Johann
Well-Known Member
I like your openness and frankness, being transparent @heartwashed, a good character trait and I am not here to "pick a fight" with you.
Keep strong, grounded and rooted in Christ Jesus.
Shalom to you and family.
J.
Yahweh Says to Adoni
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Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
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We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Keep strong, grounded and rooted in Christ Jesus.
Shalom to you and family.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
The math, if you’re going to use it, must fit the data.
He can support his understanding of the Trinity with the the creeds of trinitarianism and the backing of thousands of trinitarian scholars. You don’t have that support for your understanding of the Trinity.
Is he the only trinitarian who has ever told you that what you’re teaching isn’t trinitarianism?
So the mystery of the Trinity has been revealed to you and trinitarians can gain understanding by reading your commentary on the Trinity, which contradicts the commentary of their scholars and theologians.
The trinitarians can do whatever they want in response to your revelation about the Trinity but that’s a huge red flag you’re waving and alarm bells should be going off in their heads.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
The Bible identifies God by the following :
1.) His names
2.) His titles
3.) His unique attributes
4.) His unique actions
5.) His worship
I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I think this list is comprehensive.
The doctrine of the Trinity( One God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit- Tri-Personal, Tri- Unity) cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sense of the term "theology" - the "study" or "knowledge" of God, and is drawn from the whole Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a harmonization of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL of the Bible.
Explaining the nature of the one God is the whole point of the doctrine of the trinity. That is its goal and, at least within the limits of our puny, temporal human minds to comprehend the eternal, that is what it does. And it it does so by IDENTIFYING God in MANY different contexts that reveal his UNIQUE attributes usually manifested by his UNIQUE actions.
If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are three and ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the COMBINATION of the literary means listed above. These persons are each variously...
1.) CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly ...usually both.
2.) RECOGNIZED with the TITLES of God (Lord, king, savior, etc.)
3.) ATTRIBUTED with the UNIQUE characteristics of God (omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, etc.)
4.) CREDITED with the UNIQUE actions of God (creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation, etc.)
5.) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE.
Please note, I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. Nor am I saying that each person of the trinity is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.
I AM saying that
1.) that each person of the trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above and
2.) ONLY the three persons of the trinity receive some COMBINATION of these 5 literary means of identifying and distinguishing God.
Please note that the word COMBINATION, above, is included here deliberately. Think of this combination of references as a literary form of triangulation or "biangulation". In cartography and other two-dimensional geometry, we fix a point on a page, such as a map, by means of "triangulating" (or sometimes "biangulating") its position along lines leading to other locations. Similarly, I am suggesting that we can come to understand the identity and therefore the nature of God, by combining references to him from other points made about him in scripture.
I further suggest that we should not use any ONE means of identifying God, when dealing with the whole Bible. No one can understand the truth of any given matter by systematically ignoring pertinent evidence, after all. We SHOULD be using ALL that God has revealed in his word. And when we do so, its not at all hard to see the depth WHO God really is at least insofar as he has revealed himself, while using only ONE of the means listed above might lead to error. For example, it would be a mistake to assume that because the Bible calls idols, mere blocks of wood or stone "god" (אלהים - "elohiym"), thereby using method number 1 or 2 above, that means those idols really are or at least represent the one true God of Israel. Obviously that is false. In fact, Isaiah goes to great pains to record God's own words that distinguish him from those "dumb idols" by making it clear that God is the creator of the universe in Ish 42-44 and therefore appeals to his unique attribute of omnipotence and his unique actions (as creator) to distinguish God from all that is CALLED "God" but is NOT God.
Following this same kind of literary analysis you will find that, for example...
The Bible does not attribute creation (a UNIQUE act of God alone) to any person other than those to whom it ALSO refers to as "God" by name or title and to whom it also attributes other unique actions or attributes that identify "God". Following this example, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (and ONLY these three persons) are all called "God" AND attributed with the unique act of God we call "creation". That is "triangulation" from scripture that identifies who God is, and therefore reveals his nature to us.
Looking at it from another point, the Bible does not call anyone "God" (in the proper sense - meaning THE one and only God) to whom it does not attribute the UNIQUE actions and UNIQUE attributes of God. That is the same "triangulation" as seen from another point and it also identifies who God is and therefore reveals his nature to us.
Looking at it from the negative, the Bible does NOT attribute the UNIQUE characteristics of God, such as omnipresence or eternality, to anyone whom it does NOT call "God" (by name and/or title) in the proper sense. The Bible never attributes omnipresence or eternality to anyone whom it does not call "God" and/or shows being worshiped. There are only three persons in the whole Bible who meet this criteria for identifying God.
Here is another example. The Bible shows ONLY those persons being worshiped who are CALLED "God" at some point AND to whom it assigns the unique attributes of God (such as omnipresence, omniscience or eternality).
The list of examples could go on, looking at any reference to someone whom the trinity identifies as a "person" of God and seeing if that person is ALSO identified as God by some combination of the OTHER means. (Or ...by looking at any reference to one of the persons identified relative to one of the 5 means listed above as God and seeing if that person is ALSO identified as God with the other means listed above and then checking to see if He is called "God"). But I think you get the point.
Again, please understand (and let us dispense with much pointless quibbling by understanding this) I am NOT saying that ALL persons receive ALL forms of reference and certainly not consistently without variation. I AM saying that 1.) EACH person of the trinity is identified as God by some combination of these 5 reference points and 2.) ONLY the persons of the trinity are thus identified in the Bible.
A true understanding (within human limits) of who God IS is essential to a valid relationship with himself according to his own purpose. No valid, systematic theology can be drawn by reducing or eliminating scriptural evidence. We must account for ALL of God's revelation to come to a realization of who God is and what he has done and therefore what his very nature is. God has revealed himself to us in different ways at different times as the Biblical revelation unfolded over time according to His eternal purpose. It is ONLY in accounting for ALL of this revelation that we can know Him as he has revealed Himself.
But theology is not salvation. It is in Christ that we find God fully and sufficiently manifested to us human beings, AS a human and for his own glory. And it is only through his Holy Spirit that we can know him and be saved by his grace.
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Correct and God is Tri-Personal, Triune , Trinity is One God who is 3 in Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I’ve been doing this a long time now. I recognize the argument when I see it. It is mine.
You sound like a trinitarian. @heartwashed doesn’t sound like a trinitarian.
Your voice is the voice of historical orthodox trinitarianism. I’d recognize it anywhere. It’s been around for a very long time.
His voice is the voice of something else, which he insists is trinitarian.
When the voice of something else (whatever the “else” may be) says to a trinitarian, “Listen to me and you can gain understanding” the voice of something else is inviting the trinitarian to leave trinitarianism.
I’m a Jewish monotheist. I’m the voice of something else. You recognize it immediately, as you should.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
You are correct his views do not pass the "orthodox " test of Christendom when it comes to the Trinity.
I've been debating the Trinity online for 20 plus years and depending on whom I conversing with I can be what I call an "orthodox" Trinitarian and argue it from that POV or what I like to say a "Biblical" Trinitarian and leaving out all of the "creeds" of Christiandom and making my argument from Scripture alone leaving out all of the "unbiblical" terms/phrases associated with Trinitarianism. It is a distinction with a difference and depending who I'm speaking with that are anti-creedal opponents then I will stick solely with Scripture to remove that argument/objection only use biblical terminology in defending the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the One God.
And most of my debating online has been with unitarians followed by modalists. I can smell a modalist a mile away lol.
hope this helps !!!
I’ve been doing the same, online, since circa 1997. Prior to that, offline.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I’ve been on many forums. This is the only one I’m currently active on.
What about you? Are you currently posting on other forums? )People like us typically are.)
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
ok thanks that is where I have done most of my online debating with non trinitarians over the past 20 plus years
Do you recall the names of any of the other forums you’ve been on? It’s possible that we may have been on them, at the same time or at different times.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I’ve been on many online forums. I was sitting here trying to remember some of their names. Zola Levitt had a forum called the Zola Board. There was one called Bible Discussion. Another called Theology Forums. A recent one that started a few months ago called White Horse. Probably another half dozen or so that I’m not remembering off the top of my head.
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