Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

[amadeus]

Who said that (here)? For instance, I have to accept your word that you are Christian and your life is hid with Christ in God, but there are doctrines believed which are not Christian, and this is the point of this thread.

It was not you. But... I am certainly not orthodox and have not been since I left the Catholic Church more than 50 years ago. Some people don't doubt that I am a follower of the Lord, but there are a few on the other hand. No, I won't name them, but if you encounter them I am sure you will recognize them as well for you also are not in their camp.

 

[Helen]

As is evidenced in your prophecy thread, many will take but a cursory glance at the 2300 day prophecy without actually studying it in depth. because the ramifications of accepting it go so much against their current beliefs, they simply don't go there out of fear of being sucked into "heresy"...which mindset they have learned from the internet.

That...OR...they have studied these things at length themselves and have come to their own conclusions and opinions of what is being said.

My attitude on seeing it was more like...Hmmm here we go again..more of what TheHolyBookEnd kept pushing at us.

Change of heart and understanding of the word comes via The Holy Spirit when suddenly "the lights go on". .

But hey, what do I know!

 

[amadeus]

Have you read Paul in the NT, filled with depth and scripture. Romans and Galatians, and Hebrews is no small endeavor, and takes prayer and study to understand those books, even simple chapter, and even simple verses.

In scripture there is nothing I have not read many times. If study alone were the Way to God it would be a very different world that we live in today... but it is not. God taught me a very hard lesson about study when I was allowed/drawn back into His fold after leaving Him for 10 years.

So it cannot possibly be the 'amount' (for these forums are pretty limited on text space compared to others, and generally barely allow even the whole of Jude to be posted), and the scripture states that everything is to be in the mouth of two or three witnesses, and thus scriptures are to be provided for each point. So, on your own part, I would recommend asking specific questions, rather than continuing to point out others manner of responses/posts.

The problems I had in those days are now long past and are not my present problems. I trudged along my own way with God reading regularly for many years now, 7 days a week in three languages to get that different perspective as well as to keep up my German and Spanish. I had started doing that, the three languages thing before backsliding, but I was really lopsided in my studies.

One thing a learned long ago now, was not to trust myself too much either. When I was young I was too smart for my own good, and did not get over that when I really began to read the Bible, not for a long time. In 2002 I began walking that long walk back. Don't take any unmarked detours.

Encountering someone now who knows things about God that we don't know is good for us. Humility is good but it is not a one time humbling, but rather needs to become a way of life. Going regularly back to nothing is what has helped to continue growing toward Him.

What I hear is 'complaining', rather than doing what Acts 17:11 shows:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​

Even so! Being content with what we have and letting Him lead us on in our walk and in our search of the scriptures toward what? Toward what He wants us to encounter!​

So, is there any point raised already in this thread, that you did not understand because it was 'too long' (subjective) or too much scriptures (subjective again), and need clarification on, I would ask that you, upon your part, ask specific questions to the point you needed clarified.

No, I have not questions to ask of you now. Thank you for asking. I may have some later.

I do ask some questions, but not on every point with every person. God did give us teachers, but who are our teachers? A little over a year ago they put out my old pastor where I attended. He was 93 then and a man of God like no other minister in one of those five ministries [Eph 4:11] I have known over the years. He was not a great teacher but he had and has a Spirit that his opposers could not tolerate. It was not God who put him out and because I raised my voice, they wanted to shut me down too so I also went out. The right questions at the right time are good things, but there is also the right time to remain silent. When I spoke for that man, it was not time to be silent. [Ecc 3]

When people post, I do not complain about their length of post or their often abused references, but I do point out their abuse of scripture and respond in kind, and in so doing, this takes scripture to unravel their theological gordian knot.

I don't usually complain about the length but mostly I try to avoid anything that looks too long. I seldom even read such posts. I do really tire easily physically and also I have discovered mentally. [I retired from my secular job 19 years ago.] In spite of this I try to follow God here on this forum as outside of the computer. Sometimes it is His will for me to take the time and make the effort to read a long post, but like my former long walks, it doesn't happen too often now. God knows my frailties better than I do. He is able to strengthen me to the task when I simply would not and could not do it on my own. He is able, but also... at times, I still jump out ahead of Him and get in myself into trouble. He is still working on me.

 

[ReChoired]

Even so! Being content with what we have and letting Him lead us on in our walk and in our search of the scriptures toward what? Toward what He wants us to encounter!

God's will for all mankind to encounter (even told us all so):

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

 

[ReChoired]

No, I have not questions to ask of you now. Thank you for asking. I may have some later.

OK.

 

[amadeus]

God's will for all mankind to encounter (even told us all so):

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

Give God the glory!

 

[shnarkle]

Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out together.

I haven't always believed what I currently believe, and it took some time to really think and pray about what I believe, and why, and whether those beliefs were true, had any rationality to them, and were biblically sound. In that searching, I found some of the things I believed were untrue, not rational, and incoherent, even dangerous, but was willing to consider what I believed anyway, and in so doing, was willing to change where needful.

So this thread is for that purpose, that we may all consider what we believe, why we believe it, by some searching, studying, thinking and praying.

For instance, I believe Jesus is returning very soon, yet I did not always used to believe that, or even think on it.

I used to believe that when Jesus said faith could move mountains or allow one to walk on water, or turn water into wine that was all possible because all things are possible with God, but now I see that keeping the Sabbath or refraining from eating bacon is an impossible burden that is only possible for God.

 

[shnarkle]

Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out together.

I haven't always believed what I currently believe, and it took some time to really think and pray about what I believe, and why, and whether those beliefs were true, had any rationality to them, and were biblically sound. In that searching, I found some of the things I believed were untrue, not rational, and incoherent, even dangerous, but was willing to consider what I believed anyway, and in so doing, was willing to change where needful.

So this thread is for that purpose, that we may all consider what we believe, why we believe it, by some searching, studying, thinking and praying.

For instance, I believe Jesus is returning very soon, yet I did not always used to believe that, or even think on it.

I used to believe that Christ frees us from sin, but now I believe that believing in Christ gives us the ability to have free will just like everyone else already has...

 

[brakelite]

That...OR...they have studied these things at length themselves and havminoritye come to their own conclusions and opinions of what is being said

Or rather the many I mentioned dont bother, the rest after the many are removed, leaving a minority, do the study. A small remnant of the minority keep at it until the lights go on...they are the miners who are willing to dig deep.

 

[ReChoired]

I used to believe that when Jesus said faith could move mountains or allow one to walk on water, or turn water into wine that was all possible because all things are possible with God, but now I see that keeping the Sabbath or refraining from eating bacon is an impossible burden that is only possible for God.

What do you make of this verse?

Psa_14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.​

 

[brakelite]

I used to believe that when Jesus said faith could move mountains or allow one to walk on water, or turn water into wine that was all possible because all things are possible with God, but now I see that keeping the Sabbath or refraining from eating bacon is an impossible burden that is only possible for God.

Without Me ye can do nothing.

 

[ReChoired]

Without Me ye can do nothing.

Truly, and all that the finally impenitent think that they do or accomplish, is in reality vanity, and began as nothing, is nothing, and ends in nothing. It will all become ashes.

 

[brakelite]

Truly, and all that the finally impenitent think that they do or accomplish, is in reality vanity, and began as nothing, is nothing, and ends in nothing. It will all become ashes.

My full realisation of this truth several years ago changed my life, and changed the way I looked upon others , particularly in regards my wife who is not walking with God at the present time and suffering from ptsd. I like to remind myself that without Christ constantly abiding and walking along side there is nothing I can accomplish either for myself, or anyone else. This truth keeps me grounded and determined to trust only Him in all things.

 

[ReChoired]

... my wife who is not walking with God at the present time and suffering from ptsd. ...

Sorry to hear it brother. Christ will heal her of that if she so desires it, and will take away the anxiety, the fear, the worry, the doubt, the stress of such things, for He said:

Joh_14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Jer_29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.​

Calvary is her assurance.

Some promises for her, if she might consider them. Christ has borne her sorrows already, and if she will think on that, she will be healed.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.​

Please, share these with her from me, one who cares about her suffering as God cared for mine.

 

[brakelite]

Sorry to hear it brother. Christ will heal her of that if she so desires it, and will take away the anxiety, the fear, the worry, the doubt, the stress of such things, for He said:

Joh_14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Jer_29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.​

Calvary is her assurance.

Some promises for her, if she might consider them. Christ has borne her sorrows already, and if she will think on that, she will be healed.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.​

Please, share these with her from me, one who cares about her suffering as God cared for mine.

Thankyou brother. She has faith..she asks me to pray for her when she feels in need..but does not have the mind at present to pray for herself, but I do know God is working in her life...and that verse from Jeremiah has long been one of my personal favorites.

 

[Nancy]

Have you read Paul in the NT, filled with depth and scripture. Romans and Galatians, and Hebrews is no small endeavor, and takes prayer and study to understand those books, even simple chapter, and even simple verses. So it cannot possibly be the 'amount' (for these forums are pretty limited on text space compared to others, and generally barely allow even the whole of Jude to be posted), and the scripture states that everything is to be in the mouth of two or three witnesses, and thus scriptures are to be provided for each point. So, on your own part, I would recommend asking specific questions, rather than continuing to point out others manner of responses/posts. What I hear is 'complaining', rather than doing what Acts 17:11 shows:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​

So, is there any point raised already in this thread, that you did not understand because it was 'too long' (subjective) or too much scriptures (subjective again), and need clarification on, I would ask that you, upon your part, ask specific questions to the point you needed clarified.

When people post, I do not complain about their length of post or their often abused references, but I do point out their abuse of scripture and respond in kind, and in so doing, this takes scripture to unravel their theological gordian knot.

Hello RC,
I too prefer smaller posts, unless the subject matter is something that really touches me deeply. As far as SDA's are concerned. If you observe Saturday as the day of the week that is the Sabbath, do you also observe all the other stuff as well? Feasts, festivals, moons and such? If not, why just pick one? And, is it true that in the very end when the "two witnesses" (possibly Elijah and Enoch??) will be telling the people that they must worship on a Sat. or they will not enter the Kingdom?
And, another thing that will probably be shot right out of the water, lol but...How do we know that it was a Saturday when God started to create the Heavens and the Earth? We did not even get the names of days until the Babylonians came up with them, and then Rome incorporated them. Can it not be "work 6 days, and on the 7th day, rest and worship? Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father after He said "it is finished"...The Father rested also after 6 days of work...and we know that His days are like a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day to Him. Jesus is Lord of Sabbath and when He finished His work, and said it is finished He also sat on the right hand of The Father. He also broke the Sabbath so, does that mean that Jesus was a sinner?
I am just curious about what you might think of these things.
I must leave for a bit but, will be back later on and will check out your answer

 

[ReChoired]

Hello RC,

Hi again sister Nancy,

I too prefer smaller posts, unless the subject matter is something that really touches me deeply.

Will do the best I know how. I like details. So, will try to guess a bit at what might suit you, rather than myself.

As far as SDA's are concerned.

Seventh-day Adventist if you please, as 3 letters is a bit reductio. The name is a sermon in itself in full. Alpha to Omega, beginning to ending, first to last, author to finisher, Creation to Redemption, union and re-union.

If you observe Saturday as the day of the week that is the Sabbath ...

"Saturday" is technically not the Bible Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Mark 2:27-28, etc). "Saturday" is Pagan Roman time, from midnight to midnight, while the Sabbath of the LORD thy God is from even unto even (or sunset to sunset). While the two timeframes do overlap for a period, they are not the same timeframe. I observe the Sabbath, not Saturday (which word never appears in scripture, just as Sunday doesn't, though if someone were to refer to 'Saturday' I would know what they meant, even if unknowledgeable of the differences, at least until educated)

do you also observe all the other stuff as well?

Hopefully in the following portion of your question, you will detail what you mean by "all the other stuff". In short (Yes, but all in the matter who, what, where, when, why and how (explanation as needful later)), Jesus stated:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.​

Feasts, festivals,

Really the same thing. Yes (anti-type, reality) / No (type, shadow).

Yes (anti-type, reality):

1Co_5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Co_5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Heb_13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.​

No (type, shadow):

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

moons and such?

Again, Yes and No (same as previous). The New Moons in type point to the antitype:

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.​

If not, why just pick one?

I (nor Seventh-day Adventists) get to choose. God has chosen. They all still remain to be kept in anti-type (not type), in the light of the New Covenant (aka Everlasting and Eternal Covenant, Covenant of Life and Peace, etc). More as needful.

 

[ReChoired]

And, is it true that in the very end when the "two witnesses" (possibly Elijah and Enoch??) will be telling the people that they must worship on a Sat. or they will not enter the Kingdom?

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are not people, they are "the Law" (symbolized in Moses) and "the testimony" (symbolized in Elijah). This has already taken place in the French Revolution (more detail as needed). For instance, see:

Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;​

I have a lot more detail on this as needful. It is already past. Most do not realize that we are far nearer the end of all things than they desire to be. This world is almost over. See - Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

And, another thing that will probably be shot right out of the water, lol but...How do we know that it was a Saturday when God started to create the Heavens and the Earth?

"Saturday" did not yet exist (and is again not the same timeframe that God uses (evening followed by morning), but is pagan Roman time (midnight to midnight)), as this world, it's moon, it's local Sol system (planets/stars) had not yet existed. Notice:

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:​

We do know that God keeps track of time from even before Genesis (but that is another matter), but beginning from Genesis, God keeps track of the time, even unto Exodus, and knows the days of the week (even as many people did), 1-7. See Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Mark 2:27-28, and so on.

We did not even get the names of days until the Babylonians came up with them, and then Rome incorporated them.

Sort of true. Yet, that is all really beside the matter, as God simply numbered the days 1-7 (6th being the preparation, and the 7th being His Sabbath).

Can it not be "work 6 days, and on the 7th day, rest and worship?

Not sure what you are asking here. It is work the 6 days, and rest the (definite article) 7th day, as God did. Are you referring to picking and choosing the 6 days to work and "a" 7th to rest? If so, that is counter to the commandment itself. God's rest is a specific day, and no other. It is set in the block chain of time and cannot be altered. Mankind is to worship God 24/7/365. The 4th commandment encompasses the whole frame of time, and the whole frame of creation.

Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father after He said "it is finished".

Actually no. Jesus was taken down from the cross and then laid in the tomb, after He said that. Jesus didn't sit down on the right hand of the Father until Pentecost, when He was anointed in Heaven as the Great High Priest (Psalms 133:1-3; Acts 2:1-3,33; Revelation 5:6) and began the ministration therein the Holy Place.

The Father rested also after 6 days of work...and we know that His days are like a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day to Him.

This is a misunderstanding of Genesis and Peter's statement (which is a citation from Psalms). The Father, Son and Holy Spirit rested in Genesis. JEHOVAH Elohiym. Peter's statement deals with the greater cosmic days "with the LORD", thus the last 6,000 years and the final millennium (7th 1,000 year, the great Sabbath; the Day of the LORD) to come.

Jesus is Lord of Sabbath

Yes, "is" (present tense), and hasn't ceased to be. See Luke 23; Acts; Hebrews 4 and Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 14:6-12, etc.

and when He finished His work, and said it is finished He also sat on the right hand of The Father.

This is a misunderstanding of what it mean for Jesus to "sit". Jesus is also seen "standing" (Acts 7) and "walking" (Revelation 1). Each means something (more detail as needful). The "finished" deals with the Courtyard Service, the Sacrifice, not the ministration. It deals with the laying of the "foundation" (Himself the chief corner stone), not the finalizing of the walls and structure (Temple - us).

He also broke the Sabbath so

There is not a single text in scripture which states this, and very many which are contrary to it (Jesus is sinless, always keeps the commandments (even now), and prophecy itself states this, Isaiah 42:21, and taught all to keep them and to follow His example (Matthew 5)), though I already know which two texts (John 5:18, 9:16) you might think (erroneously so) say that (they don't when studied prayerfully). Jesus Himself stated:

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

, does that mean that Jesus was a sinner?

If Jesus truly broke even one commandment, Jesus could not be the spotless Lamb, nor the innocent blood, and we are all as dead in trespasses and in sins, and hopelessly lost as before.

I am just curious about what you might think of these things.

I will say this as many times as it takes sister Nancy. It doesn't matter what I think, only what scripture itself says. Isaiah 8:20.

I must leave for a bit but, will be back later on and will check out your answer

As you will. If you want details, you will have to ask the questions that are pertinent to you.

 

[shnarkle]

What do you make of this verse?

Psa_14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.​

What's your point?

 

[shnarkle]

Without Me ye can do nothing.

Without God, the Sabbath can be profaned, consumption of garbage is condoned, enslaving oneself to debt becomes pervasive, divorce and adultery are ubiquitous and legitimated.