Yahweh Says to Adoni

[Matthias]

The Holy Ghost's purpose is to glorify Jesus...therefore He doesn't often bring attention to Himself.

I’m thinking as I eat lunch this afternoon about the Trinity you presented to me; the Trinity as you believe the Trinity to be.

What do I see?

The Trinity is 1 self and 3 selfs, two YHWH’s, and the Holy Ghost.

Have other trinitarians ever stated objections to your understanding of the Trinity?

 

[Wrangler]

The Spirit that dwelt in Jesus Christ simply left His body; and that is how He died.

How he died is not the point. God is unchanging and eternal. That Jesus died is simply proof that he is not God.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus, being the Son that was given, shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

Not sure why you think Is 9:6 pertains to Jesus since the Jews reject this claim but it refers to someone born centuries before. Son's are not their Father's.

 

[Wrangler]

The fact that He was in human form

The Bible repeatedly states the man Jesus, not merely the form of a man.

 

[Wrangler]

There is one Lord (capital "L") Jesus Christ.

No. The Bible has dozens of lords. All proper noun's would be capitalized, such as Lord Vader and Lord Voldamort. This is distinct from the LORD in many Bible translations, which is NEVER used to refer to Jesus but God, the Father, who alone is God.

 

[heartwashed]

The subject isn’t YHWH. YHWH speaks to the subject, an unidentified man. It’s only in the NT that we find out that it’s referring, ultimately, to the Messiah.

The Messiah is YHWH ("The everlasting Father") according to Isaiah 9:6.

The Hebrew word in verse 1 is adoni.

Clearly you are here rejecting the scholarship of the blue letter bible; which I have provided above in post # 84 (Yahweh Says to Adoni) above.

“The Lord says to my lord:

’Sit at my right hand,

till I make your enemies your footstool.’

… the double use of kyrios. The one is clearly Yahweh, but who is the other? Clearly not Yahweh, but an exalted being whom the psalmist calls kyrios.”

(James D.G. Dunn, Unity and Diversity in the New Testament: An Inquiry Into the Character of Earliest Christianity, p. 53)

An exalted being who clearly isn’t Yahweh.

Yes, even in Mark 12:36, there is a double use of kyrios. "The kyrios said to my kyrios."

Since there is one Kyrios (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6), it is clearly speaking of two Persons who are the same God.

“(2) ‘Paul calls Jesus kyrios, but he seems to have marked reservations about actually calling Jesus ‘God’ (Rom. 9.5 is the only real candidate within the main Pauline corpus, and even there the text is unclear). Similarly he refrains from praying to Jesus. More typical of his attitude is that he prays to God through Christ (Rom. 1.8; 7:25; II Cor. 1.20; Col. 3.17), (3) ‘Jesus is Lord’ is only part of a fuller confession for Paul. For at the same time that he affirms ‘Jesus is Lord’ he also affirms ‘God is one’ (I Cor. 8.5-6; Eph. 4.5-6) ). … The point for us to note is that Paul can hail Jesus as Lord not in order to identify him with God, but rather, if anything, to distinguish him from the one God (cf. particularly I Cor. 15.24-28 …)”

(James D.G. Dunn, Unity and Diversity In The New Testament: An Inquiry Into the Character of Earliest Christianity, p. 53)

Bold is mine.

Since there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and YHWH is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18), the fact that Jesus is the Lord indicates that He is, in fact, YHWH.

I’m thinking as I eat lunch this afternoon about the Trinity you presented to me; the Trinity as you believe the Trinity to be.

What do I see?

The Trinity is 1 self and 3 selfs, two YHWH’s, and the Holy Ghost.

Have other trinitarians ever stated objections to your understanding of the Trinity?

No; for the Holy Ghost is also YHWH in my view.

I believe in one God (James 2:19).

No. The Bible has dozens of lords. All proper noun's would be capitalized, such as Lord Vader and Lord Voldamort. This is distinct from the LORD in many Bible translations, which is NEVER used to refer to Jesus but God, the Father, who alone is God.

There is one Lord (capital "L"), (Ephesians 4:5)....even Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

(see also Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, Malachi 2:10).

 

[Matthias]

Spoken Hebrew always has vowels. Written Hebrew sometimes has vowels, sometimes doesn’t have vowels. The written Hebrew biblical texts discussed in this thread have vowels. They’re as recognizable in Hebrew as they are in English for those who know how to read them.

 

[heartwashed]

Spoken Hebrew always has vowels. Written Hebrew sometimes has vowels, sometimes doesn’t have vowels. The written Hebrew biblical texts discussed in this thread have vowels. They’re as recognizable in Hebrew as they are in English for those who know how to read them.

So, adon is basically the same thing as adoni.

Why then the contention over a single letter that does not make a difference in the meaning of the word?

 

[Matthias]

So, adon is basically the same thing as adoni.

Not quite. The vowel pointings make important distinctions.

Why then the contention over a single letter that does not make a difference in the meaning of the word?

 

[Matthias]

I’m thinking as I eat lunch this afternoon about the Trinity you presented to me; the Trinity as you believe the Trinity to be.

What do I see?

The Trinity is 1 self and 3 selfs, two YHWH’s, and the Holy Ghost.

Have other trinitarians ever stated objections to your understanding of the Trinity?

You’ve clarified the picture for me since this post @heartwashed.

What I see you presenting to me now is this:

The Trinity is 1 self and 3 selfs, 3 YHWHs.

Who is God to heartwashed?

The Trinity; 1 self and 3 selfs, 3 YHWHs.

Who is God to me?

The Father; 1 self, 1 YHWH.

 

[heartwashed]

You’ve clarified the picture for me since this post @heartwashed.

What I see you presenting to me now is this:

The Trinity is 1 self and 3 selfs, 3 YHWHs.

Who is God to heartwashed?

The Trinity; 1 self and 3 selfs, 3 YHWHs.

Who is God to me?

The Father; 1 self, 1 YHWH.

Actually, the Trinity that I present to you is one YHWH and three YHWH's.

YHWH is one Spirit, inhabiting eternity, who descended into time and became a Man; and who did not VACATE ETERNITY when He became a Man.

This Man, in His Spirit, is the same Person as the Spirit who inhabits eternity. However, in that He has an added nature of human flesh, His personality is thus changed; and in this He is an entirely different Person (since God does not change and therefore, in that an added nature produces change, God did not change but an entirely new Person in the Triune nature of God was formed).

This Man, when He died on the Cross, released His Spirit back to God the Father who inhabiteth eternity (Luke 23:46).

This Spirit is the same Spirit / Person as the Father who inhabiteth eternity (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

(however, He now has had the experience of being human and therefore He experientially understands humanity; while the 1st Person of the Trinity does not have that experiential knowledge).

Thus you have God dwelling side-by-side with God in eternity (John 1:1).

Nevertheless, can you see how these three distinct Persons translate into being one God and one Person?

For they are the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[Matthias]

Actually, the Trinity that I present to you is one YHWH and three YHWH's.

That’s fine. Thank you.

So the Trinity you present to me is one YHWH and three YHWHs.

x = YHWH

1x = 3x

1=3.

Speaking as a retired civil engineer, all falls down.

YHWH is one Spirit, inhabiting eternity, who descended into time and became a Man; and who did not VACATE ETERNITY when He became a Man.

This Man, in His Spirit, is the same Person as the Spirit who inhabits eternity. However, in that He has an added nature of human flesh, His personality is thus changed; and in this He is an entirely different Person (since God does not change and therefore, in that an added nature produces change, God did not change but an entirely new Person in the Triune nature of God was formed).

This Man, when He died on the Cross, released His Spirit back to God the Father who inhabiteth eternity (Luke 23:46).

This Spirit is the same Spirit / Person as the Father who inhabiteth eternity (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

(however, He now has had the experience of being human and therefore He experientially understands humanity; while the 1st Person of the Trinity does not have that experiential knowledge).

Thus you have God dwelling side-by-side with God in eternity (John 1:1).

I appreciate the time you invested in spelling that all out for me.

Nevertheless, can you see how these three distinct Persons translate into being one God and one Person?

No.

Three distinct Persons translate into being one God and one Person

That doesn’t square with the historical orthodox trinitarianism I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church I was raised in.

@Christophany told me that if I had any questions about the Trinity that he is an expert on the subject and invited me to call on him if I had any questions. I’m calling on him now to ask for his opinion on what you’ve presented. I hope you don’t mind.

For they are the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[ChristisGod]

That’s fine. Thank you.

So the Trinity you present to me is one YHWH and three YHWHs.

x = YHWH

1x = 3x

1=3.

Speaking as a retired civil engineer, all falls down.



I appreciate the time you invested in spelling that all out for me.



No.

Three distinct Persons translate into being one God and one Person

That doesn’t square with the historical orthodox trinitarianism I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church I was raised in.

@Christophany told me that if I had any questions about the Trinity that he is an expert on the subject and invited me to call on him if I had any questions. I’m calling on him now to ask for his opinion on what you’ve presented. I hope you don’t mind.

Modalism

 

[heartwashed]

That’s fine. Thank you.

So the Trinity you present to me is one YHWH and three YHWHs.

x = YHWH

1x = 3x

1=3.

Speaking as a retired civil engineer, all falls down.



I appreciate the time you invested in spelling that all out for me.



No.

Three distinct Persons translate into being one God and one Person

That doesn’t square with the historical orthodox trinitarianism I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church I was raised in.

@Christophany told me that if I had any questions about the Trinity that he is an expert on the subject and invited me to call on him if I had any questions. I’m calling on him now to ask for his opinion on what you’ve presented. I hope you don’t mind.

1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

It is a mathematical possibility if we do not put it in your terms.

 

[heartwashed]

Modalism

No; for I do not see God as wearing different hats.

Is Trinitarianism, modalism? in that the teaching is one God in three Persons?

Suddenly I am teaching modalism because I am teaching the side of the coin that emphasizes the Oneness of our Lord?

Would you not then be teaching Tritheism in emphasizing the three-ness in the Godhead by showing how the members of the Trinity are distinct from each other?

I will say that you would be teaching Tritheism if you are saying that they are separate Persons rather than distinct.

You are no expert on the Trinity.

But I can say just as easily that I am an expert on the Trinity.

 

[heartwashed]

There are a multitude of verses in the Old Testament where God refers to Himself as "I".

I would conclude from those verses that God is a Person.

That is, He is one Spirit / essence (Ephesians 4:4); even as is substantiated in the Trinitarian creeds.

One statement in the creeds:

"The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord; however we are forbidden by Trinitarian doctrine to say that there are three Lords."

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24; Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (James 2:19, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

So, read Ephesians 4:4-6 and/or 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 in light of the above information and what do you find after understanding it fully?

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

 

[Johann]

Jesus quotes from Psalm 110:1, “The LORD (yehôvâh) says to my Lord (’āḏōn): “Sit at My Right Hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool”

The Lord said unto my Lord,.... The Targum is,
"the Lord said in his Word.''
Galatinus (q) says the true Targum of Jonathan has it,
"the Lord said to his Word;''
and produces an authority for it. These are the words of Jehovah the Father to his Son the Messiah; the "Adon", or Lord, spoken of in Isa_6:1, the one Lord Jesus, and only Potentate; the Lord of all, the Lord of David, and of every believer; not by right of creation only, as of all mankind; but by redemption, having bought them; and by right of marriage, having espoused them; and by their own consent, they owning him to be their Lord. The words said to him by Jehovah, as follow, were said in his mind, in his eternal purpose and decree; which he, lying in his bosom, was privy, when he foreordained him to be the Redeemer; and in the council and covenant of peace, when he promised him this glory as the reward of his sufferings; and in the prophecies of the Old Testament, which speak as of the sufferings of Christ, so of the glory that should follow; and when the fact was done, when, after his death, resurrection, ascension, and entrance into heaven, he was placed, as follows:
Sit thou at my right hand; of power and majesty; expressive of the honour done to Christ, and the glory put on him in the human nature, such as angels nor any creature ever had, Heb_1:13, it being always accounted honourable to sit at the right hand of great personages, 1Ki_2:19, and also of rule, and power, and authority; being upon the same throne with his Father, exercising the same government over angels and men; "sitting" is explained by "reigning" in 1Co_15:25. It also denotes having done his work, and to satisfaction; and therefore is set down, being entered into his rest, and having ceased from his work and labour, enjoying the presence of his divine Father; in which is fulness of joy, and at whose right hand are pleasures for evermore: and it also signifies the continuance of regal honour and power; he sits and continues a King as well as a Priest for ever.
Until I make thine enemies thy footstool; Christ has his enemies; all the enemies of his people are his; some are overcome already by him, as sin, Satan, and the world; and the Jews, his enemies, who would not have him to reign over them, have been destroyed: but as yet all things are not put under his feet, which will be; as antichrist, and the kings of the earth that are with him, who will be overcome by him; the beast and false prophet will be taken and cast into the lake of fire; where also the old serpent, the devil, after he has been bound and loosed, wall be cast likewise; and when the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed; till that time comes, Christ reigns and will reign, and afterwards too, even to all eternity. The allusion is to the custom of conquerors treading upon the necks of the conquered; see Jos_10:24.
(m) Adv. Marcion. l. 5. c. 9. (n) In Midrash Tillim apud Yalkut in loc. (o) R. Moses Haddarsan & Arama in Galatiu. de Cath. Arean. Ver. l. 3. c. 17. & l. 8. c. 24. (p) Saadiah Gaon in Dan vii. 13. Nachman. Disput. cum Fratre Paulo, p. 36, 55. Abkath Rochel, p. 80. (q) De Cathol. Arean. Ver. l. 3. c. 5. & l. 8. c. 24.

J.

 

[heartwashed]

the one Lord Jesus,

You are correct in your understanding that there is one Lord in holy scripture...even Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3).

Consider the following.

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2Co 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

In light of this new information, can you still say that Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture?

Consider that if you cannot agree that Jesus is the one Lord in your doctrine in light of these verses, that you don't have the Holy Ghost.

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And therefore do not belong to Christ.

Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Johann]

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Mat 11:25 At that time, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said, Modeh Ani, Avi, Adon HaShomayim vHaAretz, (I thank you, Father, L-rd of Heaven and Earth), because you hid these things from the chachamim (wise) and those with seichel, and to them they are nistar (hidden, esoteric), and you made a hisgalus (revelation) of them unto ollelim (infants).
Mat 11:26 Ken, Avi, for thus it was pleasing in your sight.
Mat 11:27 All things were given to me by Avi, and no one has daas (knowledge) of HaBen except HaAv, nor does anyone have daas of HaAv, except HaBen, and anyone to whom HaBen chooses to unveil him.
Mat 11:28 Come to me, all you who are burden-weary and heavy laden, and I will give you Shabbos menuchah.


Luk 10:21 In the same hour Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach was full of simcha by the Ruach Hakodesh. And he said, Baruch Hashem, Avi, Adon HaShomayim vHaAretz, that You concealed these things from those with chochmah and seichel and You revealed them to yeladim. Ken, Avi, for thus it was well pleasing in Your sight.
Luk 10:22 Everything was handed over to me by Avi, and no one has daas of HaBen except HaAv. And no one has daas of HaAv except HaBen, and whomever HaBen wishes to reveal Him.
OJB


2Co 6:16 And what agreement has the Heikhal of Hashem with elilim? For we are a Heikhal of the Elohim Chayyim [1C 3:16; 6:19] as G-d said, "V'HITHALLACHTI B'TOCHCHEM ("And I will walk in the midst of you" [VAYIKRA 26:12] I WILL BE MISHKANI ALEHEM ("dwelling place of me with them" [YECHEZKEL 37:27]) V'HAYU LI L'AM VAANI EHEYEH LAHEM LELOHIM [YIRMEYAH 32:38] ("And they will be to me as people and I will be to them as G-d." [YIRMEYAH 32:38]
2Co 6:17 Therefore, SURU (Depart!), come out from the midst of them and be separated, says Adoneinu, and a TAMEH AL TIGAU "unclean thing do not touch;" [YESHAYAH 52:11] ERTZEH ETCHEM "and I will receive you”, [YECHEZKEL 20:34,41; Rv 18:4]
2Co 6:18 And I will be to you an AV and you will be to me BANIM and BANOT ("my daughters" [SHMUEL BAIS 7:8,14; YESHAYAH 43:6; YIRMEYAH 31:9] says Adonoi Tzva'ot. [SHEMOT 4:22; DIVREY HAYAMIM ALEF 17:13; AMOS 3:13; 4:13 TARGUM HASHIVIM Rv 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 21:22]
OJB


1Co 12:2 You have da'as that when you WERE Goyim [T.N. i.e., you are no longer heathen pagans], somehow you were influenced and led astray to the ELILIM ILLEMIM ("Dumb idols, idols incapable of speech" CHABAKUK 2:18-19).
1Co 12:3 Therefore, I make known to you that no one speaking by the Ruach Hakodesh of Hashem says, "Al Yehoshua ki Cherem hu" ("a curse of the ban of destruction is on Yehoshua"), and no one is able to say, "Yehoshua hu HaAdon" except by the Ruach Hakodesh.

Yes, I can still say, Yehoshua is hu HaAdon.

J.

 

[heartwashed]

Try saying it in plain English and you might get a better response.