Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

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Food for thought: The first fruits of Israel, the 144,000 male virgins, will be caught up to God in the tribulation period; there will be many Saints in Israel at this time, but only the 144,000 are caught up (Raptured). Wouldn't it stand to reason that there will be a first fruits of the Church to be caught up at some point too, though the timing is unclear (Pre, mid, post)?

Your food for thought is spoiled stale regurgitated sewage.

First published in the work FUTURISM in 1595 by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera the whole rapture/tribulation/millenium dogma was intended to confuse and rebuke the protestant reformation. It has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of the Holy See.

In the mid-19th century, the whole RCC eschatology was dusted off and given a new coat of paint by John Nelson Darby in his work on DISPENSATIONALISM. Darby was neither theologian nor historian, but pretended to be both. Instead he WAS INDEED a consort of witches. No one in the protestant church seems to be of the opinion that's a negative association to consider. Protestants seem to love demons - they have so many leading them these days.

TRIBULATION has already happened.

The prophet Jeremiah said that a terrible time would visit his people Israel (30:7). He called it the time of Jacob's trouble. Jacob is an identifier of the Jewish people as well as a real historic person. Daniel said the period would last seven years. Jesus said it would ONLY HAPPEN ONCE. (Matt 24:21)

The real problem with the bogus ideology perpetrated by fictionalized eschatologists is that they universally CALL JESUS A LIAR.
Did Jesus say it would happen once or did He not?

From 1938 to 1945 the HOLOCAUST caused the brutal unjust murder of over six million innocent Jewish men women and children.

BUT ....

Antisemitic bonehead church types ignore ALL scripture to the contrary and will even deny the words of Jesus to establish their filthy doctrine THAT CALLS FOR ANOTHER HOLOCAUST.

Only Nazis and Protestants want such a thing to happen again. Certainly no Jew wants it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's evident that they are the firstfruits of Israel, as there will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Yes but the first fruits of what of Israel?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the mid-19th century, the whole RCC eschatology was dusted off and given a new coat of paint by John Nelson Darby in his work on DISPENSATIONALISM. Darby was neither theologian nor historian, but pretended to be both. Instead he WAS INDEED a consort of witches. No one in the protestant church seems to be of the opinion that's a negative association to consider. Protestants seem to love demons - they have so many leading them these days.

Romanism has been amillenial for centuries

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The 69th week ended years before Jesus was born. Only Anna and Simeon were still alive from the generation that lived in the 69th week. Everyone else had no clue who the Messiah or Prince of the Jews even was. All had given up hope at some point, years before Jesus was born.

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming of Jesus to the Mount of Olives to finish the 70th week as the Prince to come.

No, the war in heaven is after the 5th Trumpet and first woe, because that is when those angels are loosed from the pit. By the time the 7th Trumpet is supposed to sound, those angels are attacking heaven itself.

There is no human AC. It is Satan who is handed the throne in Jerusalem in the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. There are 10 kings working with Satan. Can you tell which king is placed in a higher position than the others? None of them. They have no kingdom, and will never have one, because they are killed at Armageddon.

Well I thought we were debating Scripture not your own opinions.

I can't argue against your own ideas, for what you said above is not even close to Scripture. Nor is it even accurate historically.

who taught you these things.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes it does. The Millennium Kingdom. The church is not part of the earthly kingdom. Those gathered by Jesus as King after the Second Coming are who reign on earth. The church remains in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE.

The 144k are the firstfruits of the Second Coming and the Millennium Kingdom. The sheep and wheat are the remnants of Adam's dead corruptible flesh after the Second Coming. They are not the church.

The original disciples were the firstfruits of the NT church along with all those in Abraham's bosom. They have been enjoying Paradise since Resurrection Sunday. Multitudes by the tens of thousands have joined them over the last 1993 years. The church alive at the rapture are the last of the church gathered to Paradise. After that point it is all about the Millennium Kingdom.

Well you have Jesus returning at the sixth seal. I assume it is to set up HIs kingdom. but then you have the trumpets and bowls taking place after jesus returns.

So you have the 144K and the multitudes getting saved after jesus returns.

Who taught you this stuff.

 

[07-07-07]

Yes but the first fruits of what of Israel?

The descendants of Abraham.

 

[ewq1938]

Romanism has been amillenial for centuries

And the first known Amill opposed the Canonization of Revelation. It is because the Millennium is taught in that book that the RCC opposed it.

 

[ewq1938]

Well you have Jesus returning at the sixth seal. I assume it is to set up HIs kingdom. but then you have the trumpets and bowls taking place after jesus returns.

So you have the 144K and the multitudes getting saved after jesus returns.

Who taught you this stuff.

It's mainly due to not being able to recognize that the 6th seal describes future events of the second coming, thinking instead that it's described events happen when the seal is opened.

 

[Timtofly]

Well I thought we were debating Scripture not your own opinions.

I can't argue against your own ideas, for what you said above is not even close to Scripture. Nor is it even accurate historically.

who taught you these things.

You do the math, since you don't trust Scripture. I have no opinions. I was repeating Scripture. You telling me the 69th week ended on Palm Sunday is contrived, and not Scripture, nor historical.

 

[Timtofly]

Well you have Jesus returning at the sixth seal. I assume it is to set up HIs kingdom. but then you have the trumpets and bowls taking place after jesus returns.

So you have the 144K and the multitudes getting saved after jesus returns.

Who taught you this stuff.

All right there in Revelation 6 and 7.

 

[[email protected]]

Romanism has been amillenial for centuries

Quite the contrary, the RCC as well as protestants promote the idea of a FUTURE reign of the Son of Man upon earth.

The problem with current eschatology and the basis for extended arguments and assertions is a false understanding of the sequence of events predicted in Holy Writ. Evidence for this critical oversight is the multitude of argument for at least 16 different variations of rapture/tribulation/millenium theory. IF there was a truth to be gleaned amongst all the rhetoric one would assume it would be common to all, except that it isn't - proof positive that the interpretations are false.

Gospel accounts are full of examples of a false interpretation of prophetic sequence of events by the rabbinic pharisees. Uneducated church types like to exercise their 20/20 hindsight and condemn the rabbinate, but continue in the same error themselves. Modern Orthodox Jews, the descendants of the pharisees in birth as well as dogma, continue to cling to their mistaken sequence of events. While they claim to expect the advent of ha-mashiach (messiah) in theory, they deny it in fact. The same is true for American protestants today. Many now claim Jesus isn't the Christ at all. That's how bad it's getting.

As a consequence of this false sequence of events, post-modern church types have lost all cohesion in doctrine. They form small groups and chase their tails like mad dogs in search of something they'll never find - the truth. Indeed many even deny the basis of Biblical prophecy - which is Israel. Even more deny the Bible itself is the revealed Word of God.

Denial of Israel as prophetic substance or the State of Israel as historic fact is a consequence of miopic adoption of interpretation and religious tradition to the exclusion of Biblical prophecy. ALL prophecy centers upon the reality of Israel, not the church, not church members and not the illusory replacement of Israel.

Pointing fingers at the Vatican is useful as a teaching aid, but it should be understood that not all pharisees are Jewish. Many are protestant church types masquerading as experts which they most certainly are not.

In my previous post I stated most emphatically that the Tribulation has already happened. This FACT is deliberately ignored by antisemitic ignorant church types who are extremely out of focus regarding the prophetic sequence of events of the Last Days.

Six million dead Jews PROVE the Tribulation has already happened in real time.

Protestants deny it - as do militant Muslims and atheists. They are in good company these days as they have all betrayed the gospel of Jesus Christ - if not the savior Himself.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The descendants of Abraham.

we know this. but here are historic facts.

Abraham is in heaven.
Israelis were part of the church already
Israelis have been getting saved in all generations
These 144,000 are not he first Jewish martyrs, nor the first to rise from the dead.
They are not the first descendants of Abraham.
So what first fruits are they?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's mainly due to not being able to recognize that the 6th seal describes future events of the second coming, thinking instead that it's described events happen when the seal is opened.

Well this is an opinion that has little weight!

As most of Revelation is presented in chronological order ( I said most) and the seventh seal reveals the 7 trumpets, why would god who created grammar so we can understand speech and writing throw such a curve ball as to in the middle of events of the seals which I am convinced are pre-trib throw and end times event there? Why not wait until REv. 19 when Revelation explicitly describes Jesus second coming?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You do the math, since you don't trust Scripture. I have no opinions. I was repeating Scripture. You telling me the 69th week ended on Palm Sunday is contrived, and not Scripture, nor historical.

It is historical and biblical.

Your 69th week ending long before Jesus is not even in the43 ballpark!

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

So 483 years from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah is 483 years and after the 483 years, Jesus will die!

So no, you did not quote Scripture.

Every prophecy left unfulfilled about the end times has to fit in the last week or 7 years!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All right there in Revelation 6 and 7.

who taught you this.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Quite the contrary, the RCC as well as protestants promote the idea of a FUTURE reign of the Son of Man upon earth.

The problem with current eschatology and the basis for extended arguments and assertions is a false understanding of the sequence of events predicted in Holy Writ. Evidence for this critical oversight is the multitude of argument for at least 16 different variations of rapture/tribulation/millenium theory. IF there was a truth to be gleaned amongst all the rhetoric one would assume it would be common to all, except that it isn't - proof positive that the interpretations are false.

Gospel accounts are full of examples of a false interpretation of prophetic sequence of events by the rabbinic pharisees. Uneducated church types like to exercise their 20/20 hindsight and condemn the rabbinate, but continue in the same error themselves. Modern Orthodox Jews, the descendants of the pharisees in birth as well as dogma, continue to cling to their mistaken sequence of events. While they claim to expect the advent of ha-mashiach (messiah) in theory, they deny it in fact. The same is true for American protestants today. Many now claim Jesus isn't the Christ at all. That's how bad it's getting.

As a consequence of this false sequence of events, post-modern church types have lost all cohesion in doctrine. They form small groups and chase their tails like mad dogs in search of something they'll never find - the truth. Indeed many even deny the basis of Biblical prophecy - which is Israel. Even more deny the Bible itself is the revealed Word of God.

Denial of Israel as prophetic substance or the State of Israel as historic fact is a consequence of miopic adoption of interpretation and religious tradition to the exclusion of Biblical prophecy. ALL prophecy centers upon the reality of Israel, not the church, not church members and not the illusory replacement of Israel.

Pointing fingers at the Vatican is useful as a teaching aid, but it should be understood that not all pharisees are Jewish. Many are protestant church types masquerading as experts which they most certainly are not.

In my previous post I stated most emphatically that the Tribulation has already happened. This FACT is deliberately ignored by antisemitic ignorant church types who are extremely out of focus regarding the prophetic sequence of events of the Last Days.

Six million dead Jews PROVE the Tribulation has already happened in real time.

Protestants deny it - as do militant Muslims and atheists. They are in good company these days as they have all betrayed the gospel of Jesus Christ - if not the savior Himself.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Six million dead Jews do not prove that the tribulation has already happened. They were not even in the land when they were slaughtered and Scripture proves they must be in the land for the trib to begin. I do stand corrected about RCC, they are post mil not amil, but they hold the millenium to be the church age and it goes on for a long long long time and not just a 1,000 years. I call them amil because they reject the 1,000 years as literal.

We can argue back and forth over many things but I would recommend one book to you.

Footsteps of the Messiah by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

He is pre trib, premil, dispensational teacher and brings to bear enormous scripture with little to no allegory to twist passages to mean something different.

 

[[email protected]]

we know this. but here are historic facts.

Abraham is in heaven.
Israelis were part of the church already
Israelis have been getting saved in all generations
These 144,000 are not he first Jewish martyrs, nor the first to rise from the dead.
They are not the first descendants of Abraham.
So what first fruits are they?

These are NOT historic facts, unless you are real busy rewriting history (as many church types like to do).

Israel is NOT part of the church. The reverse is true. Gentile believers, also called goyim, are part of Israel.

he who is a Jew is one on the inside (Romans 2:29)

The church wasn't formed until 313 AD when Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. Upon the issuance of that edict the church was legitimized and allowed to meet without persecution and to hold property (money & real estate). At this point, leaders were legitimized and Papal succession became legal.

It is commonly recognized that Moses received the LAW (Torah) from God circa the year 1446 BC.

It is also accepted by historians both Jewish and secular that the tribes of Hebrews became a nation at the point they received God's LAW.

Therefore the Jewish nation preceded the church by about 1,700 years.

There is NO WAY anyone who knows how to read can accept the church's (RT) LIE that Israel was ever part of the church. In chapter 11 of the book of Romans, Paul explains how gentile believers are ADDED IN to the true vine of Israel - Jesus.

Israelis are NOT part of the church.

Never have been. Ask one sometime. They'll tell you how wrong you are. Of course, being a feral church type one may not pay the least bit of attention to either history, God's Word or Jews and assume only church membership will save.....when it absolutely does not.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

RT - Replacement Theology or Supersessionism is an antisemitic heresy of the church that assumes God has rejected His people Israel and replaced it with the church.

God has said He, "will NEVER leave you (Israel) or forsake you (Israel)." (Deuteronomy 31:6) The church, by the hand of satan, thus SUBVERTS God's divine plan for His people Israel as well as all humanity by declaring itself superior to Jews in general and the Word of God in particular. RT IS NOT TRUE.

 

[[email protected]]

Six million dead Jews do not prove that the tribulation has already happened. They were not even in the land when they were slaughtered and Scripture proves they must be in the land for the trib to begin. I do stand corrected about RCC, they are post mil not amil, but they hold the millenium to be the church age and it goes on for a long long long time and not just a 1,000 years. I call them amil because they reject the 1,000 years as literal.

We can argue back and forth over many things but I would recommend one book to you.

Footsteps of the Messiah by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

He is pre trib, premil, dispensational teacher and brings to bear enormous scripture with little to no allegory to twist passages to mean something different.

You deny the death of six million Jews and the Biblical prediction it would happen?

Only Nazis and fanatic Muslims believe such a lie.

YOU, like the aforementioned inhuman antisemitic hate mongers, would like nothing better than to see more innocent Jewish blood shed upon the land. You disgust me with your doctrine of demons.

What kind of murderous fool are you? Certainly no Christian would wish the repetition of the Holocaust upon God's People Israel.

You are no Christian when you deny the horror of the Holocaust and the death of innocent millions.

No human being in his right mind would EVER join himself to a church that taught such a filthy thing.....unless of course he was an avowed Nazi.

You are disgusting. It's time you repented of your vile hatred and murderous attitude. This isn't a game and it isn't a debate among Sunday School illiterates. It's real and it was terrible.

Or perhaps you'd like to start your terror program by killing me too......

Be aware that these days ISRAEL SHOOTS BACK.

This kind of HATE LANGUAGE is why I no longer attend church and no longer wish to associate with fools who do. Their HATRED is inhuman and their stupidity is a joke to the whole world.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ewq1938]

Well this is an opinion that has little weight!

That's only true of the opposite opinion.

As most of Revelation is presented in chronological order ( I said most) and the seventh seal reveals the 7 trumpets,

The 7th seal does not reveal any trumpets. The trumpets are introduced once all the seals have been. Just because something follows the 7th seal does not make it part of the seal.

why would god who created grammar so we can understand speech and writing throw such a curve ball as to in the middle of events of the seals

Grammar does not support your interpretation.

which I am convinced are pre-trib throw and end times event there? Why not wait until REv. 19 when Revelation explicitly describes Jesus second coming?

Revelation is more complex than you realize.

 

[ewq1938]

I do stand corrected about RCC, they are post mil not amil,

No, they are Amills.

The Rapture

Discover Catholic teachings on the Rapture. Pre, Mid, or Post? Find clarity on the 'end times'. Here's what the Church teaches about the apocalypse."

www.catholic.com

"What’s the Catholic Position?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been “amillennial” (as has been the majority Christian position in general), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called “millenarianism” (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught,” though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue."