are correct. What is ironic is that despite warnings from all sides, church types ignore it - as do you. Medicine can heal most ailments, but it can't fix stupid.

Even amongst fans of the rapture there is extreme disagreement. (This should tell you something except that you won't listen.)

There are AT LEAST 16 different variations of rapture/millenium/tribulation theories - more than conspiracy theories about JFK's killers. IF the rapture were a legitimate doctrine, which it is NOT, then one would suppose there'd be fewer disagreements. Only a very few scriptures are quoted to justify this aberration, which ought to tell even the most juvenile of scholars that something is terribly wrong with the assumption of truth.

As expected you launch into all manner of tangential remarks regarding self-justification with the false doctrine. None of them are valid or even logical, but in keeping with those who expound upon dark interpretations of the Bible you continue your argument unabated.

Anti-semitism IS related to the doctrine of the Tribulation. Is your memory THAT SHORT? Let me remind you. Jeremiah 30:7 speaks of "Jacob's trouble/distress". Daniel tells us the period will last 7 years. Jesus said it would only happen ONCE.

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN." (Y'shuah/Jesus quoted by Matthew 24:21)

In order to pass off the Tribulation as an event in our FUTURE one has to call Jesus Christ a liar. Is that you? You'd do it if you thought you could get away with it - true evidence of a disciple of the devil.

The time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation began in 1938 and lasted until the end of European hostilities in 1945, a period of SEVEN YEARS.

The promotion of the LIE that the tribulation is in the future is a severe example of undiluted unrepentant anti-semitism in the church, for it hopes for MORE death and destruction to be visited upon Jews as well as the world in general. btw, church types are deliberately ignorant of history and deny the epic tragedy of WWII during which the entire continent of Europe was devastated as well as most of mainland China and the nations of the western Pacific. 60 MILLION people died during that war......but it doesn't bother you a bit does it? It doesn't affect your adherence to doctrine that is neither Biblically correct nor historically accurate.

There is a word for such people. The word is FOOL.

Even as fools walk along the road, they lack sense and show everyone how stupid they are. (Ecclesiastes 10:3)
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. (Proverbs 18:2)

I am not an inquisitor. My intent was to impart truth and wisdom to people who don't deserve it. Inasmuch as I've tried to do so and have been met with resistance at every point it is I who am guilty of the greatest mistake. I tried to convince fools of the error of their ways. My bad.

This is how it will go for you - a prediction of the wise imparted to fools.

You will continue to embrace your false doctrine until one of two events occur. Either Jesus will return again amid circumstances that do NOT agree with your erroneous presuppositions or you will end your natural life in ignorance. Either way you will NEVER be able to learn the deep things of God - for the rest of your natural life. You will only be able to satisfy yourself with clever regurgitations of the same milky vomit you've been swallowing in the past. Nothing new will be ventured and nothing new will be gained. There are words for that sort of religion - FRUITLESS & UNSALTY.

My purpose was to share what I've observed. You've underlined my basic argument and accomplished the devil's work well. Congratulations. The real irony here is that you have no idea what's going on at all - demonstrated by the words you write yourself.

I pity you.

In fact, I seriously doubt you'll even accept that tiny bit of pitiful empathy from me - you're THAT far gone.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You said:
"I fear the perpetuation of ignorant hypocritical heretical imbeciles in the church. These are people who have no problem with being double-minded or arguing in favor of doctrines of demons. Churches in other lands have identified these doctrines as NOT of God, NOT in agreement with the context of the Bible as a whole, as being divisive and heretical (that means NOT consistent with Biblical truth). The whole world, especially in America, is now convinced that church types are ignorant snake oil salesmen with nothing of value to offer anyone. (This is called IRRELEVANCE in theological circles - of which I doubt you are aware.) In truth, they are correct. What is ironic is that despite warnings from all sides, church types ignore it - as do you. Medicine can heal most ailments, but it can't fix stupid."

i got a good laugh from this - thank you

Why do you disregard the words of God concerning the LORD's Return and the gathering of the Saints?
God's words are Truth, to be believed upon and bring us Hope = 1 Thess 4:13-18



But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do I fear?

I fear the perpetuation of ignorant hypocritical heretical imbeciles in the church. These are people who have no problem with being double-minded or arguing in favor of doctrines of demons. Churches in other lands have identified these doctrines as NOT of God, NOT in agreement with the context of the Bible as a whole, as being divisive and heretical (that means NOT consistent with Biblical truth). The whole world, especially in America, is now convinced that church types are ignorant snake oil salesmen with nothing of value to offer anyone. (This is called IRRELEVANCE in theological circles - of which I doubt you are aware.) In truth, they are correct. What is ironic is that despite warnings from all sides, church types ignore it - as do you. Medicine can heal most ailments, but it can't fix stupid.

Learn and appreciate the Biblical virtue of "sophrosune,"

Even amongst fans of the rapture there is extreme disagreement.

You say this like you just woke up. Did you? I know that some people are grouchy when they first wake up. I understand. You know what? God is going to rapture those whom he desires, even those who have incorrect eschatology. Praise the Lord.

(This should tell you something except that you won't listen.)

There are AT LEAST 16 different variations of rapture/millenium/tribulation theories - more than conspiracy theories about JFK's killers. IF the rapture were a legitimate doctrine, which it is NOT, then one would suppose there'd be fewer disagreements.

Why would you suppose that? I wouldn't.

Only a very few scriptures are quoted to justify this aberration, which ought to tell even the most juvenile of scholars that something is terribly wrong with the assumption of truth.

I attribute this to a lack of teaching on the subject of exegesis. But good-hearted Christians have learned how to have a friendly discussion.

As expected you launch into all manner of tangential remarks regarding self-justification with the false doctrine. None of them are valid or even logical, but in keeping with those who expound upon dark interpretations of the Bible you continue your argument unabated.

Did you expect this? Are you sure your expectation isn't clouding your judgment or your interpretation of what I actually said?

Anti-semitism IS related to the doctrine of the Tribulation.

How so. I don't think it is.

Is your memory THAT SHORT? Let me remind you. Jeremiah 30:7 speaks of "Jacob's trouble/distress". Daniel tells us the period will last 7 years.

No, Daniel says no such thing. See! Even YOU lack the correct understanding.

Jesus said it would only happen ONCE.

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN." (Y'shuah/Jesus quoted by Matthew 24:21)

In order to pass off the Tribulation as an event in our FUTURE one has to call Jesus Christ a liar. Is that you? You'd do it if you thought you could get away with it - true evidence of a disciple of the devil.

You are bating me and I'm not biting.

Yes, Jesus said there would be great tribulation, and in my view, the GT began at the stoning of Stephan and hasn't ended yet.

Now, wipe the dust from your eyes. Have some coffee. Take your time waking up.

The time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation began in 1938 and lasted until the end of European hostilities in 1945, a period of SEVEN YEARS.

It began much earlier.

The promotion of the LIE that the tribulation is in the future is a severe example of undiluted unrepentant anti-semitism in the church, for it hopes for MORE death and destruction to be visited upon Jews as well as the world in general.

I have NEVER heard anyone say what you just said.

btw, church types are deliberately ignorant of history and deny the epic tragedy of WWII during which the entire continent of Europe was devastated as well as most of mainland China and the nations of the western Pacific. 60 MILLION people died during that war......but it doesn't bother you a bit does it?

Oh, it got worse than that. Believe me. You don't know the half of it.

It doesn't affect your adherence to doctrine that is neither Biblically correct nor historically accurate.

Which doctrine?

I am not an inquisitor. My intent was to impart truth and wisdom to people who don't deserve it.

I don't believe you.

Inasmuch as I've tried to do so and have been met with resistance at every point it is I who am guilty of the greatest mistake. I tried to convince fools of the error of their ways. My bad.

How is that working out for you?

This is how it will go for you - a prediction of the wise imparted to fools.

You will continue to embrace your false doctrine until one of two events occur. Either Jesus will return again amid circumstances that do NOT agree with your erroneous presuppositions or you will end your natural life in ignorance. Either way you will NEVER be able to learn the deep things of God - for the rest of your natural life. You will only be able to satisfy yourself with clever regurgitations of the same milky vomit you've been swallowing in the past. Nothing new will be ventured and nothing new will be gained. There are words for that sort of religion - FRUITLESS & UNSALTY.

Keep your day job.

My purpose was to share what I've observed. You've underlined my basic argument and accomplished the devil's work well. Congratulations. The real irony here is that you have no idea what's going on at all - demonstrated by the words you write yourself.

I know who you are.

I pity you.

In fact, I seriously doubt you'll even accept that tiny bit of pitiful empathy from me - you're THAT far gone.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Here, there or in the air.

 

[Davy]

The body:

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. [Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”​

There is some discussion concerning what Jesus means by his cryptic statement, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." As one has already pointed out, the term body means "corpse" and of course, a corpse is a dead body. The meaning of the statement is true enough by itself. Vultures typically gather around a dead body. But how is that an answer to the question, "where Lord?" Where will they take them?

How could you not understand Christ's answer to, "Where, Lord?" It's simple.

The Matthew 24 version of His answer...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV


Don't you remember His use of metaphor about the spiritually 'dead'?

Matt 23:27
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
KJV

Luke 11:44
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
KJV

In The Old Testament, the 'eagle' was used as a symbol for both Satan and our Heavenly Father. Why is it applied to Satan too ya think? Well in Isaiah 14, God mocked Satan using his own words with his claiming to be GOD, the Morning Star (a Title only belonging to Jesus). So Lord Jesus' usage of "eagles" in his answer, when vultures indeed are meant, is about Satan's future coming as the "dragon" to fool the whole world into believing on him in place of GOD.

And that... (to Satan and his host of vultures), is where those 1st ones 'taken' will be gathered to. It is pointing to those deceived by Satan and his hosts for the end of this world.