WWJD with LGBTQ?

[JohnDB]

We (men) have saddled God with the word 'Sovereign' which implies the domination principle which we then exploit or superimpose.
Does the life (reality) of Jesus reveal this? Washing the disciples feet and his subsequent explanation does not evoke this picture.

WOW...very small god you have there.

Dominion does not require domination.
A parent doesn't completely control a newborn baby's movement because they don't need to. The baby is allowed to flail its arms and legs, squirm, and make faces...because it's harmless and expected.
There is no difference here between mankind's futile efforts versus God's Sovereignty. God doesn't have to dominate to have dominion.

 

[St. SteVen]

All of mankind cannot overrule God's will. And it has not yet despite their best efforts.

The "Last Soul" has yet to be saved....have they been born? Because there is going to be "the last soul"....unknown who, when, where, how, or why this person exists....but there is ONE.

And when they are....it's over. Although things will look as if things are going on as expected as if There is juice left in the wine press of God's wrath....but God is going to throw it all out anyway.

And you are either set apart or in with the crushed grapes.

I'm guessing that TN is in the Bible Belt?
That may have an effect on your POV.
(as my location probably does on mine)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Dominion does not require domination.
A parent doesn't completely control a newborn baby's movement because they don't need to. The baby is allowed to flail its arms and legs, squirm, and make faces...because it's harmless and expected.
There is no difference here between mankind's futile efforts versus God's Sovereignty. God doesn't have to dominate to have dominion.

That doesn't really explain your 5% figure.

/

 

[JohnDB]

That doesn't really explain your 5% figure.

/

Because that's been the traditional statistic going back thousands of years.

Sure Christianity and even Judaism has has spurts of acceptance and promotion....and as Christians we like to focus on these moments. But in truth most of the world has only had acquiescence to Chistianity instead of belief. And most of the world has had a huge amount of deliberate unbelief. Such as the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and etc.

So...5% is the "Netzer" that has been referred to in scripture. That's been the accepted estimated guess by anthropologists for several decades now. Of course its not going to identify each and every individual...but it is fairly accurate IMHO.

 

[St. SteVen]

Because that's been the traditional statistic going back thousands of years.

I would say that it is the institutional church that is being rejected, not God.

/

 

[JohnDB]

I'm guessing that TN is in the Bible Belt?
That may have an effect on your POV.
(as my location probably does on mine)

/

Tennessee is considered the "Buckle" on the Bible Belt as most of the popular denominations of Christianity have their publishing houses in TN. From Cokesbury, Abingdon Press, Thomas Nelson, Lifeway, and many others. Dunno what to tell you...
But location has only a very very limited affect upon my view. I've lived in ALL four corners of the USA from Alaska to NY to Alabama to California and many points in between. (Currently in an undisclosed location)

My views have developed by non religious as well as religious based focused sciences when they are objective instead of biased.

 

[JohnDB]

I would say that it is the institutional church that is being rejected, not God.

/

Most do not differentiate between the two. That is a very very modern and very American culture idiom starting in the Colonial days. So....roughly 250 years or so years ago. But it's not been the standard for most of human history....

Religion was politics and politics was religion. Only in the USA do people actually separate the two. But mostly the tail is politics and the Dog wagging it is religion. Here in the USA it's completely backwards.

 

[Lizbeth]

We (men) have saddled God with the word 'Sovereign' which implies the domination principle which we then exploit or superimpose.
Does the life (reality) of Jesus reveal this? Washing the disciples feet and his subsequent explanation does not evoke this picture.

Myself I do not see the word sovereign (applied to God) as meaning domination at all......to me it means He gives man and devil a lot of leeway to carry out their own will, but that still the Lord in His greatness remains sovereign over all that He allows man and devil to do.......He has foreknown and gone before everything and woven it all somehow into His ultimate purposes. And He has the power/authority to sovereignly intervene, eg, if we pray and ask, or if in His will and wisdom He is disallowing something or solving a problem etc.

But we need to know that the God of the old testament hasn't gone anywhere.....He still exists.......remember how He judged the Canaanites when their transgression had come to the full. Look how He judged Israel.....and then later judged Babylon. There is no shadow of turning with Him and He doesn't change. Look how He even judged Ananias and Sapphira. It's just that in God's mercy Jesus came to run interference (intercession) for those who would be willing to adhere to Him. We are still in that age of grace and mercy, His time of longsuffering which we are to account as salvation.......but that will come to an end at some point. Look for transgression to come to the full as that seems to be the pattern of scripture......the devil given a leash long enough to hang himself with essentially.....the harvest ripening of both sin and righteousness......weeds as well as good fruit maturing......and then judgment will fall.

Mar 4:29
“But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

Wheat and tares in the end of the world. End of the human race......it's not going to be a pretty picture if the examples of scripture and historical accounts are anything to go on, I don't even want to think about it.....and only those in the Lambs book of Life, who inherit eternal life, will go on into eternity. (And those who are alive and remain in that final hour will be rescued off this planet just in the nick of time to avoid being caught in the judgment.)

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you see the contradiction in that statement that I can see?
Is the will of humankind superior to God's will?
What does "the sovereignty of God" mean if it is over-ruled by the will of humankind?

... it is God's will that SOME be saved... ??? ( 1 Timothy 2:3-4)

/ cc: @quietthinker

And yet we know that the broad way leads to destruction. It doesn't lead to life (ie, eternal). And scripture says some are like the beasts that perish, meant to be taken and destroyed. God doesn't owe anyone immortality. He has already given everyone a gift of life in this world for as long as that temporal life holds out....time enough to get hold of eternal life, for those who will....who have been foreknown by Him.

There is nothing to indicate the lake of fire is anything but the end of the road. Show me some scrips that say the lake of fire isn't the end and I will be glad to believe them. What are all the warnings for if it is only a kind of purgatory? Why bother to lose our life in this world in order to save it unto eternal life, if we can have our cake and eat it too? On the contrary, if we try to save it we will lose it, ie, mortality, no eternal life.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you see the contradiction in that statement that I can see?
Is the will of humankind superior to God's will?
What does "the sovereignty of God" mean if it is over-ruled by the will of humankind?

... it is God's will that SOME be saved... ??? ( 1 Timothy 2:3-4)

/ cc: @quietthinker

And just to say, we need to ears to hear........there are things that appear contradictory to human logic, but are not in the Spirit.

 

[JohnDB]

Myself I do not see the word sovereign (applied to God) as meaning domination at all......to me it means He gives man and devil a lot of leeway to carry out their own will, but that still the Lord in His greatness remains sovereign over all that He allows man and devil to do.......He has foreknown and gone before everything and woven it all somehow into His ultimate purposes. And He has the power/authority to sovereignly intervene, eg, if we pray and ask, or if in His will and wisdom He is disallowing something or solving a problem etc.

But we need to know that the God of the old testament hasn't gone anywhere.....He still exists.......remember how He judged the Canaanites when their transgression had come to the full. Look how He judged Israel.....and then later judged Babylon. There is no shadow of turning with Him and He doesn't change. Look how He even judged Ananias and Sapphira. It's just that in God's mercy Jesus came to run interference (intercession) for those who would be willing to adhere to Him. We are still in that age of grace and mercy, His time of longsuffering which we are to account as salvation.......but that will come to an end at some point. Look for transgression to come to the full as that seems to be the pattern of scripture......the devil given a leash long enough to hang himself with essentially.....the harvest ripening of both sin and righteousness......weeds as well as good fruit maturing......and then judgment will fall.

Mar 4:29
“But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

Wheat and tares in the end of the world. End of the human race......it's not going to be a pretty picture if the examples of scripture and historical accounts are anything to go on, I don't even want to think about it.....and only those in the Lambs book of Life, who inherit eternal life, will go on into eternity. (And those who are alive and remain in that final hour will be rescued off this planet just in the nick of time to avoid being caught in the judgment.)

Since Jesus dominated no one....I'm going to assume it's an inherent trait.

Jesus had EVERY opportunity to dominate his Apostles....but did not.
Jesus could have dominated the Pharisees....but did not.
Jesus could have done a LOT of things differently (and been within his right to do so) but did not.

(In case you hadn't noticed I'm in agreement on this with you)

We should never conclude weakness from patience. Just because Jesus was kind and patient does not mean He couldn't do anything.

Look at the man in Gadarenes. "Legion" begged not to go into the abyss....but the pigs going into the sea of Galilee is symbolic of just that. Meaning God does dominate sin and gives it no quarter, no plea, no reprise, and definitely no excuses.

 

[St. SteVen]

And yet we know that the broad way leads to destruction. It doesn't lead to life (ie, eternal).

Oh boy...
We had best not interpret it that way. IMHO

Is God playing sport with our souls? ... And few there be that find it?
A puzzle game with our eternal destination at stake? Wow.

"Too bad. You almost had it. Well, maybe next time. ... "
"Oh, wait, there won't be a next time bwahahaha..."


/

 

[St. SteVen]

And just to say, we need to ears to hear........there are things that appear contradictory to human logic, but are not in the Spirit.

You are claiming that the will of humankind superior to God's sovereign will.
Somehow that makes sense in the spiritual realm? How?

I can hear it now...
"His ways are higher than our ways... beyond finding out... No way for us to know..."

So just accept what the church claims without question and everything will be fine.
"Did you pay your tithe this month, or are you robbing God?"

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, but what is OUR attitude supposed to be? God made pronouncements such as that homosexual acts are an abomination......that is HIS judgment and condemnation. But Jesus said that He came not to condemn but to save and that we are to judge not lest we be judged. So while the LORD can make pronouncements and judgments such as that, I believe our place as believers is not one of judging/condemning but rather an intercessory one to continue His earthly ministry while there is still time before God's final judgment does come. It's hard to pray for God to have mercy and save folks if we are condemning them in our hearts. Think we need to think of the lost with compassion, as being captives of the devil that need rescuing.....just as we all once were. Especially those who are suffering. And leave the judging up to God.

Nicely put…..if someone found us when we were lost, how grateful are we to God for seeing something worthy in us?
As Paul said…in 1 Cor 6:9-11…
”Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

It is clearly stated that people who practice what God condemns will not inherit the Kingdom…and Paul said “do not be misled” because Satan will turn everything upside down and call evil good, and good, evil.
So those who want to justify their wrongdoing are in for a shock. Paul says…”that is what some of you WERE, not ARE.…past tense, not present tense.

Being “washed clean” by Christ’s sacrifice, means not engaging in those things any more.

2 Peter 2:20-22….
”Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

There can be no justification…and no going back….God would love it if all turned away from sin by the willingness of their own heart, out of love for him, and appreciation for the sacrifice of his son (2 Peter 3:9)….but he will not force anyone to obey him, and he does not use fear to coerce us…..he reminds us of the consequences of our actions, and tells us clearly what actions displease him……so are we left with any excuses? There are no loopholes in God’s law. His justice is administered without sentiment.

 

[St. SteVen]

As Paul said…in 1 Cor 6:9-11…
”Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

Wow, what Bible translation is that?
It is really taking some liberties with the NT Greek.

"men who submit to homosexual acts" ?
"sexually immoral" and "men who practice homosexuality" I guess lesbians are off the hook? ???




There are NT Greek words here that only appear in this one verse.

μαλακοὶ (malakoi) — 1 Occurrence
1 Corinthians 6:9 Adj-NMP
GRK: μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται
NAS: nor effeminate, nor
KJV: nor effeminate, nor
INT: adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals

ἀρσενοκοῖται (arsenokoitai) — 1 Occurrence
1 Corinthians 6:9 N-NMP
GRK: μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται
NAS: effeminate, nor homosexuals,
KJV: nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
INT: effeminate nor homosexuals

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Commentary from Colby Martin on 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

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[Lizbeth]

Oh boy...
We had best not interpret it that way. IMHO

Is God playing sport with our souls? ... And few there be that find it?
A puzzle game with our eternal destination at stake? Wow.

"Too bad. You almost had it. Well, maybe next time. ... "
"Oh, wait, there won't be a next time bwahahaha..."


/

No, He isn't playing sport with us.......but many are playing sport with their salvation. The cross is that narrow way........the way of the cross....which involves denying/crucifying our flesh and self-life. Why Christians were called people of the Way. Not everyone is willing to follow (ie, obey) Jesus and walk on that Way. We are to "sell" all that we have and are, in order to "buy" the field where the treasure is hidden. We are told to count the cost... it costs us to follow the Lord and not everyone is willing to pay the price.

 

[St. SteVen]

This video addresses what I wanted to say in my previous post about 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
What happened to grace? Salvation by works?

/

 

[Lizbeth]

You are claiming that the will of humankind superior to God's sovereign will.
Somehow that makes sense in the spiritual realm? How?

I can hear it now...
"His ways are higher than our ways... beyond finding out... No way for us to know..."

So just accept what the church claims without question and everything will be fine.
"Did you pay your tithe this month, or are you robbing God?"

/

When did I claim that the will of humankind is "superior" to God's sovereign will? Not saying that at all. But I think it's self-evident that the Lord allows people to exercise their will generally. It's not His fault when people resist His Spirit.

Still waiting for someone to show me where in scripture the lake of fire and final judgment of God isn't final. Last time I checked, the end means the end.

 

[BarneyFife]

Has it come to this?

... God so loved the 5% that he sent his only son... ???

Was that Plan A, or Plan B?

/

The 5% figure is subject to change in the event of an unprecedented outpouring of The Holy Spirit. Many of the 95 may be holding their cards for the "last deal."

And He did, after all, leave 99 figurative worlds on their own, so to speak, to save ours. So I'd say what we're dealing with here is a gross misunderstanding of the character of God—which is the proverbial hill upon which we are willing to give up the ghost, if I'm not mistaken.

.